10th Parliament · 1st Session
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The Clerk having informed the Sen ate of the unavoidable absence of the President,
Newlands) took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers.
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The following papers were presented: -
Conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers held at Melbourne, May 1926, on financial relations between States and Commonwealth - Report of debates.
Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired for Postal purposes at Tailem Bend, South Australia.
Territory for the Seat of Government - Ordinance No. 4of 1926 - Industrial Board.
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– On the 9th June Senator Graham asked the following questions regarding hotel properties owned by the Commonwealth in the Northern Territory and in the States: -
I am now in a position to furnish the following replies : -
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Press Comments
– In view of the newly-discovered crime of which honorable members of this Parliament of opposing shades of opinion are said to be guilty in joining hands for the purpose of amending the Commonwealth Constitution, will the Government cause to be removed the numerous pictures in the Library, showing lifelong political opponents standing together engaged in the work of framing that Constitution?
– In the first place, the honorable senator’s question asks me to consent to the affirmation that it is a crime for lifelong political opponents to come together. I cannot agree that there is any crime involved. In the second place, the removal of the pictures referred to by the honorable senator would be a national crime, of which the Government would not be guilty.
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Bill received from the House of Representatives, and (on motion by Senator Pearce) read a first time.
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Debate resumed from the 20th May (vide page 2156), on motion by Senator Crawford -
That the bill be now read a second time.
Senator NEEDHAM (Western Australia [11.7]. - I understand that this bill seeks to amend the Excise Tariff Act for the purpose of providing that absolute alcohol and white spirit for use in universities for scientific purposes shall be free of the payment of excise. I realize how necessary it is for our universities to have every assistance in their research work, and that the use of white spirit in addition to absolute alcohol, free of the payment of excise duty, would enable them to carry on that work more economically. The Minister has given the assurance ‘that the Excise Department will be on the alert to protect the revenue and the public, and I see no reason why this slight amendment should not be made.
– Although I can support this bill, to my mind it does not go far enough. I quite agree with the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Senator Needham) that white spirit should be supplied to the universities free of what I term a hateful impost known as excise duty, but, in committee, I shall submit requests which will have the effect of completely removing the excise duty on all Australian whisky made from malt, or from malt and other grain. As, I presume, I shall, in committee, have the opportunity of speaking at some length on both those proposals, and of laying before honorable members the necessity for giving really tangible encouragement to Australian industries, I do not propose to do so at this stage. But I should like to say now that there is something radically wrong when a Parliament deliberately sets out to penalize a local industry. I am not likely to become eloquent or enthusiastic over a protective policy, but I can become eloquent and enthusiastic when it is a -question of giving really genuine protection to Australian industries. There are four distilleries in Australia, which, although they are said to be under one combine, are manufacturing whisky, and while their output is somewhat different from Scotch or other imported whisky, it is, I understand, a pure malt spirit which will improve with age. .But it seems to me that it is a backhander to the distilling industry for the Government to go out of its way to impose an excise duty of 26s. a gallon upon pure malt spirit, or 28s. a gallon upon blended whisky. It will be said, of course, that the removal of the excise duty on whisky would interfere with the revenue to some extent, but, quite recently, and on other occasions, the Government has told us that its main object is to encourage Australian industries. I do not like the word “ encouragement “ very much in this connexion. I think that if the industries were left severely alone, they would do better than they are likely to do if we penalize them by the imposition of excise duties. For instance, we have fairly well established in * the Commonwealth the industry of manufacturing tobacco, yet on every pound of tobacco manufactured, there is a heavy excise duty. At this stage, I do not propose to ask for any reduction, or for the abolition of the excise duty on tobacco, although I should like to do so, but 1 seriously suggest that the time is opportune for considering the removal of the excise duty on whisky. It may be quite true that, for a limited time, the local distilleries would not be in a position to supply sufficient quantities to satisfy the demand of the Australian people for whisky; but there is no doubt that if, as the result of the removal of the excise duties, Australian whisky could be sold at about 2s. 6d. a pint bottle, it would give an immense fillip to the industry. Scotch whisky cannot be bought at anything like that price, because, thanks to honorable senators like Senator Lynch, it is loaded with an import duty of 35s. a gallon. If the excise duty on Australian whisky were removed, it would be just as profitable for the local distilleries to dispose of a bottle of whisky at the price of 2s., 6d., or a maximum of 3s., as it is for them to-day to dispose of a bottle of whisky at 7s. 6d., or slightly more.
– Does the honorable senator wish to increase the inducements to drunkenness?
– I do not. It is a great slander, especially on the wealthy people of this country, to suggest that if whisky were made cheap, and its quality improved, drunkenness would increase. Senator Thompson must be well aware that there are thousands of persons in Australia whose cellars are well stocked with ales, wines, and spirits, but who partake of those necessary beverages in moderation. It is only when men are deprived of the right to obtain alcoholic liquor that they make an unholy rush f or it, and sometimes consume more than they can conveniently carry. I resent the suggestion that drunkenness would increase if whisky or any other spirit were made available at a more reasonable price. When the measure is in committee I intend to move that sub-items d and e be omitted. That will give the real protectionists in this chamber an opportunity to provide the distillers in Australia with genuine protection, and lead the way to the abolition of the excise duties on tobacco and other commodities manufactured in the Commonwealth. Briefly, sub-item d imposes an excise duty on whisky wholly distilled from barley, and sub-item e an excise duty on. blended whisky distilled partly from barley and partly from other grains. I cannot imagine anything more absurd, mischievous or destructive to an Australian industry than to place a heavy excise duty on every gallon of spirit produced. During the debates on the Customs Tariff Bill it was frequently stated that protective duties were imposed to prevent the importation of foreign goods, and so to give greater advantage to the locallymanufactured commodities. The spirit industry is protected by heavy Customs duties, but I desire to go a step further and to entirely remove all obstacles in the way of producing whisky, at a reasonable price, either from barley or from barley and other grains.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Bill read a second time.
In committee:
Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.
The Schedule.
.- I move- -
That the House of Representatives be requested to insert after the figure “ 2 “ the words - “ by omitting the whole of sub-items (d) and (e).”
Sub-items d and e read -
If my request is adopted these sub-items will be deleted.
– What is the effect of the honorable senator’s request?
– To reduce the excise revenue by the nominal sum of £1,507,000. Although we are not discussing the financial position of the Commonwealth, we are all aware that for years we have had an overflowing Treasury. The Government has been at its wits’ end to know what to do with the surplus money at its disposal, and has been handing over large sums to the States for road-making purposes, and also paying bounties right and left.
– Is not road construction necessary work?
– Yes; but roads are being constructed with money collected from the consumers of whisky. Those whose land has increased in value in consequence of better roads should pay for the cost of construction.
– I rise to a point of order. I desire to know if, in discussing an excise tariff schedule, the honorable senator is in order in referring to road construction ?
– The honorable senator is not in order, and I ask him to confine his remarks to the question before the committee.
– It is anticipated that £10,700,000 will be collected this year in the form of excise duties. Fortunately, tea has never been taxed, although there are some ultra-conservatives in this Parliament who favour such a proposal. The imposition of these excise duties will not have the effect of reducing the consumption of whisky, but it will make it more costly. My objection to the impost is that it is levied upon firms in proportion to their output. I have heard illinformed people suggest that the working man of Australia has adopted the go-slow policy. I cannot imagine anything more detrimental to the progress of an industry than for it to be taxed in proportion to its output. This form of taxation is an incentive to go slow. It penalizes the employment of capital and tends to drive capital out of the country; although I do not know where it goes. If my requested amendment is agreed to the consumption of Australian whisky should substantially increase, and the imports decline toa corresponding extent. I understand that none of these taxes are levied on spirits or tobacco consumed at Government House. That is an excellent idea. The same principle should be applied to Canberra, and so make the place more attractive to quite a number of people. I have submitted my request in order that those honorable senators who are genuinely in favour of removing an unfair impost on an Australian industry may have an opportunity to register their views. They need not be greatly concerned about its effect upon the revenue, because the financial relationship of the Commonwealth and the States is more or less in the melting pot, and as we shall be called upon shortly to deal with legislation affecting that matter any loss of revenue from the abolition of the excise duties on this item can be adjusted. Last night, on the item dealing with picture films the committee insisted upon an increase in the duty on foreign films to the extent of about £80,000. The Government did not seriously object to that addition to the revenue, so why should there be any objection to my request in this item, even if it does mean a loss in revenue to the extent of £1,200,000. Ministers cannot take everything without expecting to give something in return. I hope that the genuine supporters of Australian industry in this Chamber will vote for my request.
Request negatived.
Schedule agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without request; report adopted.
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.- I move-
That the bill be now read a second time.
It is very appropriate that following upon the consideration of the tariff which has such an important effect upon our primary and secondary industries, we should now be called upon to deal with a bill the object of which is to enable our primary and secondary industries to become more efficient, and so return to those engaged in them reasonable profits under reasonable wages and living conditions. Australia has a very high standard of living. Generally speaking, employees in this country enjoy high wages, and work short hours under good labour conditions. Since Australia depends almost entirely for her prosperity on the export of her primary products which have to be sold in the markets of the world, in competition with products from countries where the standard of living is not nearly so high as in Australia, Ave should neglect no opportunity to put our producers in a position to meet that competition. Experience has shown that only with proper organization and by attaining and maintaining the highest standard of efficiency, is it possible for primary production to be carried on successfully, with a high standard of wages and under reasonable labour conditions. We cannot extract from a quart pot more than is put into it. The prosperity of Australia cannot be ensured in association with any go-slow policy. This must spell ruin. I am one of those who believe that the Australian working man and the Australian primary producer have few equals and no superiors in the world. But, unfortunately, there is a tendency amongst a certain section of this community to deprecate the application of energy to the maintenance of efficiency in production, of which we have been so proud hitherto, and to preach the gospel of inefficiency, which, as I have said, must spell ruin if it has general acceptance in this country. In some countries that compete with Australia in the markets of the world, primary production is carried on by inefficient methods and with cheap labour working long hours. In certain countries, for example, the people still use the wooden plough drawn by oxen, and even by human beings. If they adopted modern methods, and could still command an abundant supply of cheap labour working longer hours, we should have to say goodbye to our present high standard of living. During the last few years it has been my privilege to preside over a department that is directly concerned in the development of the cotton industry. Cotton in many parts of the world is produced, by cheap, and, generally, coloured labour. It is true that a considerable portion of the American cotton is now grown by white labour, but possibly with that exception cotton is grown by coloured labour. This product varies greatly in quality and texture - two factors which determine its price. Now what is true of cotton is true of practically all primary industries. We have demonstrated that, provided that we aim at producing cotton of the highest quality, that product may be grown profitably in Australia by white labour under a high standard of living. The great bulk of our crop, however, must be of the very best quality. In this industry, as in many others, there is plenty of room at the top, though the bottom and the middle are exceedingly crowded. Our only hope, therefore, is to produce the very best quality cotton. Subject to this condition and to another essential, to which I shall refer later, the industry can be carried on by white labour under Australian conditions of living.
– Without being bolstered up ?
-It will need support in its earlier years, just as many other primary industries - notably the butter industry - have required assistance. Australia must ask itself how it can obtain products of the highest quality, and a system of marketing by which it can secure for its products the highest prices on the markets of the world. There is always room at the top, and if our producers can obtain the best prices in the world’s markets, it will be possible for this country to maintain its present high standard of living. Only under such conditions can progress be made. There are two factors to be considered. The first is the human element-labour and capital - and the second the mechanical factor - the application of science to industry As to the human factor, this, and the bill accompanying it, do not touch it ; but the Government has other legislation that it hopes will have an important effect in that regard. In the present bill we are dealing with the application of science to industry. No matter at which of our industries we look, we see many handicaps that could be removed by the application of science and scientific research. The wool industry stands above all other primary industries in Australia as the great producer of wealth. But, successful as it has been, it could have been more successful, and could have produced more wealth, had it not been for certain hindrances in the shape of pests and disabilities that either depreciate the quantity or the quality of our wool. One thinks at once of the blowfly pest, and similar evils. Science, in the last 25 years, has been doing wonderful things for the world at large; but to be successful it must be organized. Sporadic, casual, and even voluntary efforts by scientists suffer the same disabilities as spasmodic efforts in any other activities. The application of the human mind to scientific research gives no guarantee of profit to the individual. Some of the greatest benefactors of the human race have died in abject poverty, while others who never raised a little finger to assist the community have made huge fortunes as a result of the scientific researches of such people. If, therefore, science - the handmaid of industry - is to be organized and directed along right channels, the Government, acting for the whole of the people, has an obligation upon it to assist scientific men, and to set them apart for their particular duties, in order that they may not suffer, and that their work shall bring them some recompense, and be done in an orderly fashion. Australia possesses many advantages. Only those who have travelled in other countries realize how blessed by Providence Australians are. It is true we have some natural enemies of our flocks and herds, but, as compared with other countries, we enjoy a magnificent heritage in our freedom from pests and diseases of animal and vegetable life. The pests that are here have been introduced as the result of malevolent negligence, stupidity, or mere caprice. The scientists who specially study insect life have in the last quarter of a century discovered that, whereas the old system of dealing with insect pests was that of destruction by what I may call human agencies, the new system - that of combating them by means of parasites of the pests themselves - offers greater prospects of success. All who have even an elementary knowledge of primary industries are aware that, although in the past fungus pests in orchards have been mainly combated by means of sprays, the introduction of a particular variety of the ladybird has done more for the orchardists than all the sprays and human labour combined. This was due to scientific discovery. There is not one of our primary industries that has not already received incalculable benefit from the application of science to industry, and not one of them that will not in future receive even greater benefit, if we direct scientific research along the right channels, and assist scientific men to carry on their beneficent work. Consider the success in wheat production that has followed the introduction of superphosphates. This was a purely scientific discovery. I was born inSouth Australia, and I lived for some years in the agricultural districts of that State. I remember the time when the average wheat crop in one of the richest districts of South Australia was 4 bushels to the acre. I saw a crop that, judging by appearances, such as the growth of the flag and the thickness and height of the stalk, looked as if it might yield 30 or 40 bushels to the acre. It was as high as the fence surrounding it and as level as a billiard table. To the eye of the uninitiated there was every prospect of an excellent harvest. But when the stripper was put into the crop it gave the miserable return of 4 bushels to the acre. Why? Because the red rust and other diseases had taken from the farmer the reward of his labour. I saw harvests fail in that district, not because there was insufficient moisture in the ground - although that was thought to be the cause at the time - but because, as the application of fertilizers has since proved, the soil had been exhausted through the farmer not having put back into it what he had taken out. In 1885, in the district of Yorke Peninsula, where I lived, there was not one solvent farmer. They were prevented from going through the bankruptcy courts only because the banks to whom they were hopelessly mortgaged dared not make them insolvent. Had they done so, it would have brought down the whole commercial fabric of the State. When I left there, farms could be purchased at 25s. an acre on the walkinwalkout principle. Then superphosphates were discovered, and in 1898, when I returned, I found the whole place pulsating with prosperity. The farmers had built new houses, and the average return in the district had increased from 4 to 12 bushels an acre. I believe the returns are even higher at the present time.
– To what extent did the land increase in value?
– It increased from 25s. to £12 and £15 an acre. Contrary to Senator Grant’s beautiful theory, however, the increment did not go to some greedy, grasping landlord, but to the men who during those hard years had worked and starved, and they richly deserved the success that they eventually achieved. The increase in crop was not obtained because they worked harder or longer than other people, but simply because the chemist had discovered the secret of the application of chemical fertilizers to the soil. One could quote numerous instances to show how the application of science to industry has brought splendid rewards.
This, I think every honorable senator will admit, is a belated bill. During the war the ex-Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) saw the necessity to do something in this direction, and he introduced the measure establishing the original Institute of Science and Industry. I am not going to place blame on any shoulders for what has happened since. It is easy to blame, but it is no use repining over the past. Although the institute has had an unfortunate history, it must be admitted that it has rendered very useful service. While it has had many disappointments, it has some laurels. It has not had that financial support that it should have received. It was unfortunate in the first instance in losing the late Dr. Gellatley at a time When he was putting it into operation.
– His death was a great loss to the Commonwealth.
– Yes. Our duty now is to try to make amends and do better in future. This bill is an. honest effort on the part of the Government to establish the institution on right lines, and I feel sure it will receive the unanimous support of the Senate, although honorable senators may differ on some of the points. The need for the establishment of a Council for Scientific and Industrial Research has been discussed on many occasions, and the arguments for national research are well known. In all civilized countries it is recognized that from time to time national problems arise, the solution of which can not be left to private enterprise. Theproblems are of such magnitude and of such general interest and importance that their investigation is appropriately regarded as a matter for governmental action. Thus, Great Britain has her Department of Scientific and Industrial Research endowed with a capital fund of £1,000,000, and enjoying an additional vote of nearly £400,000. Germany has her Kaiser Wilhelm Research Institute, France her various national research organizations, America her numerous federal research bureaux, Canada her Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, and so on. In common with all those countries, Australia also has her own special problems, for the solution of which she cannot rely on scientific work in other countries. Research by governments is therefore just as necessary in Australia as it is in other countries. It is hoped that the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, as constituted by this present bill, will contribute in no small measure to that end. lt is not intended that the new organization shall in any way be of the nature of another large department or organization, superimposed on the scientific institutions which already exist in this country. Many individuals and organizations are, of course, undertaking research work in Australia; but, generally, they are working with local ends in view. There is no machinery or organization readily available to give them a national character. In May, 1925, iu order to obtain further advice on the future work of the Institute, the Government convened a conference of leading scientific and business men drawn from all the States of the Commonwealth. They advised that work could appropriately be concentrated upon a few major problems such as liquid fuels, cold storage, forest products, animal pests and diseases, plant pests and diseases, and secondary industries, and that such a programme would involve the expenditure of about £100,000 per annum.
– Including £23,000 per annum for overhead expenses.
– Further advice was obtained as a result of the visit to Australia of Sir Frank Heath, Secretary of the British Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. This visit took place towards the end of 1925, and arose out of an invitation issued by the government. Sir Frank Heath furnished a report, which has been printed as Parliamentary Paper No. 20. Briefly, this report after suggesting certain specific functions for the reconstituted Institute, recommended that the latter should be controlled by a minister through an advisory council, and that State committees should also be formed. In regard to actual investigations, it further recommended that various sections of the Institute - agricultural, food, forestry, fuels, and fisheries, each under the control of special scientific officers - should be established. In view of the foregoing recommendations, the Government has decided to reorganize the Institute and to place its control in the hands of a council, assisted by State committees. The council will consist of (a) Three members nominated and appointed by the Commonwealth Government, one of whom shall be chairman; (6) the chairman of each State committee; and (c) such other members as may be co-opted on account of their special scientific knowledge. The Government has already taken action in this direction and has appointed three members - Mr. Julius, Mr. Newbiginand Dr. Rivett - who will form the Executive Committee, and who have already held a number of meetings in order to pave the way for the work of the council. Sir Frank Heath proposed that the chairmen of the State committees should be elected by the members of the State committees themselves. “While this course would have many advantages, i would have the great disadvantage that a council elected in that manner might not adequately represent the various branches of science and industry, and other interests concerned. The bill therefore provides that the method of appointment of the chairman of the State committees shall be “ as prescribed.” Honorable senators will see that if each State committee elected its own chairman it might easily happen that each would appoint a man of the same type, in which case there would be no diversity of interest.
– We have had some experience of that.
– The Government’s proposal to appoint the chairmen of the State committees should not be regarded as expressing any lack of faith in the ability of the State committees. Its only object is to ensure that the council shall be representative of as many diversified interests as possible. It is of very great importance that the council shall be a thoroughly representative and wellbalanced body, and it is hoped that a council which is representative not only of the main divisions of industry - pastoral, agricultural, manufacturing, mining, &c. - but also of the main branches of science will be secured. In the event of its being found, when the council has been appointed, that there are any branches of science of special importance not represented on the council, the bill provides for the cooption of further members on account of their special scientific knowledge. It is not, however, intended to exercise that power except in special circumstances. Lt is proposed that the council shall meet at such times and places as the Minister may determine. Obviously, it would be inconvenient and expensive for the whole council to meet at frequent intervals. It is proposed that it shall meet not more than two or three times a year. The main business to be conducted at the council meetings will be the formulation each year of the policy of the Institute, and the preparation of annual estimates of expenditure. Part IIIa provides for the creation of a committee in each State. These committees will be a most important part of the organization. As already stated, the chairmen will be appointed directly by the Commonwealth Government. It is proposed that three members shall be nominated by the respective State Governments from the staff of their scientific and technical departments, such as the Agricultural and Mines Departments, and that three others - probably members of the staff of the State universities - shall be representative of science. The chairman and the six members thus appointed will then co-opt two or three other members who are representatives of industries or other interests of special importance in the particular States. The Government desires to reorganize the institute on a national and co-operative basis. Obviously, therefore, the extent to which this object can be attained must in a very great measure depend on the advice and assistance rendered by the State committees, and on securing as members of these committees men who are closely associated with scientific problems, and are prepared to assist whole-heartedly in the work. The main functions of the State committees will be: - (a) To advise the council as to problems to be investigated; (6) to keep in close touch, and to co-operate with various bodies and interests which are concerned in the work; (c) to assist the council in organizing the work carried out in the respective States; and (<2) to make inquiries and furnish reports on matters referred to- them by the council. It is not intended to establish centralized laboratories, but to utilize existing State facilities so far as practicable. Under existing conditions, men carrying on valuable research work in the States are sometimes hampered by the burden of routine work, inadequate facilities or staff, or the fact that they have to devote their attention to several problems at the same time. In such cases the Commonwealth organization will endeavour to assist in such ways as will be most appropriate in the special circumstances. It will be seen, therefore, that the State committees, acting in co-operation with State Governments and university and other authorities concerned, are essential to the scheme which the Government proposes. One of the important matters to which attention was drawn by Sir Frank Heath was the necessity for training men in research work. The general educational facilities available at Australian universities are, in many fields, probably equal to those in any other country. In the past, however, the inducements offered to men to take up post-graduate training with a view to qualifying themselves for research work have been small. Moreover, with certain exceptions, Australia has not yet been able to establish special laboratories, equipped for intensive research in special fields, such as now exist in European countries and in America. For example, in England a Fuel Research Station has been established at Greenwich at a capital cost of over £200,000, and an annual expenditure of £60,000; while at Cambridge there is a low-temperature Research Station which cost £30,000. The Government, therefore, proposes to send a number of selected men abroad for special training at one or other of these institutions. It is intended to pay these men at the rate of about £300 per annum for two years, and to give them a lump sum of £150 towards the cost of their passages from Australia and back again. On their return the Commonwealth will have an option over their services at specified salaries for a period of three years. .Inthis way it is hoped to fill the gap which at present exists, and to build up a body of highly qualified Australian research workers.
– Will that be the subject of agreement?
– Yes.
– Is it proposed to link up medical science with the wak of the Institute?
– No. In view of the change in the organization of the institute, the Government has decided to alter the title to “ The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research.” This appears to be the most suitable title, for the reasons that it is explicit, that it will not lead to confusion with any other existing institution, and that it is similar te the titles of corresponding organizations in other countries. England has her Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and Canada her Honorary Advisory Council for Scientific and Industrial Research. While the scope of the investigations which may be undertaken under the bill includes practically every branch of applied science and industry, the Government proposes that, for the present, cbe investigations undertaken shall be concentrated mainly on the following groups of problems: - (i) Liquid fuels, (ii) cold storage and preservation of foodstuffs, (iii) forest products, (iv) animal diseases and pests, (v) plant diseases and pests, and (vi) fruit-growing problems. The field of work requiring attention is by no means completely covered by the above groups, but it is considered that valuable results are more likely to be achieved by concentration than by diffusion of effort. The bill also appropriates the sum of £250,000, which is to be paid into a trust fund for the purposes of the institute. Expenditure from such trust fund will be controlled by the estimates submitted to and approved by Parliament. This amount is additional “to a sum of £100,000 to be appropriated under another bill for special purposes of the institute. The amount set aside this year will be £350,000. The £250,000 which this bill appropriates is to constitute a fund from which the institute will draw to meet the expenditure incurred in connexion, with its various research activities. The other £100,000 is for other purposes, which I shall explain in connexion with a subsequent measure.
– Will it be an annual grant ?
– No. It is to guarantee to the institute an. amount upon which it can draw during the next two years. The expenditure from this fund will come up for review by Parliament.
I feel sure that the main principles of the bill will commend themselves to honorable senators; and in view of the nature of the business that confronts us next week I ask them to agree to this measure being considered forthwith.
– In ordinary circumstances I should have asked the Leader of the Government in the Senate (Senator Pearce) to allow an adjournment of the debate on such an important measure as this which he has so ably explained to us this morning, but in view of the urgent and important business with which we shall shortly have to deal, I will not do so on this occasion. The only objection to the bill is, as the Minister has stated, that it is somewhat belated. Its importance cannot be over estimated. From the examination which I have been able to give it, this measure appears to be a great advance on the Institute of Science and Industry Bill which was introduced in 1920. Great things were expected of the institute. In saying that it did not come up to our expectations, I have no intention of reflecting upon any individual associated with it. I agree with the Minister (Senator Pearce) that this is not the time for recriminations or for fault-finding in regard to the past work of the institute. Our task now is to endeavour to formulate a scheme which will be of future advantage to Australia. At the same time, we must realize, as I have said, that the institute has not come up to our expectations, and mainly because it has been hampered financially. No one can claim that it had placed at its disposal sufficient money to enable it to carry on its work effectively. Time after time application was made for further funds, but each application was refused. The fact that £350,000 is to be set aside this year for expenditure by the new council is an indication that the old institute was crippled by lack of funds. The bill, which goes considerably further than the old act, is mainly based on the report of Sir Frank Heath, a very eminent scientist, whose report I have read with a great deal of interest. It is most educative to a layman. While I am not in the habit of praising the Government, I must admit that it did well to invite such an eminent scientist to visit Australia so that it might get the benefit of his advice as the result of his observations of Australian conditions. Sir Frank Heath spent in all about five months in the Commonwealth. The bill proposes to reorganize the Institute of Science and Industry, and put it on an entirely new basis. The institute is now to be controlled by a council, three of whom are to be nominated by the Minister for the time being administering the act, and appointed by the Governor-General, and one of whom is to be appointed by the Governor-General as chairman. The old bill passed in 1920 provided for one director. A bill was introduced in 1919 providing for three directors, but the Minister who introduced the 1920 bill in the Senate explained that it was thought advisable to have only one director, because as a rule boards had not the happy knack of dispatch in business matters.We have had an experience of one-man control of the institute, and I hope that we shall profit by the lesson it has taught us. The functions of the institute are greatly extended by the measure before us. One feature which I appreciate is the fact that its activities will be supplementary to those of the State bodies already in existence. I should not be very pleased with a proposal to give the Commonwealth Institute absolute control of all the scientific activities of the continent, overlapping, and in some cases conflicting with, work already carried on by the States. The most important feature of the measure is the proposal to apply science to industry. Applied science is one of the greatest factors in the progress and development of a country. Wonderful strides have been made by the application of science to industry. During the war the world was amazed at the strides made by science in directions designed for the destruction of human life, and we now should be eager to turn it to the saving and building up rather than the destruction of human life. To a young country like Australia, with its vast spaces, and with a people full of virility and energy, a measure of this kind is absolutely necessary, but, as the Minister has said, our task is not so much to calculate what energy we have as to so direct it that it will not be wasted. We are lacking the necessary scientific assistance in agricultural, pastoral, mining, and manufacturing industries.
– I did not gather from the Minister that those industries were covered by this bill.
– From my reading of the bill, I believe that it will apply to all the pursuits I have mentioned, and also to the health of the community, another matter which is absolutely essential to national development. Senator Pearce has spoken of investigations into certain pests. Honorable senators from Queensland know the rapidity with which’ the prickly pear is spreading, and the devastation it has caused. Already the application of science has gone a long way to help to get rid of that pest. As a matter of fact it is more than a pest, it is a curse ; but Dr. Sinclair, of Sydney, who has spent many years studying the problem, is, I believe, on the high road to success in devising means to convert it from a curse into a blessing, by utilizing it for the production of power alcohol. We can easily see the advantage it will be to Australia to have the machinery of this institute in full swing. Honorable senators remember the damage done to our wheat stacks during the war by mice and weevils. Thanks to the work of Mr. Hargreaves, one of South Australia’s most distinguished scientists, it was discovered that, at the cost of about 3d. per bushel, wheat stacks could be saved and sufficiently reconditioned for human consumption. I do not think that science has yet mastered the problems of the blowfly pest, which is doing so much damage to our flocks. That is a direction in which this institute can render a national service. Again, to what better purpose could the work of the council be devoted than an effort to minimize the loss of life from gases and fumes in mines? A great deal has already been accomplished, but much has still to be done to place Australian industries on a better footing. Damage occasioned to our producers is a loss to the whole community. The Minister referred to what he termed the go-slow policy. I do not know whether he suggested that the Australian workman is a slow worker.
– No, I said that it was a policy advocated by a small but noisy section. As a matter of fact, I said that the Australian workman compared more than favorably with the workman of other countries.
– There may be a small section of workmen who suggest
– I referred to both, employers and employees.
– It can certainly be applied to employers who have not installed modern machinery to enable them to carry on their operations effectively. One of the greatest defects of our Australian industrial system to-day is that much of the machinery employed in our manufactories is inefficient, and, in consequence of the uneconomical methods employed, the costs are excessive. I am not casting a reflection upon any particular Australian industry. Those who have travelled throughout Australia admit that many of the plants in large manufacturing establishments are not as well equipped as are those in such countries as America and Germany. That may appear to be a rather sweeping assertion, but when the methods of production in other countries are studied, it must be recognized that in many instances our system is obsolete. To that extent I agree with the statement of the Minister (Senator Pearce) concerning a’’ goslow ‘ ‘ policy ; in consequence of inefficient machinery, manufacturers are handicapped in disposing of their products, which have to compete in the markets of the world. Recently a delegation representative of the working members of British engineering unions visited the United States of America in order to study the industrial conditions of that country. Such a delegation was first suggested by the present Prime Minister of Great Britain (Mr. Baldwin), and, later, the Daily Mail newspaper took up the matter and agreed to defray all the expenses of the visit, without attaching any conditions as to the personnel of the commission or the nature of its report. The commission visited America and presented a report, from which I quote the following: -
The care taken to prevent loss of human energy was conspicuous tin all the American factories. The American visitors found 3½ horse-power at the elbow of every workman. All lifting and moving are done mechanically.
As a result of the application of science to industry, human energy is conserved
Every operation is closely studied. The raising of a workman’s seat from an inconvenient level, at the workman’s own suggestion, for which he received a bonus, has increased his output by 10 per cent.
So far in Australia, and probably in Great Britain, such minute considerations have not been given to the conservation and direction of human energy, and to the comfort and health of the men and women engaged in industry. I do not think we have even started a scientific study of properly directing and conserving human energy, as has been done in other countries. I quote again from the report of the commission -
We cannot afford, said one factory manager, to waste energy that is costing two cents a minute.
That is a typical statement of the American manufacturer, and shows the value he places upon the time of his operatives. The report continues -
There is no boast that any machine is the last word in inventive ingenuity. The position was tersely put by a manufacturer who said, when his plant was inspected,”I have no permanent machinery.” All machines employed on mass production are made foolproof, manned by unskilled labour, worked to their fullest capacity, and scrapped the moment a more efficient tool is produced.
I have seen American machines in Scottish shipyards, which as soon as the slightest defect or deficiency was discovered, were scrapped and others installed. That is the direction in which our factories fail. Points on which the members of the British commission agree in explaining American prosperity include the following: -
The employers undoubtedly won the trust of their men by fair dealing in paying for results, by taking the trouble to understand them individually, and every detail of their work, by care for their health, and comfort during working hours, and by a friendly accessibility when grievances have to be removed. When orders are pressing the employers sole aim is for rapid and efficient production. When times are slack his concern is to improve his factory methods and to economize in overhead expenses, not in wages.
Senator Kingsmill referred this morning, by interjection, to a suggestion for running the institute which would have involved the expenditure of £23,000 in overhead expenses. I da not know whether that statement is correct, hut it is apparent that overhead expenses in many industries are an unnecessarily high charge upon the output. I do not suggest for a moment that the heavy overhead expenses are intentionally incurred. The proposed council should be able to recommend reductions of expenditure in this direction, and thus help both the employers and the employees in Australian industries. If the efficiency of our industries is fully 25 per cent, below that of American industries, it is time immediate action was taken. Greater efficiency means greater production, but every care will have to be taken to prevent over production. We have only to study the extent to which the Ford works in America have developed to realize the benefits of effective organization. To-day Henry Ford is the direct or indirect employer of about 2,000,000 persons. His organization is wonderful, and the efficiency of his works almost perfect. As the result of a high standard of efficiency good wages are paid, production is cheap, and the hours of labour short. For years his workmen ‘ have not been working for more than 44 hours a week, and he now proposes to introduce a 40-hour week, which has been made possible because of the high standard of his organization. I am glad the Government has realized the necessity of reconstituting the Institute of Science and Industry, or extending its powers, and of giving it that financial backing which is essential to enable it to function effectively. It is proposed this year to vote £350,000 to cover the cost of its work, but when we consider the work to be accomplished, and what will be expected of it, the amount is trivial. Personally, I would welcome the ear-marking of a much larger sum.. What would a million a year be to a country such as Australia for the encouragement of the application of science to industry 1 At any rate, a start has been made, and I trust that the Government will not be niggardly in granting the council financial ‘assistance. As I believe the policy of the Government in this respect should receive general support, I welcome the bill, and trust that when it becomes operative it will achieve that which we all desire.
– In briefly welcoming the bill, I wish to offer a certain amount of friendly criticism. I was pleased to hear the Minister (Senator Pearce) acknowledge, in his opening remarks, that the prosperity of Australia depends upon the successful marketing of her surplus products overseas. Coming, as it does, on the heels of a debate on the tariff schedule, wherein the duties imposed, in my opinion, make it exceedingly difficult for that to be done, the Minister’s admission appears to suggest the desire on the part of the Government to recant. Whether or not that is so, it is as well to have it on record that the Minister, as the Leader of the Government in this chamber, realizes that our prosperity depends upon the successful sale of our primary products in the markets of the world. This bill is for the purpose of making that more easily possible. Its object is to encourage the application of science to our primary ‘and secondary industries. There is a very wide field for research. When we look around and see what other countries are doing, and realize the magnitude of the problems that confront us, we must be prepared for the expenditure of large sums of money if nature is to yield some of her hidden secrets to us. In the physical sense, as we all know, we have to contend against these hidden and mysterious forces that would seem to baffle man’s ingenuity. But it has been said that the bane and the antidote lie close together. We see the truth of this statement in the discovery and use of vaccine as the remedy for various forms of diseases to which the human flesh is heir. In this way man’s knowledge has, to a remarkable extent, triumphed over the traditional ignorance of many generations. The difficulties of mankind in a physical sense are repeated in Nature, and I am afraid that there are many troubles that will never be completely overcome. It is hazardous to forecast future developments in this direction, but I should say that it is just as well that we have no control over the seasons, for the simple reason that we have not established a particularly satisfactory record in our attempts to deal with things as they are. There are, however, problems altogether apart from those that may be attributed to the erratic nature of the seasons that might very well engage our attention - problems of the soil, as well as problems due to the ravages of pests that so frequently baffle our primary producers. The production of wool, thanks to the extraordinary diligence of those who have built up the industry in Australia, has attained to such a pitch of perfection that it is difficult to believe it is possible to produce a better article than our fine merino wool. But there is an important field for research in connexion with the troubles, such as the blow-fly pest, that beset the animal that grows the wool. Wheat is another field in which important research work may be carried out. Smut, red rust, and septoria call insistently for scientific investigation. Hitherto much of the success which has attended the efforts of civilized man has been due to scientific research on the part of individuals. Governments have not always pointed the way. Rather have they lagged behind individual effort. We have only to recall the names of such men as Watt, Faraday, and Newton, who obtained very little assistance from the governments of their day, to realize the extent to which we are indebted to the disinterested efforts and midnight labours of individual scientists. The ideal state of affairs is, of course, that which makes possible the co-operation and the co-ordination of government and private effort.
It has been said in criticism of this measure that there is no occasion for the intrusion of a seventh scientific investigating authority. I pay no attention to that objection. The several State organizations which are endeavouring to grapple with the many problems identified with our primary and secondary industries are within their limited resources, no doubt, doing good work. I believe the re-organization of this Commonwealth scientific research institution will infuse into the work that element of competition which is so essential to the success of human efforts to unfold the secrets of nature. But it is essential that there shall be also a well-balanced scheme of 60-ordination. I understand that the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, as the re-organized body will be termed, will not go over the beaten track already covered by the several State organizations. If I read the proposal aright, its purpose will be to ensure the co-operation of the States in the field of scientific investigation.
History fortunately furnishes many examples of the benefits conferred on mankind for scientific research. Pasteur, a man of humble origin, by his remarkable discoveries, wrote his name on the highest pinnacle of scientific fame. He explored hitherto unknown regions of knowledge with magnificent results. His researches into the silk industry so benefited France that in that field alone he saved his country the equivalent of the German indemnity of over £200,000,000, and when the people were asked by a French periodical to declare, by vote, who was the most popular Frenchman of their day, Pasteur was easily first on the list. When he went to London he advised the brewers there that they were losing immense sums of money every year through their lack of knowledge concerning bacteria. Was it not Dickens who said of the primary producers that their first concern should be the cultivation of that area within the ring fence of their own skulls? He meant, in other words, that the development of the mental faculty would lead to the solution of other problems. This bill, it is gratifying to know, is a movement in that direction. We have many examples in this country of remarkable achievements by men who have done a considerable amount of scientific pioneering work. I mention, first of all, the achievements of Farrar, who at one time was a comparatively obscure wheatproducer in New South Wales.
Sitting suspended from 1 to 2 p.m.
– I desire to impress upon the Government the necessity to see that the energies of the council are devoted to the solution of the problems inseparable from rural life. Our primary producers have to contend with handicaps and disabilities that are peculiar to Australia. While our wool is of unequalled quality, the sheep are susceptible to various diseases, and the council could lend assistance, no doubt, in combating them. Nodules in beef have materially reduced the productivity of the splendidly grassed areas of Queensland, and when the meat reaches the freezing works there is the further trouble of tainted bone. As for the dairying industry, Australian butter, good as it may be, is not yet, judging by the prices obtained on the London market, . equal in quality to the best Danish article.
– It is nearly on a par with it at the present time.
– But it ought to be as good. There is a vast field for inquiry in connexion with our dairy herds. Then, in the sphere of fruit-growing, we have the woolly aphis, the black spot, scale, and many other diseases that beset our orchardists. Australia may well leave to the outside world the attainment of perfection in the production of such things as motor cars, aeroplanes, and wireless wonders. A rich and resourceful outside world is employing in those directions the brains of much better scientists than Australia can furnish. I do not suggest that Australia, in proportion to its population, has not as many brilliant minds ‘as are to be found in other countries - I might refer, by way of illustration, to the invention of the Brennan torpedo and the Lewis gun - but it would be more profitable for this country to have the benefit of the research made in outside countries along those lines. We should encourage, to the best of our ability, individual effort in scientific research. In Western Australia, some time ago, a problem arose involving the treating of salt water from the mines to enable it to be used for boiler purposes. By slow degrees a small company, known as the Sons of Gwalia Mining Company, discovered, by means of its chemists, a method of rendering the water eminently suitable for boiler purposes. This prevented the frequent interruption of the operations of the mine for the purpose of cleaning the boiler. Now, after months of use, the boiler tubes are perfectly clean, and great expense has been saved. So successful has the experiment proved, that the Commonwealth railway authorities sent for details of the invention, and are now about to erect a plant on similar lines on the east-west railway.
One of the varied problems that might well tax the ingenuity of this young institute, is the acclimatization of plants, in which direction Australia has done little, if anything, up to the present time. Whatever plants we have, have come our way by accident. I understand that the grasses used extensively for pastoral purposes in New South Wales were in troduced by chance. One of the most fascinating articles I have read, when scanning the reports of the Bureau of Agriculture of the United States of America, referred to the work of a doctor who was sent out to discover a plant that could be acclimatized on the windswept prairies of Central North America. He visited Eastern Asia, and after two years during which he travelled from the island of Saghalien to South-Eastern China, discovered a clover which he planted on the rich soil of the NorthWest. It was so successfully acclimatized that the value of land rose from cents to dollars an acre. This achievement indicates the vast possibilities in the direction of plant acclimitization in Australia.
The pest known as stinkwort is a source of great worry to farmers and others in South Australia. It has appeared, also,’ in Western Australia and Victoria. In one respect, it is’ a blessing in disguise, because it makes farmers cultivate their land. It grows at a time when most grasses are dying off, and if its rare tenacious qualities could be allied with some useful edible plant, possibly a useful growth could be produced. It may be that herein lies a problem the solution of which will be of great benefit to stock-producers. Although there will be limitations to the operations of the council, it will respond to the unanimous desire that we should try to extract from unwilling mother nature as many of her secrets as she will surrender. She has been particularly prodigal in giving us a vast storehouse of raw material ; but she has kept from our knowledge many of her secrets, the possession of which would enable us to be more successful than hitherto. It will be the work of the council to attack the frontiers of ignorance, to enable us to discover some of those secrets, and thus increase the productivity of our country. John Stuart Mill wrote that he doubted whether . all the inventions of man had relieved the burden of human toil to the extent of a single day. Truthful as that writer has proved to be in laying down many political maxims, he was, nevertheless, wrong in that belief. The lot of the average man, and particularly the “bottom dog” - as Blatchford calls him - has been materially, if not vastly, improved, as the result of scientific discovery.
The institute, as originally formed, was of very little use. The Minister wisely advised us to close that page of - our history. That I am prepared to do; but, as I always believe in using experience as a guide for future action, I shall refer to one incident which shows the necessity for the institute being infused with greater life. With some others, I am interested in some shale-oil deposits in Tasmania. Wc made application to the Institute of Science and Industry for an officer to inspect the deposits and report on them. We desired to have the opinion of a scientific authority, but, notwithstanding continual pleadings, nothing was done by the Ministry. As our money was nearly exhausted, and we were working on an overdraft,’ we’ made an appeal to the Victorian Government, and without delay an officer was made available to do that which the institute failed to do. The State Government of Victoria was not interested in Tasmania; the Commonwealth Government should have been. Yet, while the latter took no action to assist us, the State Government was prompt in coming to our aid. In order to provide sufficient funds for the important work of the new institute, I should like to see a tax imposed upon the wealthy people of this country. I should not call upon the slender means of the ordinary man for this purpose, but only upon the wealth of those who have gained it in this country.
– Does the honorable senator suggest a special incometax?
– As things are at present, a tax is placed upon the general body of citizens to meet the expenses of the institute. Men who have amassed wealth in this country should be prepared to support an institution of this kind. But what does science derive from many of the world’s millionaires? They leave huge bequests to all sorts of fanciful objects, while institutions such as this, which might do much for the good of humanity, are left without funds.
– There have been some very notable exceptions.
– Yes, a few. I was > about to refer to one outstanding in- I stance. The late Sir Winthrop Hackett, the proprietor of the leading newspaper of Western Australia, disbursed his fortune on right lines. He applied the great bulk of it to the endowment of the. university at Perth, the finances of which were not in a strong position. As a result of his action, that university will now be in a position to do good work. I feel proud to belong to the State which produced such a man. There are many others in Australia who should follow his example.
– If the honorable senator would come farther east he would find some other notable examples. He may know of the magnificent bequest by Mr. Peter Waite, of South Australia.
– I hope that these examples will be followed by many others. I welcome this bill, which is an attempt to give effect to a desirable purpose. We are in need of greater enlightenment on many matters concerning which science alone can enlighten us. Notwithstanding certain developments that have occurred recently, I believe that, in the main, Australians will put forward the necessary efforts, and devote themselves wholeheartedly to accomplish’ the things that are worth while. But their efforts, unaided by science, will not be of much avail. The establishment of an institution of this kind is, therefore, to be welcomed. I support the bill.
– Like the previous speaker, I extend a hearty welcome to this bill, a welcome perhaps the more hearty because I have so long expected it. Now that the measure has arrived, I am very glad to see that it is in a form which is exceedingly acceptable to me. I should be a very unappreciative man if I were not pleased with it, because nearly three years ago, in this chamber, I advocated for this institute the exact form of control which is embodied in this bill. Not that alone; but a little over twelve months ago, at the request of certain Ministers, I expressed in writing my views regarding the best way by which this institute should be controlled. For some reason the Government was not satisfied with my recommendation. It called a conference, to which Senator Pearce has already alluded. Although invited to attend the conference, I was, unfortunately, precluded bv other duties from doing so. The conference decided on a method of control which would have cost in overhead expenses about £23,000 per annum before anything was done. The Government recognized the futility of such a system. Then Sir Frank Heath, at the invitation of the Government, came here. This bill has been formulated on the reports submitted by him. It is a peculiar coincidence, which I discovered only the night before he left when discussing this matter with him, that Sir Frank Heath’s report and my recommendations were absolutely identical, even to the amount of money which we recommended should be paid to the gentlemen who would constitute the executive council to control the institute.
– It is another case of great minds thinking alike.
– I do not say that; but I, as a humble individual who has taken more than a passing interest in this matter, feel that I have occasion to congratulate myself upon finding my opinion, formed quite independently, endorsed by so high an authority as Sir Frank Heath, who, for many years, has been engaged in controlling the same class of institution in England.
– Probably he read the honorable senator’s speeches before making his report.
– I do not think so. The essence of this bill is the method of control. It is in that direction that the institution has failed so far. In the first instance, the control was vested in a comparatively large body of men possessing high academic qualifications, nearly all of them being university professors. I have some knowledge of that method of control, because some years ago, when the bill which we are now amending was being formulated, I was asked by the Government of Western Australia to visit Melbourne to put the case for that State in relation to a certain clause of the bill which would have had the effect of nullifying the little progress we had made. I visited Melbourne, and, thanks to the energy of the Minister then controlling the department - I refer to Senator Greene - the desired amendments were incorporated in the measure. I had then an opportunity of meeting the learned gentlemen who comprised the Executive Council of the Institute of Science and Industry. I formed the impression that the institute was rather top-heavy - it was a parliament, rather than a committee, of science and industry. The bill, when passed, put an end to that state of affairs. But we then went to the other extreme, and centred all the authority and responsibility in one man. I do not propose now to repeat what I have previously said regarding that period. It has passed, and I hope that we are now at the dawn of a new era. The control of the institution will in future be in the hands of a body of men who will be, as it were, midway between the two extremes which I have mentioned. I believe that the constitution of the council will make for workable conditions, and result in useful and practical work being done. I do not think that the practical nature of the work of the institute can be too highly emphasized. Personally, I should have liked to see that aspect emphasized in the title to the bill. I should have preferred the body of gentlemen to be appointed to have been termed the Council of Applied Science. That title would have placed definitely before the people of Australia the difference between this body and other scientific bodies. Pure science and applied science are different; although pure science is absolutely necessary to applied science, the two fields should be kept separate. Pure science can be left to the universities of whose curriculum it forms a part. Applied science has made the most progressive countries of the world what they are. From these countries we have gained, second hand, a great deal of advantage. What applied science can achieve is best exemplified in the United States of America, which, if considered only from the point of view of science, is indeed a wonderful country. If the people of the United States of America, who are commercially minded and not disposed to spend their money in ventures from which there will be no return, consider it wise to spend millions upon this branch of development, we should, so far as is possible, follow their example. We should confine the subjects to be considered by this institution to those which enter into the daily and economic life of the inhabitants of this country. This Parliament has an inestimable benefit in considering the bill in that, contrary to the usual practice, it is aware of the personality of the men who are to be appointed to control this institute. I think a very wise choice of chairman has been made. I do not know the other gentlemen very well - I know Dr. Rivett slightly - but I have known Mr. Julius for many years, and have studied him carefully. I have always considered him to be a scientist whose life holds one controlling passion, and that is the passion for research. When he was employed in Western Australia, in the mechanical engineering branch of our railway workshops there, he conducted, entirely on his own initiative, with the consent, of course, of his department, investigations into timber physics - that is, the breaking, strains, stresses, and composition of timbers - not only those of Western Australia, but also those of Australia generally. The result of his investigations stands out to-day as a text-book for engineers, and if that work was done, so to speak, in the green leaf, I look for a great deal in the grown tree. Another important factor is that two of the gentlemen who are to control the research to be undertaken are engineers. Every one knows that engineering is the most practical side of science. There is a great deal yet to be said about the subjects to be considered by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research. Undoubtedly there will be a good deal of overlapping in regard to certain matters, and I think it is unfortunate that the honorable senator who preceded me chose as a task for this council nearly all the subjects upon which the greatest overlapping will occur. A great deal of the work which he indicated as being fit and proper and, indeed, necessary for the council to undertake is already being carried out to a greater or less extent by the agricultural departments of the various States. Undoubtedly the work done by those agricultural departments will be of very great assistance to the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, just as the work of the Council will be of assistance to the scientists of the various agricultural departments of the State. But we must walk warily in this connexion, and it was that necessity, I presume, which influenced the Government in paying so much attention to the setting up of State advisory committees. Those bodies must hold the balance between the purely State activities and those which are to be undertaken by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research. There are, however, many subjects, some of which are not mentioned, and have not been mentioned yet, that are entirely new, and with which the prosperity, comfort, and life of the people of Australia are greatly bound up. These ought to be, and can be, considered by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research. When Senator Barwell first entered this chamber, he spoke about the future financial relations between the Commonwealth and the States, and no doubt his remarks will be recollected by honorable senators when, later on, we are considering certain financial proposals which will shortly come before us. But what he said was perfectly true - that in the years to come the Commonwealth will become more and more prosperous, and the States less and less so. In those circumstances, work which can be undertaken by a State will have the attention of the State confined to it, and subjects of a debatable character will fall, I think, -within the financial purview of the Commonwealth. Practical scientific research, coming, as I think it does, in the latter category, can, and will be, reasonably undertaken by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research. The process must be gradual. Any work which can be carried out by the State should be left to it for the time being; it must come the way of the Commonwealth later on. Nevertheless, there are various other comparatively new subjects.
– Some of the matters now in hand are very urgent. Consider the loss occasioned by the blowfly pest.
– Exactly. At a moderate estimate, the Institute has been considering that matter for four or five years.
– And the sheep are still dying.
– Unfortunately, they are, but that may be due to lack of funds on the part of the Institute or lack of concentrated effort in the right direction. At any. rate, the matter has not been lost sight of. There are subjects that are of even greater urgency. There is one branch of industry intimately connected with the daily food supply, and, may I say, with the daily health of the people of Australia - I allude to the fishing industry - which
I think should receive far more prominence as regards its products than it has at present. To the shame of all the other States, be it said that in our State alone, that of New South Wales, has any effort been made to do the best to make use of the advantages on our coasts, which, although they are not so great as those in other parts of the world, nevertheless exist, and should be made use of. Our fishermen cannot extend their operations beyond 20 or 30 fathoms, whereas the fish supply of the greater part of Europe comes, in many cases, from depths of from 100 to 150 fathoms. We know from the small effort already made that at these depths on our coast immense quantities of fish are available, and fishing grounds of vast extent exist. Yet we are, so’ to speak, sleeping on the matter. It is too big a subject- for the States to tackle. They have all made little pecks at the encouragement of trawling, and have spent a certain amount of money in that direction, but very little compared with the results which should be obtained from our fishing industry. It now remains for the Commonwealth to resume those operations which were cut off by the sad death of the gentleman who was at the time in charge of the Commonwealth fisheries, and who, in respect of his knowledge of fisheries, was one of the finest men we have had in Australia. I refer to Dr. Dannevig, and the untimely loss of the trawler Endeavour, which he had under his control. Although the subject of fisheries was not mentioned by the Leader of the Senate (Senator Pearce) when he was moving the second reading of the bill, I hope that almost the first subject which will be undertaken by the council will be the prosecution of fishery research on our const. When I talk of the prosecution of fishery research, I do not mean engaging in State trawling, running fish shops, or doing any of those disastrous things which have contributed to the loss in New South Wales of the sum of £350,000.
– It was a loss and a gain.
– It was certainly a loss. With regard to the gain, as I pointed out last night, on the ruins of that structure there has arisen an effort by private enterprise, which bought at a very cheap rate the trawlers that cost the New South Wales Government such an inordinate sum of money, and the effort has resulted in materially cheapening the price of fish in the city of Sydney.
– The New South Wales Government is responsible for the cheap fish supply in Sydney
– The Government is only indirectly responsible for it. This little effort certainly has as its genesis the huge failure of a State enterprise! In that regard I can congratulate the Government of New South Wales, because most State enterprises that I have seen in Australia have not even resulted in what one might call residual success.
– Our institute will be, as it were, a government enterprise, because it will be supported by the people’s money.
– Yes ; but I do not think that its purpose will be gain. At any rate I hope it will not be. I trust that its purpose will be to educate and give advice to people who desire to embark in new walks and avenues of industry. Its purpose should be to replace individual by collective experiments. Senator Lynch, when speaking, alluded to the lack of plant acclimatization. As a matter of fact, plant acclimatization has been carried on in Australia for many years ‘by individuals, who have imported various plants from other countries and grown them here, some with success, and others with no success. That effort was started under the old system of control by the Institute of Science and Industry. I was chairman of a committee in Western Australia, whose purpose it was to acclimatize useful plants. It promised from its personnel the highest things. It had on it the Conservator of Forests, The Director of Agriculture, the Professor of Agriculture at the Perth University, as well as other ardent members. At any rate they were ardent for a while. Unfortunately the committee went out of existence because the Commonwealth would not give it enough money to pay for its postage stamps.
– How many plants did it acclimatize ?
– We acclimatized a lot, and we did it on our credit and through the kindness of the Bureau of Agriculture in America, which was good enough to send us fairly large quantities of seed. We distributed these to farmers throughout Western Australia, in some cases with considerable benefit to them. But these were results that were not cried from the housetops; because before we could get them the postage stamp bill that extinguished us came along. I forget what the amount was, it was very trifling, but we could not get money from the central executive to pay the account. Perhaps it was just as well, because all the work we did was in an honorary and ungrudging capacity. Very much of the best work clone in the world has been done in an honorary capacity. I place fishery research second only to research into the production of oil fuel and motive power in various forms in Australia. That is our crying need for the future. If we are to have any existence of our own, or to be a worthy part of the Empire, or to keep pace with the other nations, we must develop within ourselves the motive power for our industries. That can be done only by having the cheapest available power, and the best and most effective way of getting it is from the resources within Australia itself. It will never do for this country in times to come, if there is more trouble, as assuredly there will be, to depend on other nations - commercially-minded nations, perhaps - for the power to carry on either our own peaceful avocations, or those warlike avocations in which we may be embroiled. It is worth while for the Government to spend large sums of money in an effort to perfect some of the processes which have been begun, or to bring to fruition some of the things which have already been started, so that we may be, indeed, a self-supporting and self-contained nation, and, as I have already said, a worthy part of the Empire, which, through its very diffusion throughout the earth, has so many points of attack.
– How will the proposed Council of Scientific and Industrial Research deal with the fishing industry? The extent of our fishing grounds is well known.
– That is not so. I have already stated that our fishing operations are confined to the waters within a short distance from the coast. The totally inadequate supply of fish available in Victoria comes principally from the bays and estuaries off this coast.
– And some from South Australia.
– -Exactly. The limit of our present fishing grounds is absolutely inadequate.
– I understand that the whole of the east coast is charted for deep-sea fishing.
– I have been in close touch with the fisheries authorities in New South Wales, which is the only State in which a reasonable attempt has been made to do what I have indicated, and know that the position is not as the honorable senator states. Our appliances, are obsolete. A month or two ago a certain fishing appliance was brought to Australia, which I dare say very few in this country have heard of, but which has been extensively used on the European coast for some years. I allude to what is known as the Danish seine. It overcomes difficulties of trawling, and can be worked with very effective results from a boat onehalf or one-third of the size of an ordinary trawler. This appliance is ideal for deep fishing in the open seas. In Australia we have a boundary line at the 25 fathom limit, all of which has not been actually explored, and if that were extended to a limit of 100 fathoms, as is quite possible, excellent results should follow, particularly if modern appliances wore employed. No effective step in this direction has been taken by the governments or the people of Australia.
– Is it to be one of the functions of the council to obtain appliances which are well known in Europe ?
– We should, in the first place, do what has been done in other civilized countries, and that is, define the suitable fishing grounds available, and also determine whether drifting - the method adopted in capturing mackerel, herring, and other small fish off the British coast - can be undertaken here. No experiments have been made to sec whether fish can be caught off the Australian coast by the drifting process. We know that such fish exist; but we do not know to what extent. A proper bottom survey should also be made of the trawlable waters. This would possibly disclose extensive fishing grounds at a workable depth, and within reasonable distance. We know only of the existence of some grounds, but we do not know the difficulties with which those who work them have to contend. That is part of the work which has yet to he done. There are many edible fish in Australian waters concerning which we know little or nothing. A short time before the Endeavour foundered, she was engaged on a fishing bank off the south coast of Western Australia - a bank which runs for 300 or 400 miles, lias an average width of 20 miles, and a depth of water of from 60 to 160 fathom3. During her investigations there, the existence of magnificent edible fish was established. Three new species were discovered, the presence of which was previously unknown, and the remarkable edible quality of which is undoubted. The science of marine biology has been almost neglected in Australia; it is practically an unknown quantity. The information obtained by the proposed council should be placed at the service of the community, and should be the means of giving to it a food supply which at present is abnormally lacking. The State of New South Wales, which is now engaged in one of the most vital branches of this research, is trying to establish a proper method of land distribution, which is not, [ .submit, so much the work of the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research as of those who know exactly how to handle it.
– Will the destruction of rabbits be considered by the council 1
– That is quite possible. If the honorable senator will submit as many kind, helpful suggestions to the council as he is submitting to me I am sure its time will be very fully and usefully occupied. There are other matters, more especially in connexion with plant pathology, that are attended to in some of the States and are neglected in others. This branch of research is actively conducted in nearly every part of the world. Some years ago I had. a very interesting trip to the Federated Malay States. There I found, in a comparatively small population of a little over 1,000,000 people of all colours, a Department of Agriculture, resembling the proposed Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, in which 23 skilled scientists were working out the agricultural problems of that country. I doubt if we have 23 agricultural scientists in the whole of Australia. Wherever we go, even in countries which are considered to be far behind us, we find similar departments in existence. In Australia we appear to be so cocksure as to think we do not need the benefit of the experience and wisdom of the outside world. It is time these problems, which abound on every side, received consideration. I welcome the bill, because I think, naturally enough, perhaps, that the method of control is sensible and practical, and will achieve its objective. We have in Australia many millions of acres of waste land of low productive capacity, and it would be to our advantage, as it has been to that of America and other countries, to send abroad men who have the requisite knowledge and experience to ascertain how the poorer lands are being developed. We are not making the best use of what may be termed our waste lands. This is a matter which involves individual and collective action, and so much so that I think it should engage the attention of the council as soon as possible. There are other avenues of research almost too numerous to particularize, but now that we have made a good start we should proceed vigorously, and all do what we can to help. It is upon collective effort that the success of an enterprisesuch as this depends. I am pleased to see that Parliament is now adopting Quite a different attitude from that to which we have been accustomed. On the occasion to which I have already alluded, when I came to Melbourne in connexion with a measure which became the act we are now amending, I attended several sittings of the Parliament, and to me the apathy displayed by some honorable members was a appalling. In those days they did not seem to have any idea of the functions or prospective use of the institute; but today they are interested and eager to bo up and doing in this new field which promises so much. The only portion of the bill which may cause a little trouble is the attention, too much, perhaps, which has been given to the States. If the council renders good service to the States, we can depend upon receiving their support. I am not too sure of how these State activities will operate, but I am hoping for the best.
– The proposal is worth a trial.
– Almost anything is worth a trial.
– Surely scientists work harmoniously together!
– Strange to say, I have not noticed it in all instances, but that might have been due to my lack of observation. I should like the Minister to explain how the existing branches engaged in scientific work will be placed under this proposal. I am keenly anxious about the Forestry Department. I do not suppose the Government will pass over the control of what is already an established department, in actuality, if not legally, to a council such as is proposed, whose duties will consist of only research work. The Commonwealth Forestry Department is most capably and efficiently controlled, and, as I have already stated, is dealing with subjects which are in most cases beyond the need of research. I hope its identity will be preserved, and that it will not be placed under any body, however good, to the detriment of those gentlemen now exercising control over it. It is a very important point. The Council of Scientific and Industrial Research will be quite justified in carrying out experiments in regard to forestry products, timber physics, and the various branches of research connected with forestry; but I trust that the control of forests and territories, the Forestry School, and the advice that the Federal Forestry Department gives to the States will not be handed over to the proposed council, and thereby unduly increase its responsibilities. If the work of the council is unduly increased, it will be unable to effectively carry on its scientific operations. I have pleasure in supporting the bill.
SenatorREID (Queensland) [3.0].- I congratulate Senator Kingsmill upon the very interesting address which he has just delivered. A great deal has been said by previous speakers concerning the work that will be undertaken by the Council for Scientific and Industrial
Research. We have just passed a tariff bill designed to encourage the development of our secondary industries, and we have also done a great deal for the assistance of ourprimary industries. The function of this re-organized scientific institution will be to investigate the many problems that confront Australian industry. In my opinion, the most serious difficulty that Australia has to face - at all events, in connexion with primary production - is the cycle of dry spells to which a great area of this continent is periodically subject. I have not had either the time or the opportunity to ascertain what these dry spells cost Australia. All I know is that they come in cycles, and very seriously affect primary production. Senator Kingsmill said that, under our present methods of production, we are not making the best use of our poorer lands, and he suggested that’ attention to plant pathology might help. From my knowledge of Queensland - and I think the same remark may be applied to the other States - the frequency with which dry cycles recur prevents us from making the fullest use even of our best lands. At present, central and north-western Queensland are suffering severely from drought conditions. I am informed, on reliable authority, that we have lost between 5,000,000 and 6,000,000 sheep. Other States suffer similarly in their turn. It is not incorrect to say that the whole of the pastoral areas in Australia are subject to periodical droughts; but, up to the present, no attempt has been made to deal with the problem from a scientific point of view. Actually, we have not done a great deal in the way of water conservation, and, unfortunately, in the western parts of Queensland the nature of the country - for thousands of miles at a stretch it is as flat as a billiardtable - and the heavy evaporation due to semi-tropical conditions, make conservation schemes extremely expensive and difficult. However, if Australia is to develop and to maintain a large population, we must face and solve this difficulty. I have seen large areas, apparently settled successfully, entirely wiped out during a series of drought years. But I am not unduly pessimistic. I believe that if the problem is tackled from the proper scientific angle we shall overcome these difficulties. We all know what immense losses are occasioned by the blowfly pest, and how the prickly pear has taken possession of millions of acres of good, cultivatable land in Queensland. Twenty-five years ago, when I was a member of the Queensland Parliament, I urged that steps should be taken to check the spread of prickly pear; but I was only laughed at for my pains. Since then the pear has spread over millions of acres in that State, and has also made its appearance in the northern part of New South Wales. These matters, as well as the recurring droughts, press for immediate attention. I have seen millions of sheep and thousands of cattle dying during a prolonged dry spell. Every one appears to know when a drought is due. The present dry spell in central and north-western Queensland was expected by people who are familiar with weather conditions there; but up to the present no one has been able to advise what should be done. I have no suggestions to make, except that scientists should endeavour to ascertain the cause, and then advise as to the remedy. It has been contended that the construction of railways in order to shift starving stock from drought-stricken areas to other districts is the best remedy. That is being done now in Queensland. Fortunately, there is ample pasture in the southern part of that State; but, if we encourage settlement, and if all pastoral areas are occupied, as we hope they will be, there will then be no vacant pasture lands for starving stock, so railways then will be of no avail. Even the Barkly Tableland, which is not subject to drought conditions, will not be available if it becomes settled. The water difficulty has been overcome by the sinking of wells for artesian supplies, but water without feed is of no value. This problem has been handled satisfactorily in. the United States of America, so there is no reason why areas subject to droughts should not be successfully occupied in Australia. At present, our population is almost entirely restricted to the coastal areas, though most of our best land is in the interior. Under favorable conditions it will grow almost anything. I have cut cabbages 28 lb. and 30 lb. in weight from gardens in the north-west * of Queensland where they were looked after. It is not too much to expect that even the “ Never-Never “ country will one day be profitably settled. I hope that this subject will receive early attention.
Senator FINDLEY (Victoria) [3.121. - I shall not detain the Senate for more than a few minutes. I do not know that I should have arisen to speak had it not been for the remarks of the two last speakers. Senator Reid congratulated Senator Kingsmill upon what he regarded as an extremely interesting address, and expressed not only his appreciation, but also his thanks, for the information which that honorable senator had given the Senate. As I listened to Senator Kingsmill, I could not help thinking that he was on a fishing expedition. He told us that the New South Wales Government, which, to his regret probably, is not a Nationalist Government, had pioneered the way by supplying the people of New South Wales with cheap fish. It is commonly known that the article sold in the State fish-shops of New South Wales was of the finest quality, and it was supplied at a cheaper rate than that at which it was obtainable prior to the advent of the Labour Government in that State. I do not know that the institute will be called upon to make an investigation into the fishing industry. If Senator Kingsmill believes that the development of that industry is of greater importance than the eradication of the blowfly and other pests, I say that he has not given the subject serious consideration Fish is in abundance in Australian waters, but the supply of that food is apparently controlled by a ring. Scientific men tell us that there is more danger to health from common houseflies than from snakes, and that people should not partake of food over which flies have traversed. Is the success of the fishing industry of greater importance than the investigation of the causes of the serious damage done by pests of every description in the fields of agriculture, horticulture, and viticulture? Is it of greater importance than the eradication of the borer pest that has done harm to the extent of millions of pounds? The war of the future, possibly, will not be between, man and man, but between man and the insect pests. According to statements made from time to time, thousands of houses, as well as the furniture in them, have been attacked by borers. Senator Reid contends that the solution of the prickly-pear problem is one of the most important that faces Australia ; but I disagree with him. Although the eradication of that pest may bring wealth to Queeusland, the health of the whole of the people is of paramount importance. According to Senator Kingsmill, the institute should send its emissaries north, south, east, and west in order to discover new fishing grounds, and, after the way has been paved for the development of the industry, private enterprise should step in and reap the reward. If a supply of fish were made available as the result of the efforts of the institute, the public would be entitled to the benefit of the low prices.
– State enterprise has never provided cheap commodities.
– It has in Queensland.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Newlands). - The honorable senator, in discussing State governmental activities, is going beyond the scope of the bill.
– I have no desire to infringe the Standing Orders. I support the measure, and hope that it will prove beneficial to .the people as a whole, stimulating both primary and secondary industries. Orchardists are compelled to work ceaselessly in their efforts to combat various pests, whose ravages seriously affect their income. Owing to the necessity for the use of arsenical sprays by our orchardists, an impression gained ground some time ago that apples sent to London were unwholesome; but I am glad to know that satisfactory evidence was forthcoming to refute the suggestion. I trust that the institute, acting in conjunction with the agricultural departments of the various States, will amply justify its existence.
– Senator Lynch asked that the council of this institute should direct its attention to the problems of rural life. I indicated, at the outset, some subjects that it proposed to consider, among them being animal and plant pests and diseases, cold storage, and fuel and forest products problems. These subjects are all inti mately associated with rural life. I suggest to Senator Findley that Senator Kingsmill’s advocacy of an investigation into the fishing industry is in no way opposed to the consideration of other problems, since the officers engaged in that inquiry would be entirely different from those investigating, for in-, stance, plant diseases. Whilst fish is an important staple food in many other countries, it is a luxury in Australia, and there is, therefore, need to inquire into the matter. Senator Kingsmill desired to know the relationship between this institute and forestry. The institute will have charge of the research side of forestry. On the recommendation of Mr. LanePoole, the Government’s adviser on forestry, we have commenced a school of forestry, which draws students from the various States, but this will not be under the direction of the institute. Forestry research will be one of the functions of the institute.
– The hour has now arrived when, under the sessional order, it is my duty to put the question -
That the Senate do now adjourn.
Question resolved in the negative.
– A man is indeed to be pitied if he does not realize the damage caused to Australia by droughts; but, fortunately, they do not come often - not so frequently as we would have the outside world believe. I am not sure that this institute would be the body to investigate the means by which drought conditions may best be met, although it might inquire into the possibilities in connexion with drought-resisting vegetation. The combating droughts is a question of development. We shall have in operation soon the migration and developmental commission. It will probably be the function of that body rather than of this institute to inquire into the subject.
– Is provision made in the bill for co-operation between the council and the industrial research bodies of the various States?
– Yes. They are directly linked up. In each State there will be a State committee on which three persons nominated by the State Government - presumably officers of the Agricultural and Mines Department and a university professor - will act, and these will have power to co-opt other persons if required.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Bill read a second time.
In committee:
Clauses 1 to 7 agreed to.
Clause8 (Appointment of State committees ) .
– I ask the Minister the meaning of subclause 1 - “ The Governor-General may appoint a State committee in each State consisting of such number of members as is prescribed.” Will each committee work independently of existing departmental institutions in the other States?
– The reason the bill is prepared in its present form is that it is an amendment of the principal act. This committee will be linked up with the existing bodies in the different States. The persons appointed by the State Governments to the State committees will probably be officers of their own departments or university professors. In addition, the State committees will be able to co-opt other men possessing scientific knowledge.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 9 to 12 agreed to.
Clause 13 (Appropriation for investigations).
.- Will the Minister inform us of the nature of the control over departments and sub-departments which the council will exercise? I refer more especially to forestry.
.- Is it the intention of the Government to set aside a definite sum each year for the purposes of the council. I was unavoidably absent at the opening of the Minister’s second reading speech.
– I explained the position during my second-reading speech. This £250,000 will be paid into a trust fund, but, annual estimates will be brought before Parliament. The expenses of the council for this year will be met from this £250,000, the object being to ensure to it a sum of money for a period in advance. For the information of Senator Kingsmill, I can say that all matters of research will be the function of the council. There is already a Commonwealth forestry school, and forestry will be carried out in the Federal Territory, but they will not come within the scope of the council.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 14 and 15 agreed to.
Clause 16 (Power to publish information).
.- The old Institute of Science and Industry published from time to time a number of pamphlets printed on costly paper which, while they contained valuable information, represented the expenditure of a lot of money. The money spent in that way was out of proportion to the amount spent in research work. While not desiring to hamper the council, I draw attention to the matter in the hope that expenditure in this direction will be reduced to a minimum.
– Good paper is necessary for the reproduction of photographs.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 17 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
Report adopted.
page 2969
– I move -
That the bill be now read a second time. This is a bill to appropriate the sum of £100,000. The appropriation differs from that of the bill just dealt with, in that this money will be placed to the credit of a trust fund, and the earnings set aside for the purpose of sending research students to other parts of the world in order to enable them to take up special lines of research work. These students will be chosen from mei who have had a distinctly favorable university career, and the Commonwealth will have a claim on their services when they return to Australia. That will be the subject of an agreement before they are sent abroad. It is proposed that while absent from Australia they shall receive £300 per annum for two years, together with the sum of £150 for their fares. They will enter into undertakings regarding the services which they are to render. This £100,000 will be an endowment fund, which it is hoped will be augmented by bequests from wealthy men. This bill makes a commencement by authorizing the payment of £100,000 into an endowment fund, the trustees of which will be the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research. Mr. Julius, Mr. New.bigin, and Dr. Rivett, the members of that council, will invest the fund and provide for the selection of those who areto o-o overseas. I do not think the bill needs any further explanation. It is supplementary to the Scientific and Industrial Research Bill, and seeks to carry out a most worthy object.
– I regard the bill as the necessary corollary of the measure just disposed of, because without it the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research could not properly function. It is pleasing to note that the Government has set aside a sum of money to help the council to carry on. As I said, in speaking on the other bill, the activities of the council should not be crippled for lack of funds. I am afraid the old institute was, and that that possibly accounted for what might be termed its failure. Another important feature of the bill is that young men who have had distinguished careers at Australian universities will be given an opportunity to go abroad as representatives of this young nation and gain skill and experience in other parts of the world, returning to give their own country the benefit of the knowledge they gain. So long as the Commonwealth can retain the services of these men for a specified period on their return, I see no objection to the bill, and, in fact, must welcome it.
Senator FOLL (Queensland) [3.481 - I should like to know from the Minister (Senator Pearce’) . when he replies, what action the Government can take to retain the services of men who have been sent away at the expense of the Commonwealth to continue their scientific education abroad. Not long ago a number of men were sent to Great Britain for special training in submarine making and it was understood that on their return their services would be available to the Commonwealth; but, as a matter of fact, there is not one of them in the service of the Commonwealth to-day. I should like to know from the Minister what penalty he proposes to enforce on these young men who are sent abroad if they do not remain in the service of the Commonwealth for a specified period?
– The young men who are sent abroad under the endowment scheme will sign a contract with the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, binding them to place their services at the disposal of the Commonwealth for a specified number of years. The parents of naval and military cadets sign agreements binding their sons to serve in the naval and military forces of the Commonwealth for a number of years after they have graduated. We cannot do more than that. The Government will have an option over the services of these young men on their return. They will be employed by the council in the various branches of research work they have studied abroad.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Bill read a second time.
In committee:
Clauses 1 to 7 agreed to.
Clause 8 (Application of fund).
.- Will the Minister inform the committee whether any provision is made, or proposed to be made, to meet the case of a young men who, having gone to America at the expense of the Endowment Fund, accepts employment there, and does not return to Australia?
– I do not know that the Government could pursue that man under a civil contract in a foreign country such as America. I do not think that we would have any remedy. I think we must rely on the honour of these young men to come back to Australia, and I should imagine that there will be every inducement for them to return to their own country, where they expect to make careers for themselves. Every precaution will be taken by the Government, but if a man is dishonorable and deliberately breaks a contract in the way suggested, I do not know that we would have any remedy. All we can do is to rely on the honour of the men we send away.
Senator THOMPSON (Queensland) [3.54 1 . - If a man who, though not a university student, is of an inventive turu of mind, hits upon something likely to be of value, but in the development of which he requires advice from older parts of the world, will he get assistance from this fund, so that he may complete his invention for the benefit of Australia?
– The bill does not contemplate giving assistance in those circumstances. If the door were opened to that sort of thing, the council would be flooded by people who, quite sincerely no doubt, imagine ‘that they can invent something of value if they are only given assistance.
Senator GRANT (New South Wales) [3.55J. - I should like to know if advantage can be taken of the knowledge gained by the various research bureaux conducted by private firms, such as the Broken Hill Proprietary Limited and many others that could be mentioned? Is provision made for any discoveries those bureaux are likely to make to be made available to the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research?
– No, . not under this bill. Under the other bill, provision is made for co-opting as members of State committees persons engaged in research work for private firms. The benefit of their skill and their knowledge will thus be obtained.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 9 and 10 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported -without amendment; report adopted.
Senate adjourned st 3.57 p.m.
Cite as: Australia, Senate, Debates, 11 June 1926, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/senate/1926/19260611_senate_10_113/>.