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House of Representatives
14 June 1945

17^th Parliament · 3^rd Session

QUESTION
- MK. J. B. CHIFLEY, M.P
QUESTION
- CLOTHES RATIONING
QUESTION
- AUDITOR-GENERAL’S REPORT
QUESTION
- THE PARLIAMENT
QUESTION
- POTATOES
QUESTION
- FLOODS T2ST NORTHERN KEW SOUTH WALES
QUESTION
- REAL ESTATE TRANSACTION’S
QUESTION
- MIGRATION
QUESTION
- AUSTRALIAN FORCES
WHEAT INDUSTRY
WHEAT IMPOST ANOMALY
- Miller Urges Revision
QUESTION
- MANUFACTURE OF MOTOR VEHICLES
QUESTION
- MAN-POWER
COALMINING INDUSTRY
QUESTION
- VICTORIAN SUGAR SUPPLIES
QUESTION
- AUSTRALASIAN COUNCIL OF TRADES UNIONS CONFERENCE
ORDER OF BUSINESS
COMMONWEALTH BANK BILL 1945
ADJOURNMENT
PAPERS
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
- Commonwealth Investigation Officers
- Resignation of War Correspondent
- Time-payment Sales
- Dairying Industry

Mr. Speaker (Hon. J. S. Rosevear) took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers.

page 3057

QUESTION

MK. J. B. CHIFLEY, M.P

Appointment to the Privy Council.

Mr MENZIES:
KOOYONG, VICTORIA

– Is the Acting Prime Minister aware that this morning^ press carries the announcement that His Majesty the King has been pleased to confer on him a Privy Councillorship ? Does he also know that every honorable member of this House,.of whatever party, experiences the greatest possible personal pleasure in that announcement?

Mr FADDEN:
DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND

– -May I, on behalf of myself and my party, join with the Leader of the Opposition in stating that we, too, experience the greatest possible pleasure in the fact that so high an honour has been bestowed upon the right honorable gentleman, . and in congratulating him on that account ?

Mr CHIFLEY:
Treasurer · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am. aware that this honour has been conferred upon me, although I was not informed until a late date that my Leader, the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin), had recommended it. I take this opportunity to express my warmest thanks for the sentiments that have been voiced by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) and the Leader of the Australian Country party (Mr. Fadden). The pleasure that I have is, naturally, tinged with regret that the illness of the Prime Minister has been the cause of my having had to act in that office. I appreciate highly the great courtesy which the Leader of the Opposition, the Leader of the Australian Country pary, the members of their parties, and the members of my own’ party have extended to me, not merely while I have been Acting Prime Minister, but also throughout my ministerial career. They have been most tolerant of my limitations, of most of which I am aware. I am deeply moved by the great kindliness that has been shown to me by the members of my own party in the absence of the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Forde).

page 3057

QUESTION

CLOTHES RATIONING

Mr CHAMBERS:
ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Will the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Shipping state whether there is any truth in the statement published in an Adelaide newspaper that woollen factories in that city are unable to dispose of their products to retailers, because the public has not sufficient coupons to purchase the stocks held by retailers, and that, on this account, unemployment in woollen factories is forecast?

Mr BEASLEY:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The honorable member mentioned this matter to me yesterday, and I made inquiries in regard to it. I have been advised that, owing to an improvement of the supply position generally, there is some evidence that goods are not now moving from retailers as rapidly as they were previously, and that this is affecting the disposal of factory production. Under the arrangements made by the Rationing Commission, any retailor who, in present circumstances, is finding that his ration coupon credits are inadequate, is asked to state his case to the local representative of the commission, whereupon an adjustment will be given consideration. There is no evidence of any fear ofl unemployment in Adelaide woollen factories. As a matter of fact, one large factory is pressing strongly for additional labour to be provided’ for it.

page 3057

QUESTION

AUDITOR-GENERAL’S REPORT

Mr FADDEN:

– “Will the Acting Prime Minister inform the House why the customary practice of having the

Auditor-General’s report printed and made available to members of all parties immediately upon its presentation to Parliament has not been followed this year? In view of the strong criticism by the Auditor-General of the administration of several government departments, will the Acting Prime Minister arrange for copies of the report to be made available to all members, so that they may be able to fulfil their responsibility to their electors of maintaining the closest possible scrutiny of public expenditure?

Mr SPEAKER (Hon J S Rosevear:
DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– The Anting Prime Minister, of course, did not handle the report before it was presented to the House. That is a function which devolves upon Mr. Speaker. I am sorry that I omitted to say, when tabling the report, that I had received a letter from the AuditorGeneral mentioning that, owing to difficulties experienced at the Government. Printing Office lie would submit at the earliest possible opportunity a typewritten report, which would later be followed, when conditions at the printing office would permit, by a printed report.

Mr HOLT:
FAWKNER, VICTORIA

– The Acting Prime Minister has no doubt read in the press the caustic comment of the Auditor-General referred to by the Leader of the Australian Country party. One passage relates to money expended by the Government in the presentation of its case in the referendum campaign. The Auditor-General expresses his own view that up to the present no appropriation has been made by Parliament to cover this expenditure, and he adds -

No advice has yet been received of any intention to seek parliamentary approval tor a supplementary appropriation.

Does the Government propose to seek the approval of Parliament for a supplementary appropriation?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– I have not yet had an opportunity to peruse the report of the Auditor-General. It was presented to you, Mr. Speaker, and you presented it to the House. I merely moved that it be printed, and no copy has yet reached my office. I am aware that the report refers to certain correspondence which took place on the subject of .expenditure on the referendum campaign. Although I have not always complete confidence in legal’ opinion, I did take the precaution of. obtaining a legal opinion on this expenditure, and it supported’ my own view. I am glad that I did so.

Mr Menzies:

– The Acting Prime Minister told us a few weeks ago that he always approved of lawyers when they agreed with him.

Mr CHIFLEY:

– That is so. It so happens that on this occasion they agreed with me, and so I have a great appreciation of their knowledge. I have not yet. had an opportunity to study the report; but I shall do so, and, if necessary, make >a statement.

page 3058

QUESTION

THE PARLIAMENT

Broadcasting of Debates

Mr WILLIAMS:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Can the Acting Prime Minister say whether the Government will arrange for the broadcasting of the debates in this House? Does he know that the matter has been raised recently at Labour conferences, and that strong approval has been given to the suggestion? Does he know also that the public generally is extremely interested in the matter, and is anxious to hear debates broadcast from this chamber? Does he realize that, as honorable members, particularly those on the Government side of the House, complain of unfair treatment by the press, the broadcasting of debates would resolve members’ difficulties in that respect? Is ho aware that for some time past, parliamentary debates have been broadcast in New Zealand with great satisfaction to the members of the Parliament and to the people of that country generally?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– I understand that consideration has been given to this matter by the present and previous Governments. I am having certain inquiries made about it, because I aci not quite clear as to the conditions under which debates in the New Zealand Parliament are broadcast. The Minister for Information is interested in this matter, and I understand that he has been making some inquiries regarding it. 1 also propose to make investigations regarding the practice in New Zealand. I am not quite convinced that the public is anxious to hear the debates in this Parliament. I do not know that I, as an ordinary member of the public, was particularly anxious to hear all the debates. However, I understand that a section of the public would like an opportunity to listen to, perhaps, a limited number of the speeches made in this Parliament. As to correcting by this means unfair treatment of honorable members by the press, I think that last week, had the debates been broadcast, most of the speeches heard would have been those made by members of the Opposition.

page 3059

QUESTION

POTATOES

Mr FULLER:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture whether he has yet had an opportunity to examine the script of the broadcast about the potato industry, made during the “Voice of Freedom” session over station 2SM? If so, what comment has he to offer on the statements made? Does the Minister know who constitutes the Bureau of National Affairs which sponsors these sessions?

Mr SCULLY:
Minister for Commerce and Agriculture · GWYDIR, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I shall have an investigation made, and an answer will be given later.

page 3059

QUESTION

FLOODS T2ST NORTHERN KEW SOUTH WALES

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

– by leave - I direct the attention of the Government to the very serious floods which have occurred’ on the north coast of New .South Wales, where some of the most fertile parts of the country have been inundated. The district consists for the most part of volcanic hill country, together with miles of fertile flats. It is subject to heavy flooding at intervals of ten or fifteen years, but usually the river rises gradually, and farmers are able to get their goods and stock away. On this occasion, however, the Tweed and Richmond Rivers rose so swiftly as the result of torrential rains - Murwillumbah had 21 inches in 48 hours - that the water came down like an avalanche and overwhelmed farms and townships before there was a chance to escape. In Lismore hundreds of motor cars and lorries were submerged before their owners had time to remove them. Many residents had to spend long periods on the roof tops in wind and rain, depend ing on such supplies as could be dropped to them by air. The honorable member for Brisbane (Mr. George Lawson), who flew over the district on Monday, told me this morning that it was a pitiful sight: for miles and miles there was nothing but water with the tops of houses showing through. The Tweed and Richmond Rivers districts are the most thickly populated rural areas of New South Wales; I estimate that 20,000 people have been calamitously affected by the loss of household belongings, merchants’ stores, and farmers’ plant and crops. The floods constitute a national calamity of the first order, particularly at the present time when butter production is so vital; these areas produce one-third of the butter of New South Wales. Hundreds of square miles of fertile flat land will be converted into waste, for the floods will leave a deposit of silt on the pastures which will not recover until well into the summer. Thousand’s ofl miles of fencing has been swept away, and thousands of dairy cattle and pigs have been drowned in the floods. House-holders have lost large quantities of rationed goods, in addition to valuable furniture, such as wireless sets, pianos, linoleum, sewing-machines and other irreplacable articles which will be irretrievably ruined by the water. The business people of Lismore and Murwillumbah who supply these commodities will be unable to meet the demands of the public to replace them. I ask that sympathetic attention be given to whatever legitimate requests may be made for financial assistance, along the lines of the help given to the victims of Victorian bush-fires, the Mackay cyclone, and other calamities. In addition, free fodder should be rushed to the starving stock of the devastated areas by every means of transport. I have conferred with the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. Scully) who has been most sympathetic; I aus sure that he will do everything possible to assist the flood victims. As I have said, thousands of miles of fencing has been swept away, and many buildings have been unroofed. It will rest with the Minister for Munitions (Mr. Makin) to make available ‘ supplies of barbed wire, pig wire, and galvanized iron to replace these losses. Despite the exchanges which I have had with the Minister in this House recently, I believe that he has a deep human sympathy for people in distress, and I am sure that he, too, will do whatever he oan to help these people. The calamity calls for great tolerance, and generosity on the part of the Minister for Trade and Customs (Senator Keane) in the allocation of coupons to enable housholders and business people to replace rationed goods which have been destroyed. The Department of Post-war Reconstruction also will be concerned, and I hope that the Minister in charge of that department will see that applications for permits and other requirements in connexion with rebuilding and repairs will be promptly dealt with, so that there will be a minimum of delay. I feel sure that the generally sympathetic attitude of the Government will ensure through all departments the doing of everything possible to assist the victims of the calamity.

Mr CHIFLEY:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

– by leave - On behalf of the Government, I express the deepest sympathy with the victims of the disaster. I understand that floods have occurred or are likely in other areas, but that the one referred to by the honorable gentleman was particularly severe. Ministers controlling the various matters that he has mentioned will give consideration to them as quickly as possible. Regarding the granting of financial assistance to the victims, to-day I shall consult the Acting Premier of New South Wales, Mr. Baddeley, who, I understand, is having a survey made of the position. I shall also ask the Cabinet to give consideration to the matter. The general attitude in the past has been that these visitations are mainly the responsibility of the State Government concerned, but I shall not allow that to prevent me from asking my colleagues to examine the whole picture as soon as I have obtained a report from Mr. Baddeley.

page 3060

QUESTION

REAL ESTATE TRANSACTION’S

Mr MORGAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Acting Prime Minister give consideration to the repeal of the Real Estate and Land

Sales Regulations that are not needed to prevent inflationary trends, in view of the more favorable war situation, the very satisfactory response to loan appeals, and the need for homes? Will the right honorable gentleman give consideration to a modified procedure regarding the obtaining of approval for property transactions from the Treasury ? The present procedure tends to cause a bottleneck, as all land sales, even those involving small blocks at small prices, must be approved. I specifically refer to transactions in which there is no conflict with the valuation made by the Valuer-General. It would simplify things if the procedure allowed automatic registration in cases where no conflict as to value is involved.

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– The honorable member is no doubt aware that there has been some relaxation of the controls particularly in regard to the sale of houses. The restriction under which a sale is not approved unless possession could bo obtained has been waived. That refers, of course, to people who desire to purchase a home to live in. I remind the honor-able member that rigid control must be kept on prices. That applies even to blocks of land. We know from experience that the sale of even a small block of land at an inflated value affects not only that block but all other blocks in the vicinity. I might add that we have received very strong protests from various quarters, and, indeed, from some State Premiers, about permitting the sale of land, ‘particularly agricultural and pastoral land1, while men who are now fighting are not given an opportunity to buy owing to their absence from the country. I propose to place the subject on the agenda for the Premiers Conference. It is felt that people who are .at home and have money to invest are receiving an unfair advantage by being given an opportunity to accumulate real estate, or broad acres, when soldiers who are away fighting are not informed that such lands, or properties, are available for purchase. Consistent with the considerations I have mentioned, namely, prices and the provision of reasonable opportunities to soldiers to purchase, a relaxation of the regulations will be made as far as possible.

page 3061

QUESTION

MIGRATION

Mr BERNARD CORSER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND

– Has the Acting Prime Minister read, a report in to-day’s Sydney Daily Telegraph that within the last six months 40,000 people have applied at Australia House, London, for information relating to migration to Australia, and that an official at Australia House stated that no specific plan has yet been made available with regard to migration? If that be so, will he take action to inform Australia House of the position so that prospective migrants will not be discouraged ?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– I shall arrange to have an examination of the matter raised by the honorable member. However, the Acting High Commissioner, Mr. Duncan, arrived in Australia recently, and is here at present. He is discussing migration with the Vice-President of the Executive Council and the Acting Minister for External Affairs, whilst I myself have had some conversations with him on the subject. From those conversations, I gather that reports of the kind referred to by tho honorable member are not correct. I shall examine the second point raised by the honorable member.

page 3061

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN FORCES

Withdrawal of Long-service Personnel.

Mr ABBOTT:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Acting Prime Minister issue instructions that immediate steps be taken to ascertain the names of all soldiers who, by length of service, are eligible for release from the Army, that such soldiers be discharged forthwith unless they request their commanding officer in writing that their services be retained, and that no soldier stationed on the Australian mainland who is eligible for release is to be sent forward to combat areas prior to discharge unless at his own request in writing?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– A question was asked on this subject yesterday, and the honorable member for Parkes also raised the matter with me in a personal interview. I have discussed the matter with the Acting Minister for the Army and the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction, who is chairman of tho War Commitments Committee. As I indicated to the House yesterday, the responsible officers are now working upon the matter on the basis indicated in my statement to the House recently. I shall not be able to give the information asked for in the form of a statement until next week. I shall keep in mind the points raised by the honorable member for New England.

page 3061

WHEAT INDUSTRY

Mr WILLIAMS:

– Did the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture read in the Sydney Morning Herald recently the following report: -

page 3061

WHEAT IMPOST ANOMALY

Miller Urges Revision

New South Wales poultry and dairying Industries would suffer disaster unless there was an early and drastic revision of the allocation of wheat imports into New South Wales and Victoria, a leading Sydney miller said last night.

He said that the industries were already crippled by n serious shortage of bran and pollard.

Wheat imports allotted to New South Wales by the Australian Wheat Board were far below the amount necessary to meet local flour requirements, he said.

The quota allotted to Victoria was far in excess of domestic requirements. “The effect of this”, he said, “is that Victoria is now becoming heavily overstocked with flour, and mills are producing additional quantities of bran and pollard, which will be retained in that State for the benefit of the local poultry and dairying industries.”

Does the Minister realize that if those allegations are true, the poultry and dairying industries of New .South Wales are being treated most unfairly? Will the Minister comment on those statements, and, if (necessary, make a proper adjustment of supplies?

Mr SCULLY:
ALP

– My attention has been drawn to the statements, which definitely are not correct. Allegations have been made in New South Wales that Victoria is receiving preferential treatment; but, in Victoria, allegations are made that New South Wales is enjoying preferential treatment at the expense of that State. However, the authorities responsible for the distribution of wheat make no differentiation ‘between States, and all the quotas are equitably distributed. Speaking advisedly, I believe that Victoria is not receiving greater supplies than those to which it is justly entitled. In no circumstances would I or the Australian Wheat Board, which is responsible for the distribution, make any unfair discrimination between States. The honorable member may rest assured that the distribution of wheat and mill offals is made on the most equitable basis.

page 3062

QUESTION

MANUFACTURE OF MOTOR VEHICLES

Mr HUTCHINSON:
DEAKIN, VICTORIA

– Has the Min ister for Post-war Reconstruction read in the press reports that the manufacture of motor cars has been commenced in Great Britain, and that the estimates of the new prices are from 30 to 100 per cent. higher than the pre-war prices of the vehicles? As many factors are conducive to the effective promotion of the motor-car industry in Australia, is the Minister in a position to inform the House what progress has been made in examining the offers submitted to the Government to manufacture motor vehicles here? If the Minister has no information at present, when does he expect to be able to make a definite statement to the House?

Mr DEDMAN:
Minister in charge of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research · CORIO, VICTORIA · ALP

– The Government has received offers from various firms interested in the manufacture of motor cars in Australia, and about six proposals are at present in its hands. They cover a wide variety of motor cars, and must be related to the policy of the Government for the future defence requirements of this country. For that reason, all of the proposals must be examined most carefully. I am not yet in a position to make a statement to the House on the progress that has been made in examining them, but I shall do so at the earliest possible date.

page 3062

QUESTION

MAN-POWER

Releases from the Forces.

Dr GAHA:
DENISON, TASMANIA

– I address to the Acting Prime Minister the following questions. - (1) As three committees have been appointed by Cabinet torecommend the release of 50,000 service personnel, will the Government insist that the services shall grant access to the committees in order to enable them to carry out the declared policy of the Administration? (2) Does the Government intend, through those committees, to insist that high ranking and highly paid officers, acting in a bureaucratic capacity at home, shall be discharged from the services in the same proportions as the rank and. file? (3) Is it the intention of the Government vastly and rapidly to reduce government departments which did not exist before the outbreak of war, and will be of little use in future, except to cause as much public inconvenience as possible, to say nothing of the wastage of manpower, which is urgently required for rehabilitation purposes?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– Taking first the latter portion of the honorable member’s question as I have already indicated to the House, a special committee has been appointed to examine the staffing of all war-time establishments. The chairman of that committee is the Assistant Commissioner of the Public Service Board, Mr. Pinner, and another member is Mr. A. A. Fitzgerald, a well-known public accountant. The third member will be the representative of whatever department is being investigated. This committee has already commenced its work, and as it deals with each department, it will present an interim report. I shall be assisted in the consideration of these reports by my colleague the Minister for Information (Mr. Calwell). In regard to the committees which will investigate service departments, an independent chairman has been appointed by Cabinet in each case. Other members have to be approved by the Minister in charge of the service department concerned. I am not able to say who the members of these committees will be, with the exception of the chairmen; but I can assure the House that the Government will see that nothing shall stand in the way of a thorough investigation. I refer, of course, to non-operational establishments. Honorable members will understand that the investigations will not be extended to operational establishments. I am hopeful that the work will proceed as rapidly as possible, and that the interim reports which will be considered by the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin), or the Acting Prime Minister, assisted by the Vice-President of the Executive Council (Mr. Beasley), will be dealt with expeditiously.

page 3063

COALMINING INDUSTRY

Coal Reserves. mr. HARRISON.-Can the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Shipping say whether the Government’s decision to set up a commission of inquiry into the coal-mining industry has resulted in fewer stoppages on the coalfields, or greater production of coal? If so, will the Minister make available some information as to how coal reserves at present compare with the reserves at the end of 1944? As reports in this morning’s press state that coal is being rushed to Sydney because the supply margin is so small, can the Minister say what other action the Government intends to take to increase coal production in New South Wales?

Mr BEASLEY:
ALP

– So far as I can gather from the newspapers, the working of mines fluctuates daily. On some days full time is worked, and on other days no work at all is done. To obtain the exact statistics sought by the honorable member, it will be necessary for me to discuss the matter with the Coal Commissioner. I shall do that, and furnish a detailed reply to the honorable member as soon as possible.

page 3063

QUESTION

VICTORIAN SUGAR SUPPLIES

Mr HOLT:

– Can the Minister for Labor and National Service say whether there has been any later development in connexion with the settlement of the sugar dispute in Victoria, since he last spoke on this matter?

Mr HOLLOWAY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · FLP; ALP from 1936

– Unfortunately,I am not able to say that the dispute has been settled ; but negotiations are still proceeding in Melbourne.

page 3063

QUESTION

AUSTRALASIAN COUNCIL OF TRADES UNIONS CONFERENCE

Tobacco and Beer Issue

Mr HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

– When does the Acting Prime Minister propose to answer the question which appears on the noticepaper in my name regarding the issue of tobacco and beer to the conference of the Australasian Council of Trades Unions and how that issue compares with the ration to servicemen, prisoners of war, and others?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– After the honorable member had asked the question, I spoke to the Minister for Trade and Customs (Senator Keane), who is in charge of this matter, and asked him to prepare an answer. I shall ascertain how soon it will be possible to supply an answer to the honorable gentleman.

page 3063

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Mr CHIFLEY:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

– I move -

That intervening business be postponed until after Order of the Day No. 2, Government Business.

In order to facilitate consideration of the Commonwealth Bank Bill 1945, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) has agreed to postpone submission of the motion standing in his name on to-day’s notice-paper. The honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) also has agreed to defer consideration of the two motions of which he has given notice. One of these motions relates to the order of precedence of Mr. Speaker, and I have discussed the matter with him personally, so that he is aware of the progress that has been made by the committee of inquiry. A conference has been held by Ministers on the subject of the motion submitted by the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) relating to the Landlord and Tenant Regulations, and the honorable gentleman has agreed to the deferment of further discussion of the motion. I have spoken to the honorable member for Gippsland (Mr. Bowden) regarding the motion which he submitted in relation to the Economic Organization Regulations, and, although I am aware that he is not satisfied with what I said in this House when the motion was submitted, he has agreed to the postponement of further debate. I thank the honorable gentlemen concerned for their consideration.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 3063

COMMONWEALTH BANK BILL 1945

In committee: Consideration resumed from the 13th June(vide page 3016).

Clauses 102 to 106 agreed to.

Clause 107- (J.) Subject to this Fart, loans may be “made by the Bank, through the General Banking Division, to individuals and to building societies, for the erection or purchase of homes or for the discharge of mortgages on homes. (2.) In making such loans, the Bank shall give preference to loans for the erection of homes and for the purchase of newly erected homes.

Mr MENZIES:
Leader of the Opposition · Kooyong

– Clause 107 is the first clause of a part which deals with housing loans, and it involves a departure from the existing law. At the present time, the business in question is done by the savings bank under section 74 of the Commonwealth Bank Act. This section provides - (1.) The Savings Bank may invest any moneys held by it -

in advancing money, in accordance with the Commonwealth Housing Act 1927, for the purchase or erection of dwelling-houses, and for the discharge of mortgages on dwellinghouses.

Other paragraphs in that section also facilitate the making of advances for home-building. That power will be taken from the savings bank by this bill, as will be made clear in a later clause, and will be transferred to the general banking division. Sub-clause 1 of clause 107 states -

Subject to this Part, loans may be made by the Bank, through the General Banking Division, . to individuals and to building societies, for the erection or purchase of homes or for the discharge oi mortgages on homes.

I refer to that, first, because we ought to have clear in our minds the nature of the change that is proposed, and, secondly, because an important question arises as to whether a provision of this sort should be made through a general banking division or through a savings bank. After all, the use of savings bank money for a longterm investment of this kind on real security is a well-established practice, and I do not believe that anybody will quarrel with it. Any investment of bank money for the purpose of homebuilding, to be effective, must be a long-term investment. The home-owner requires accommodation which will not terminate in a year or two. The investment of money on long term by savings banks is,- of course, a very well recognized feature of their financial methods. It may seem, on the face, rather odd that a savings bank should borrow short - because practically the whole of its borrowing is at call - and should lend long; but in practice, and in result, over very many years it has been found completely sound for a savings bank to borrow at call and to lend its money on long term, particularly for houses’, as under the Credit Foncier schemes of the various States. That is being switched away from the Savings Bank, and into the General Banking Division, where considerations not necessarily the same may apply. I am left in some state of mental confusion as to whether it is really considered that this legislative change will produce more houses, or whether the only idea is to put up a certain amount of window dressing, in order to make it appear that housing loans now represent a special activity of the bank, whereas all that has happened is that the power to make housing loans has been taken out of the Savings Bank and put into the General Banking Division.

Mr LAZZARINI:
Minister for Home Security and Minister for Works · Werriwa · ALP

.- There is a definite reason for this change. Sub-clause 2 provides -

In making such loans, the Bank shall give preference to loans for the erection of homes and for the purchase of newly erected homes.

Clause 108 provides* -

Loans under this Part shall be made at the lowest practicable rates of interest.

The Government hopes that the organization to be set up will be able to reduce interest to the lowest practicable rate. If advances are obtained from the Savings Bank, the rate must be, even if only at the cost of issuance, from 1 per cent, to

H per cent, above the Tate paid to depositors in the Savings Bank. When the Commonwealth Bank is building homes in the tens of thousands that will be necessary, and repayments of advances are being made, it may be possible to charge a lower rate of interest than would have to be charged, if advances were made from Savings Bank funds only. The General Banking Division will be able to use some Savings Bank funds if it needs them, but it is hoped that that will not be necessary after the organization has been developed, but that home building may be financed completely without recourse to that means, and at the lowest practicable rate of interest.

Mr FADDEN:
Darling DownsLeader of the Australian Country party

– I cannot follow the reasoning of the Minister (Mr. Lazzarini). He says that the Government hopes to he able to mr.!:e building as cheap as possible, by using other than Savings Bank funds. I do not know what he has in mind, unless the idea be to reduce to a ridiculously uneconomic minimum the rate of interest on fixed deposits in the banks, .and to make available in the general banking structure such money at the cheapest rate. Obviously, housing is the best outlet for savings bank funds; there is no better security or spread of risk. The very foundation of savings bank operations is the utilization of the money which it obtains from the savings of the wage-earners, in the provision of shelter for the people generally, at the lowest cost. The departure from that principle in this legislation, will prove dangerous. Loans for housing, and to building societies, are more appropriate business for a savings bank than for the central bank. If the Government hopes to obtain money at a cheaper rate than that at which it can be provided by the savings bank, it must envisage the exclusion of the trading banks from the field of fixed deposits. Advances could not be made more cheaply, unless the rate of interest on fixed deposits were compulsorily reduced. What is the Government’s view of the likely result? Does it believe that the people will make fixed deposits with the general trading department, or with the savings bank at a higher rate of interest? The excuse or reason given by the Minister for the proposed change is ridiculous in the extreme. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) has pointed out that, paradoxical though it may appear to be, the people are prepared to deposit their money at call, and to have it invested in long-term securities. That is made possible by the quantum of deposits in the savings banks, compared with the withdrawals. One has only to study the savings bank statistics to realize that. The total deposits in Australian savings banks were: £245,600,000 at .the 30th

June, 1939, £358,000,000 a,t the 30th June, 1943, £471,500,000 at the 30th June, 1944, and £543,201,000 at the 31st May, 1945. I repeat that there is not a better class of security than home building; the risk is spread over the whole of the continent. In addition, the psychological effect is most advantageous. The greatest factor in making for a contented family life, is the ownership or prospective ownership of a home. The Government’s departure from a ruling principle in connexion with the utilization of savings bank funds, is unwise and uneconomic. It is mistaken if it believes that cheaper money can be widely obtained. Undoubtedly the whole of the financial structure will be upset. The cheapest money available should be provided for housing, because the cost of a house has a permanent effect. If the money expended on housing carries a high rate of interest, the people’s cost of living is increased. The savings bank method of finance is the best that could possibly be adopted, because the aggregation of the individual savings of the people is available for the housing of individuals throughout the Commonwealth. This clause provides for many departures from the basic principles of a wise housing plan. I move -

That, after sub-clause (1.), the following new sub-clause be inserted: - “ (1a.) For the purposes of this Part, there shall be a Housing Loans Department of the Bank, which shall be provided with separate management and with the necessary liaison to ensure a co-ordinated policy with the other departments of the Bank.”

Separate management is provided for in the bill in respect of the Rural Credits Department, the Note Issue Department, the Mortgage Bank Department and the Industrial Finance Department, yet housing, the greatest activity which the Government can expeditiously undertake, is to form part and parcel of the general banking activities. The call for housing in Australia is loud enough to be heard by everybody. There is a most pressing need for houses and shelter throughout the Commonwealth. There should be concerted activities’ in connexion with the housing of the people, in order to provide the fundamental requisite of’ a contented family life and a protection against the introduction of foreign political doctrines. One of the best means of1 excluding foreign “ isms “ is to ensure contentment among the people, and the first fundamental of contentment is house ownership. The Government, by its method of dealing with this matter as envisaged in the bill, shows that it regards the housing problem as of only secondary importance.

I submit that a separate authority, with specialized knowledge of housing, is a more pressing necessity than the Industrial Finance Department. The housing department must be wisely financed; it can only be carried on successfully by competent employees and the support of a contented populace. Therefore, we should provide decent housing for the people, and specific and concentrated attention should be given to this pressing national problem. For that reason, no doubt, the government in 1927 introduced the Commonwealth Housing Bill, under which a specific authority was created to deal with the problem under its own management and its own charter. The operations of that authority were not included among the general activities of the Commonwealth Bank. It was established to utilize the savings of the people to the greatest possible degree. The municipal authorities were called into service as far as the countryside was concerned, and in the large cities it harnessed the friendly societies and the building societies. If the Government is sincere in its alleged desire to meet the pressing need for houses, it should at least give as much consideration to the financial activities of this aspect of public life as it has given to the Industrial Finance, the Rural Credits and the Mortgage Bank Departments. If there was ever a demand for a separate authority with a specific charter and specialized management, it is to be found in the urgent needs which arise in dealing with the housing problem.

Dr GAHA:
Denison

.- I mentioned in my second-reading speech on the bill that there are reasons why a housing department should be divorced from; the other activities of the Commonwealth Bank, but I view the matter from a different aspect from that of previous speakers. We should consider the best way to deal with the man who accepts great family responsibilities. The situation is somewhat met by reductions of taxes on a family basis and by child endowment, but the whole history of. the basic wage shows that, since 1911, the cost of living has increased with every increase of that wage. In point of fact, its -actual purchasing power in relation to modern needs has decreased. I hope to illustrate an entirely new approach to the problem. We all agree that we must have population. That is no longer a matter for debate. In the ‘nineties of the last century, the number of children in the average Australian family was about 6.2, whereas to-day it is only about 2. The basic wage, if it has become effective at all, has done so merely because there are fewer mouths to feed and reduced family responsibility has been undertaken by the people. A housing scheme could be employed to benefit the people materially. As soon as we provide child endowment, the lag is, after a while, caught up, and the material benefit intended is lost owing to increases -of the cost of living. The overall effect on the individual is that the intended benefit is not derived. I suggest that more could be achieved by dropping the system of child endowment and concentrating on providing cheap houses for men with large families. Take the case of a man on the basic wage with five children - almost a miracle in these days. Surely, instead of paying him 20s. a week child endowment, and thereby helping to raise the cost of living, it would be far better to give him a house rent free until his children reach a certain specified age, after which he would begin paying rent. A glaring anomaly of the present system is that we place the heaviest burdens on people who are prepared to accept the responsibility of populating the country, while at the same time we propose to expend vast amounts of money on immigration. Why not spend this money on the provision of cheap houses so that people may be encouraged to have families? This is one purpose for which we would be justified in using national credit. If we are able to use national credit to an amount of £400,000,000 or £500,000,000 in order to save our hides in an unproductive enterprise like waging war, surely we can use it in a reasonable way on such a productive enterprise as the provision of houses, especially as we shall thereby be laying no extra burden upon the taxpayers, and the money will be returned over a long period. A properly built house will last half a century, so that there would be time enough to get back its cost even if it were at first given rent free to the man with a large family. A scheme could be worked out whereby a man with five or more children would occupy his house free of rent. Then, when the first child reached the age of sixteen years, he would begin paying rent at the rate of 5s. a week, and as each successive child reached sixteen the householder’s rent would be increased by 5s. Ct might be that the full cost of the bouse would not be returned in all circumstances, but the scheme would still be well worth while. I do not suggest that this concession should be granted to men with only one or two children, lt should be definitely reserved for those with large families. The facts do not bear out the claim that there has been any real increase in the purchasing power of the basic wage. Men and women who were born in the eighties of the last century are the old people of to-day, and statistics show that the rate of longevity has increased from 10,000 in 1,000,000 to 2-2,000. Thus, for each million of the population, there are now 12,000 more potential old-age pensioners to be provided for, a fact which must seriously affect the economy of the nation. It is evident that the basic wage in the eighties must at least have been sufficient to sustain life and permit of the rearing of healthy families. Otherwise, so many of the people who were born at that time would not now be attaining old age. It does not dispose of my suggestion to say that its acceptance would involve a departure from accepted financial methods. During the war years, we have departed from those’ methods by raising hundreds of millions of pounds in unorthodox fashion, namely by the use of the national credit, and our economy has not broken down. Therefore, there is no reason why we should not use the same method to finance a housing scheme that would be of benefit to those who stand most in need of it. It is all very well to use savings bank deposits to provide houses for the moderately well off, but the man on the basic wage, who has five or six children, cannot be expected to have much in a savings bank. I trust that the Government will see its way to give serious consideration to this proposal.- Something of the kind is necessary if we are to arrest the present decline of population.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

, - This clause provides that loans may be made by the bank to individuals and building societies for the erection or purchase of homes, &c. I propose to move an amendment which will have the effect of enabling the bank to make loans also to local government authorities and to government or semi-governmental authorities which administer schemes for providing, or assisting in the provision of, dwelling-houses.

The CHAIRMAN’ (Mr. Riordan).There is already an amendment before the committee - that moved by the Leader of the Australian Country party (Mr. Fadden).

Mr ABBOTT:

– My amendment occurs earlier in the clause than does that of the Leader of the Australian Country party. The Royal Commission on Monetary and Banking Systems found that few facilities existed in rural areas for the borrowing of money for housing purposes. A mortgage bank may deal with the problem of advancing money on broad acres. The problem of homes for country dwellers was not dealt with. It may not be generally realized that rural slums are worse than the slums in many of the metropolitan areas. Honorable members who travel regularly between Sydney and Canberra have seen from the train numbers of slum dwellings in the districts through which they pass. The Royal Commission on Monetary and Banking Systems found that there was a great reluctance on the part of various financial institutions, including government institutions, to lend money to people in country areas. The reasons given were that it was expensive and difficult to supervise securities in such places, and that should a borrower fail to meet his obligations there might be difficulty in realizing on the security. The commission also said that in respect of small borrowers other than residents in large towns the difficulties were accentuated. This bill does not remove those difficulties. It is not sufficient to say that loans may be made to individuals through the general banking department of the Commonwealth Bank or by building societies. Individuals in country districts who require loans may be situated at some distance from a branch of the Commonwealth Bank; and, even if that be not so, the town in which the branch of the bank is situated often is far away from the bank’s head office, to which all applications for loans must be referred, and where there may be a lack of sympathy because of an absence of local knowledge. The building societies do not fill the gap, because they operate only in the larger country towns; in the villages and small towns there is a distinct lack of such facilities. We have to envisage a position in which local governing bodies, such as the South Australian Housing Trust, will be given authority to obtain loans from the Commonwealth Bank for the erection of homes for the people, or to make funds available to individuals for the building of homes.

Mr Sheehan:

– Does the honorable gentleman suggest that the rate of interest charged to such bodies should be lower than to individuals?

Mr ABBOTT:

– A provision to this effect is already contained in the bill: advances up to 90 per cent, of the value pf a dwelling may be made to building societies as against 85 per cent, to individuals. It is always cheaper to borrow money from an institution on a 90 per cent, basis than to borrow 85 per cent, and obtain the remainder on second mortgage from some other financial institution. Undoubtedly, the rate of interest would be lower. Members of the Australian Country party believe in the decentralization of government, so that country dwellers may deal with men whom they know, and who, in turn, know them. Members of local governing bodies would be personally acquainted with applicants for advances for the building of homes, and also with their properties. The clause should be widened to include local authorities, and to enable them to do the work which in other places may be done by building societies, and, in the larger towns, under the provisions of this bill. Throughout New South Wales many local governing bodies are endeavouring to have themselves brought within these building schemes, and to enter a field of activity which they have not entered before. There is evidence of that trend in the Ryde and Tamworth municipal councils. The former already has a home building programme, and the latter has purchased many acres of land on which it is proposed to erect homes in the post-war period. That is an excellent movement which should be encouraged. Not only should there be decentralization of finance, but there should also be decentralization of other activities, by giving to local governing bodies power to deal with people in their districts in ways which they cannot do at present. Such a system would ensure that advantage would be taken of local knowledge, and it would also obviate the necessity for applicants to travel, in some instances, hundreds of miles to obtain assistance from people who, because they do not understand local conditions, may be unsympathetic. I hope that the Minister will accept the amendment I propose to move when the amendment of the Leader of the Australian Country party is withdrawn.

Amendment - by leave - temporarily withdrawn.

Amendment (by Mr. Abbott) proposed -

That, in sub-clause (1.), after the word “ societies “, the following words be inserted : - “ local governing authorities, or government or semi-government authorities, which administer schemes for providing or assisting in providing dwelling houses”.

Mir. MORGAN” (Reid) [12.7].- The honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) has correctly pointed out that the Commonwealth Bank has not a branch in every hamlet. It would not be practicable for the bank to do so. Therefore, we must look to local bodies, such as local governing authorities and co-operative building societies, to handle advances because they come more closely in contact with individuals in isolated centres. For that reason such bodies are better qualified to handle transactions of this kind.. This method is already being followed in New South Wales. To-day, over 300 building societies are operating throughout that State, catering for small as well as large centres. Other States, particularly Victoria, are following that example. I understand that -similar legislation is now being considered in Victoria in respect of building societies along the lines of those operating in New South Wales. Those societies are familiar with local conditions. They in-<) administered by local residents- who also know the suitability of applicants for advances. These advances are made on liberal terms. The Commonwealth Bank has already financed housing construction through such bodies in New South Wales to an amount of £2,000,000. Advances up to 90 per cent, of the value of the security can be made, and the period of repayment is usually 21 years, although in some cases it is 28 years; and the rate of interest is now 3J per cent. Recently, provision was made to permit of advances up to 100 per cent, of the value of the security. Perhaps, the rate of interest could be further reduced, but in other respects the terms offered by building societies in New South Wales must be the most liberal obtainable anywhere. In local building societies, the directors, who are local residents, know the credit worthiness of applicants. They know whether an applicant is in permanent employment, or of good character. As I have said, the Commonwealth Bank has played a very important, part in that programme, and will continue to do so. I regard this part of the bill as a complete answer to the argument adduced by the right honorable member for Cowper (‘Sir Earle Page) with respect to clause 4, which repeals the Commonwealth Housing Acts, because this scheme is more liberal than that provided under those acts. Insofar as the provision of special advances arc concerned, this part covers more particularly wage-earners. It enables the Commonwealth Bank to play its full part in our housing programme. In respect of such advances, the bank is not required to obtain a government guarantee. In addition to the government guaranteed building societies in New South Wales, steps have been taken to increase the powers of local government bodies with respect to home-building and housing finance. Under that system, the facilities advocated by the honorable member for New England will be provided in adequate measure. I repeat that directors of local building societies and members of local government bodies will be better qualified to handle applications for advances than managers of branches of the bank situated considerable distances from the areas in which applicants reside. In addition, the Rural Bank provides facilities along the lines advocated by the honorable member, and the Commonwealth Bank is already assisting that institution as well as other bodies which are better situated to handle applications in the light of local conditions. In addition, assurance societies and other financial institutions will play their part in the home-finance field. Our main problem in the immediate post-war period will be to overcome shortages of manpower and materials, but there should be no dearth of finance.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- Although I am not in agreement with this measure generally, as it contains revolutionary financial proposals in accordance with the Government’s socialist policy, I approve this provision to make loans available to building societies and organizations as well as individuals for the purpose of building homes. Housing is our No. 1 domestic priority. Yesterday, a big protest meeting was. held in Melbourne to discuss the housing shortage, and returned soldier organizations are holding meetings to discuss the matter. Honorable members are aware of the great distress resulting from the present acute shortage of housing. That problem has been aggravated because the Government has no definite policy on housing or housing finance. For several years now it has had no finance for war service homes, whilst the Directorate of War

During the last three years only 8,000 homes have been erected throughout this country. In 1942 the number was 1,000; in the following year it was 2,000, and last year 5,000. This progress will be entirely inadequate to cope with the Australia-wide demand for approximately 500,000 homes. The New Zealand Government has tackled this problem in the right way, and has not suspended activity during the war. It has had to deal with the same war-time problems as the Commonwealth Government, but, in the three-year period in which Australia ha3 built S,000 homes, it has built 50,000. of which 25,000 are reserved for servicemen. This Government has failed hopelessly to provide a housing scheme in any way comparable with the schemes of New Zealand, Canada and Great Britain. Although Great Britain has been besieged, and blitzed from one end to the other, its Government has not neglected the housing programme, and is now increasing its efforts to provide homes for the people. It Ls securing assistance from Norway, which is supplying prefabricated homes, and it is experimenting with the construction of aluminium and steel cottages. Its effort is whole-hearted. The mere provision of money for housing under this bill is no guarantee that houses will be built. The Government should make a more definite effort to get on with the job. Australia’s war service homes programme looks ridiculous in comparison with New Zealand’s effort on behalf of .servicemen. In the last three years, the War Service Homes Commission has built fifteen houses, of which fourteen were for soldiers who served in the war of 1914-18. Apparently, the 350,000 to 400,000 men who’ have already been discharged from the services in this war were expected to struggle for the right to occupy the remaining house.

Mr FRANCIS:

– It is utter nonsense, because the Minister now says that housing is a matter for the States, lt is time the Government got down to the job ofl providing houses and the bureaucrats gave up using all their energies to find excuses for not building houses. The fact that clause 11 provides that money shall be made available for housing is no guarantee that houses will be built. There must be a national effort to produce houses. The bureaucrats who have been finding excuses for failure to commence a housing programme must change their policy and mass the whole of our national resources for housing purposes. The housing proposals in this hill are inadequate. The Government has- provided for the Rural Credits Department of the Commonwealth Bank to continue to assist rural industries. At the present time, the department helps primary producers to market their goods in an orderly fashion. That department was established for that purpose in 1925, when the right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page) was Treasurer in the Bruce-Page Government. The bill also provides for a Mortgage Bank Department of the Commonwealth Bank to provide assistance to farmers in financial difficulties, and for an Industrial Finance Department to deal with secondary industries. Having regard to the magnitude of the task of providing adequate housing in Australia, it is imperative that we should have also a housing department of the Commonwealth Bank free from any bureaucratic restrictions. If the Government established such a department, satisfactory progress would be made.

Sitting suspended from 12.45 to 2.15 p.m.

Mr FRANCIS:

– The provision which the Government proposes to make will fall far short of what is required in order to overtake the leeway in home construction. Financial provision alone will not provide homes. The Government may be satisfied that, by this means, the 500,000 homes required will be constructed, but it will learn that much more will be needed if the problem is to be solved. It is imperative that the whole of the resources of the Commonwealth should be harnessed, and that all our energies should be concentrated on the erection of homes as rapidly as possible. The Government should accept the amendment, which provides that local authorities and quasi-local authorities also should come within ., the scheme. The more instrumentalities there are constructing homes simultaneously, the greater will be the number provided.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Riordan).The first portion of the honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr FRANCIS:

– As no other honorable member has risen to speak, I shall take my second period now. Local authorities, Starr-Bowkett societies, and other institutions associated with home construction, should be co-opted by the Government; otherwise, the problem will become one of the most serious that the nation has ever had to solve. If we are to face up to the task squarely, there must be a separate department of the Commonwealth Bank, properly organized and financed, and staffed with house-building experts. Nothing less will meet the position. I hope that the Government does not consider that it will have done all that it could do, after it has made financial provision to build homes. Materials and plant are equally essential. If we were to agree to a building programme to-morrow, the necessary supplies of bricks, timber, tiles and roofing requisites would not be available for from twelve to eighteen months. Speed, is essential. Strike after strike is occurring at Lysaghts Newcastle Works Proprietary Limited, and such difficulties will have to be surmounted if materials in the required quantities are to be provided. The problem in Great Britain is greater than in Australia. because that country has been blitzed from end to end. The world has been combed for building materials, and these are flowing in a steady stream towards Great Britain. In addition, arrangements have been made with other countries for the delivery of prefabricated houses. Nothing of that kind has been done in Australia. The. problem of man-power, too, must he tackled. Some honorable members treat the matter with levity. Meetings of protest, and processions in the capital cities, are constantly drawing attention to the acuteness of the position. The people are utterly dissatisfied with the Government’s handling of the matter. The war in Europe has come to a close, and if the struggle in the Pacific ends quickly the Government will become the object of attack, for having merely toyed with the problem. In Canberra, a new building is being erected for the Prices Branch, which ought to be reducing its activities and the strength of its personnel. Major building operations are proceeding throughout Australia. The honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) has referred to building construction at Tottenham and Broadmeadows, the estimated cost of which is £860,000. If the materials and man-power that are being used in that connexion were diverted to house construction, much better results would be obtained. Recently, mention was made of the fact that money and materials had ‘been made available for alterations to the head-quarters, of the Communist party in Sydney. I believe that I have said sufficient to convince the Government that it does not fully appreciate the seriousness of the problem. I repeat, that financial provision alone will not ensure the building of houses; materials and man-power also must be provided.

Mr BRYSON:
Bourke

.- Stripped of its irrelevancies, the speech of tb” honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis) represented an advocacy of the nationalization of the building industry. The honorable member claimed that financial provision, alone would not be sufficient. I agree with that contention. It should be the duty of the Commonwealth Parliament to make every provision for the building of homes for the workers. But I remind the honorable member and his colleagues that when referendum proposals were put to the people, designed to obtain additional powers for the Commonwealth to enable it to legislate for, among other things, the building of homes, the Opposition as a body violently opposed them, and succeeded in having them defeated’. Yet when that decision of the people is being respected and the Government is going as far as it can under the Constitution by making financial provision, the honorable member asserts that the Commonwealth should be responsible for the building of a maximum of 500,000 homes for the workers. I hope, that the provision made by the clause will be used to the greatest degree by the Commonwealth Bank. I realize fully the necessity to provide homes for the workers. The present shortage of houses is not due entirely to the Government, or to the fact that only a few houses have been built during the war period ; it has existed for from 25 to 30 years. In 1920, rents were high, and those who wished to secure a home were asked’ by supporters of honorable members opposite who owned, house property, to pay from £10 to £20 for the key. I did not hear honorable members opposite then advocating that the Commonwealth Government should relieve the shortage. The position was similar in 1930. But in .1933 and 1934, thousands of homes were available and could havebeen rented on the condition that the high rents demanded were paid. Any man whose income was sufficient to pay what was asked for a working-class homes, then had the choice of from 20 to 3f> houses in any of the capital cities. In the last few years, the unemployment problem has been solved’, because those who were without work have been put into uniform or into war industries. The workers to-day are earning sufficient to enable them to pay a reasonable rent, and because the number of houses available it not sufficient to meet demands, the Opposition loudly demands that a homebuild hig programme shall be pushed ahead rapidly. If that were done, and Australia’s war effort were detrimentally affected, those same members would cry to high heaven that the Government was unpatriotic and was not pulling its full weight. The right procedure would be to ensure the proper housing of the workers. The Government has informed the Parliament that, so far as is humanly possible in conjunction with a full war effort, homes for the workers will be provided. I trust that private capitalistic concerns which, have battened on the workers for years will be excluded from any housebuilding scheme. I wish that the Commonwealth had sufficient power not only to provide finance but also to build homes.

The honorable member for Moreton has advocated the setting up of a special department in the Commonwealth Bank, staffed with building experts. Yet, it is only a matter of days since members of the Opposition strongly claimed that there were too many housing authorities in Australia, and advocated the removal of some of them. The honorable member for Moreton may consider that his arguments are consistent, but I do not think that he will convince any one else that they are. “Whilst opposing nationalization in every form, he yet demands, in effect, that the Government shall nationalize the building industry. I should be delighted to see the Commonwealth Government building houses for the people, but immediately it began to do that the Opposition would attempt to prevent it, by invoking the constitutional limitations of the 7powers of this Parliament. The housing section of the bill does not go far enough. £ should like to see a Commonwealth authority set up for the building of homes, which should be supplied interest free to the workers. Then, they might have a chance of owning their own homes, instead of paying exorbitant rents for the rest of their Jives. This Parliament oan provide money through the Commonwealth Bank for houses, but it must depend on other authorities to build, them.

Mr HUGHES:
North Sydney

– The question before the committee is one of supreme importance. The Government and the country are faced with several complex and difficult problems. That of housing is not only of vital importance, but of extreme urgency, and with every passing clay the need for action becomes more acute. The Government has spoken from time to time about its intentions with regard to housing; this clause affords it an opportunity to do something in the matter. Recently it expressed its intention to finance the building of 20,000 houses, but. of course that would by no means overcome the difficulty for the Deputy Commissioner for Housing in Victoria is reported to have said that 225,000 houses are needed. That, includes, of course, the conversion of the slums of some of our great cities, of which the city of Sydney provides an outstanding example. These schemes are for the future: But houses are urgently needed, for both the people now in Australia and those who will return to it when the war is over. Plans and blueprints and grandiose schemes are not sufficient. We need real houses in which the people can live in comfort.

I have sought for many years to awaken the public to the importance of family life, which is the only safe .basis on which a democracy can hope to live and flourish. The present interest that the people are taking in housing affords this Parliament an opportunity to blaze the trail and set the pace. The War Service Homes Department has built or acquired 37,000 houses in the last 25 years. Many more houses are now needed in much less time. This Industrial Finance Department, which now appears on the stage for the first time is to provide some of the money for this great work. It seems to play a relatively unimportant role, but it threatens, like Aaron’s rod, to swallow up all the other rods. If we are to grapple with the housing problem in a national way, we must contemplate the expenditure of hundreds of millions of pounds. To build even 20,000 houses, at an average cost of £1,500 each, would absorb a large sum of money. The people require not any kind of houses, but real homes, spacious and replete with all modern conveniences, in order to reduce domestic labour to a minimum. For years I have insistently called attention to the fall of the birth-rate, a most ominous sign in the story of nations, and preceding in almost every instance their downfall. The fall of the birth-rate in Australia has been mo3t marked. Family life seems to have gone out of fashion, but if people are to rear families they must have homes. The provision of decent bornes suggests, and almost ensures, the cult of family life. All of us, irrespective of our party political beliefs, are vitally interested in the provision of proper homes for the people. Everybody seeks happiness, and a share of the bounteous harvest of modern civilization. He wants his place in the sun, and he wants hi& family to have a share in it. If family life is to flourish, he must have a home with a garden, and a place where children can play. Every home should have up-to-date cooking conveniences and a refrigerator. The provision of such conveniences should be made compulsory by law.

Under this clause the manager of the Industrial Finance Department is to make loans at the lowest practicable rate of interest, but the funds available for these loans will be determined by the Governor of the bank. I put it to honorable members that if this proposal is to be more than a placard, the funds’ which the Commonwealth Bank will make available must run into many millions of pounds. This is a big job and it has to be done now. I am not one of those who seeks to place on the shoulders of this Government responsibilities which are shared by its predecessors in office. There is an acute shortage of houses and a clamant demand that houses shall he built; but before we can build houses we must have bricks, cement, tiles, timber and a thousand other things, and we cannot conjure them out of the air. After years of talk we have nothing to show at present but plans and planners. Lack of finance is not the reason why there are insufficient houses. What is wanted is action. First of all there must be some authority powerful enough to decide the policy to be adopted, and to give effect to it. As for the materials and manpower, the release of 50,000 men from the fighting services has been decided upon, and a considerable number has already been released.

– I cannot say; but 1 know that houses built by governments cost too much. The cost of houses must be related to the earnings of the people.. If we build houses at such a cost that a high rent must be charged for them, then wages will be increased to meet this charge. Interest rates- must be kept as low as possible. We are paying 3^ per cent, on the money we borrow. We must not charge the occupants of the homes more than 3^ per cent., plus the actual cost of administration. There is provision in the bill for the disposal of the profits of the scheme. We do not want to make profits. We want to do some good for the community. We ought not to go into this business in order to make profits, but if we do make any, they should go back into the pool.

To sum up, there is an acute shortage of houses; action is called for - we must begin our housing programme immediately. We must build homes, spacious and convenient. Costs must be kept to a minimum, and the rate of interest which we charge home-dwellers must not exceed the rate which we pay the people for the use of their money, plus the actual cost of administration. All this will involve the expenditure of a vast amount of money, and the Government must see that the money is available. It will cost more than a million or two to build 20,000 houses.

Mr Lazzarini:

– The cost will run into hundreds of millions of pounds eventually.

Mr HUGHES:

– That may be. We cannot build immediately all the houses that are required; but we ought to build between S,000 and 10,000 a year at least, and this should be the first business of the Government.

Mr SHEEHY:
Boothby

.- 1 support the Government’s proposals as set out in this clause, because I believe that every citizen is entitled to borrow, at a reasonable rate of interest, money with which to build himself a home. Honorable members opposite have talked a great deal about the need for more houses; but no one has suggested how the housing programme can be hurried.

Mr White:

– I suggested that more men should be released from the services for home building and for the manufacture of building materials.

Mr SHEEHY:

– The honorable member cited some figures relating to the position in Victoria. It seems to me that an unjustifiable campaign is in progress against the Government.

Mr White:

– The figures I used were prepared by the Master Builders Association. They had no political signifi-

CQ.T1C6,

Mr SHEEHY:

– The Deputy Director of Man-Power in South Australia has stated that there are as many persons engaged in the building trade in that State now as before the war. Recently a meeting was held in the Adelaide Town Hall under the chairmanship of the Mayor, to inaugurate what was described as the South Australian housing campaign. I am informed that about 200 people attended, and a resolution was carried. A copy of this was forwarded to me by the president, but who the president is was not disclosed. The resolution contained a lot of propaganda about the need to accelerate the building of houses; but it finished up by saying that, although they want more houses to be built, they do not wish anything to be done, even in the way of house building, that would interfere in any way with the prosecution of the war. That is the policy of the Government. If we had lost the war no one would have had a home. In the past, nothing was done to abolish slums in the city of Adelaide. In some instances, two and even three families were forced to live in one house, not because there was a shortage of houses, but because there was probably only one person in the three families who was earning enough to pay the rent. Reference has been made to various building jobs which should not have been undertaken. I have myself brought to the notice of Ministers some examples of the kind, and they have been investigated. The Government was not responsible for what was done. We have now been inf ormed that the building of homes will be given priority over everything else, so that we can be assured that something will be done. The right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes) said that every one was entitled to a good home - that the laws should guarantee that, at least. I remind him that he was for a. long time in a position in which he could influence the making of laws, but he never did anything to solve the housing problem.

I have discussed with the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction (Mr. Dedman) the shortage of timber for building, and I have suggested that if timber is not available for roofing, angle iron might be used for this purpose. I am at present investigating the cost. According to the Adelaide Advertiser of the 17th November of last year, a Gallup-poll in England revealed that a majority of people there believed that housing was the most important post-war enterprise that could be undertaken. The importance of housing was realized by the present Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) when he was Prime Minister. But, refusing to make funds available for a rehousing plan for the people, he said -

My Government fully realizes the necessity for the provision of adequate housing for the people. Provision of housing is the responsibility of the States.

One would think that the position was different now if one believed the allegations of honorable gentlemen opposite that the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction (Mr. Dedman), through his administration of the Directorate of War Organization of Industry, is responsible. The right honorable gentleman went on -

But the Commonwealth has always endeavoured to co-operate with the States subject to constitutional and financial limitations. [ omit nothing from the honorable gentleman’s statement. I heartily agree with the right honorable member for North Sydney that the problem is not one of finance but of men and materials, and I am utterly sick and tired of people from one end of this Commonwealth to the other “ belting “ this Government for something for which it is not responsible, ft is time that the game was played fairly and squarely, as I, at all times, try to play it. People are not merely economic units, not merely producers and consumers, but men and women, husbands and wives, fathers and mothers, and brothers and sisters. The nation is founded on the family life of the community. So that there may be family life we must provide decent homes. So let us determinedly grapple with the problem. If housing is the responsibility of the States, let the Commonwealth help them to do the job. If materials commonly regarded as essential cannot be obtained, let us discover substitutes. To put it in one sentence, Australia will be a great and prosperous nation only to the extent that its family life is made strong and secure.

One or two honorable members opposite have referred to the South Australian Housing Trust. Without question, it has done a good job and, to a degree, relieved the housing shortage, but its activities are in no way related to the decentralization to which honorable members opposite pay lip service. It has built about 1,500 homes in one area and about 200 in another, both being industrial areas. Although the houses it has built are of a fairly comfortable type, they are semi-detached^ which is objectionable in a country with plenty of land available. My final word is that, aspublic men, we should band together in? this Parliament to co-operate with the State Parliaments in order to solve this outstanding problem which is so adversely affecting the development of the country.

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

– I congratulate the honorable member for Boothby (Mr. Sheehy) on the best speech he has made in this chamber. It was an excellent contribution to the debate and was delivered with knowledge, sincerity and spirit. The number of honorable members opposite who have spoken; about the housing problem testifies to theimportance of the subject, because most of them have been silent when otherimportant provisions of this bill havebeen under discussion. In view of what adequate housing means to the lives of the people, it is necessary that every honorable member should- take the utmost interest in the subject, as we do. The purpose of the amendment moved by the honorable member for New England’ (Mr. Abbott) is, not to frustrate, but to assist the Government in the development of its housing policy. The greater the number of agencies handling this problem the earlier will it .be solved. It is not capable of easy solution. Many years will elapse before we overtake the arrears. Therefore, every efficient agency which can be invoked should ‘be invoked, whether it be a housing commission, building society, the Commonwealth Bank itself, a local government authority, as is envisaged in the amendment, or any other authority willing to come into the scheme. The amendment, if carried, would in no way embarrass the Government; rather would- it advance the Government’s plans. Other honorable members have referred to the fact that before the war there was a shortage of housing. 9

Mr Fuller:

– The housing problem was acute when the Opposition parties were in power, but they did nothing.

Mr ANTHONY:

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– I know Adelaide better than does the Minister, but I cannot recall any such locality. I tell the Minister that the failure of the Bruce-Page Government to put its housing scheme into effect was due to the economic condition of the country.

Mr Conelan:

– And that was due to the deflationary policy of the Government.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– That is not so. Just as we were emerging from the depression the war started, and the whole of the man-power and material resources of the country had to be applied to the defeat of the enemy. Naturally, during the war, a shortage of housing has occurred. In the first place, normal repairs to houses became impossible and, in the second place, the building of new houses was prohibited. The next development to which I shall refer in this short historical study occurred -when the protagonists of the “ new order “ of which we have heard so much began to declare that after the war we should enter upon a period of felicity such as the world had never known. Our civilization would blossom as the rose, and everybody would have homes and would receive more money in wages than they could possibly spend. In short, the millenium was to arrive over night. Now we have come to the point of the introduction of this measure, one purpose of which is to empower the Commonwealth Bank to lend money for home building, and the declaration of tha Minister that money should be made available without interest for this purpose.

My constituency is partly metropolitan and partly rural, and I, therefore, regard this subject in a somewhat different light from that in which most other honorable members see it. In every housing scheme of which I have any knowledge, and they have included State housing projects and the War Service Homes Commission’s activities, after the last war, the tendency has been to con centrate on the building of homes in metropolitan areas, the reason being that homes constructed in such localities are regarded as providing better security than homes built in country districts. I point out, however, that any new home-building scheme which is to achieve real success must provide for decentralization. Hitherto homebuilding authorities have considered that homes built in country districts involve greater risks than homes built in metropolitan areas, but undoubtedly the time has come when decentralization of home construction must be applied, just as the time has come for the decentralization of industry. We have reached the stage in our civilization when our metropolitan areas have become almost a cancerous growth. The countryside is being denuded, of population, partly because of the centralization of industries, and partly because of the additional amenities that are available in metropolitan areas. The metropolitan areas of Melbourne and Sydney have become hopelessly overgrown in relation, to the total population of flip respective States, and the population in the metropolitan area of Adelaide - our most noticeable example of lack of balance in population - is out of all proportion to the relatively meagre resources of that State. This situation must undoubtedly be altered. More attention must be given to the building of homes, and the provision of water and electricity in country districts.

En the statement which the Minister for Home Security (Mr. Lazzarini) ha? just made with so much passion, he ha? revealed that sooner or later the Labour party, which has been courting Douglas credit at one period, and at another disavowing its courtship, will have to face the issues involved. The Minister hasgone so far as to advocate the principleof interest-free money for home building. We all, of course, are aware that the Minister for Transport (Mr. Ward) hasmade a public statement against the continued payment of interest on publicdebts. I shall not refer at any great length to that matter for no doubt you.. Mr. Chairman, would call me to order.: but it would be interesting if we could” see the intermediary links, which at present are invisible, between that policy and the proposal of the Minister for Home Security for the issue of interestfree money for home building.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- We have just heard a most astonishing speech from the Minister for Home Security (Mr. Lazzarini), in which he has advocated the building of homes by the issue of interest-free credit.

Mr Lazzarini:

– What rate of interest does the honorable member for Balaclava consider should be applied to money used for home-building?

Mr WHITE:

– The Minister has not denied my statement that he has advocated the application of the Douglas credit system.

Mr Lazzarini:

– I have done nothing of the kind.

Mr WHITE:

– If the Minister is favorable to the adoption of this policy for home building, why would he not

– The Government responsible for that small vote has imposed on the people of Australia higher- rates of tax than are imposed on any other country. It dissipated £7,500,000 in the attempt to produce tanks, yet not one tank built in this country has gone into action. With that money, 7,500 homes could have been built. The Government also established an aluminium factory near Wangaratta, but it has never been operated. An alcohol distillery was erected, at a cost of £3,000,000. I asked last week about the manufacture of Webley revolvers, which are worth approximately £7 each. The expenditure incurred amounts to £300,000, but only a few hundred revolvers have been pro duced. Apparently, the choice lies between a home and an unfinished revolver. Those who want homes will pay interest on them if they can secure them. The honorable member for Boothby (Mr. Sheehy), who made a reasonable speech, claimed that housing is not an activity of the Commonwealth Government. It definitely is, because the Commonwealth is empowered by statute to provide war service homes. During this war, 31 war service homes have been built, and another 37 have been started. Recently, I read a letter which I had received from a man who had circularized all estate agents, inquiring whether they knew of a caravan or a tram-car in which he could live. He has written to me further, stating -

I am secretary of tin; Ex-Servicemen’s Housing Protest Club in Melbourne. We have had a street march of ex-servicemen, and a deputation to the Premier on housing tn 1943-44, the vote for war service homes was only £28,000, of which £25,000 was expended. Is the Government sincere when it makes such a microscopic allocation for housing?

Mr FROST:

– My political record will compare favorably with that of any one else, but that is more than I can say for the honorable gentleman. The honorable member for New England (Mr.

Abbott) said that he could get a refrigerator for £12. Those are the sort of refrigerators which he believes are good enough for workers and returned soldiers.

Mr Abbott:

– They will be selling at that price after the war.

Mr FROST:

– We have tried to arrange for the supply of such standard equipment as refrigerators, electric ranges, and hot water services for war service homes.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Mulcahy:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I do not think there is anything about refrigerators in the bill.

Mr FROST:

– This bill will enable the Government to provide money for the construction of homes. In 1936-37, although labour and materials were plentiful enough, there was no money, and few homes were built. Now we are taking steps to provide the money, and when labour and material become available we shall push on with our housing programme. Of course, honorable members opposite do not want us to do that. They want houses to be scarce so that their friends who own house property can obtain high rents. If they were sincere in their advocacy of cheap homes for the the people, they would support the Government’s proposals.

Mr HARRISON:
Wentworth

– It is always refreshing to hear a speech from the Minister for Repatriation and Minister in charge of War Service Homes (Mr. Frost) because, when he has finished, I invariably find that I am able to correct a number of mistakes he has made in regard to matters affecting his own department. It is well known that the War Service Homes Commission is the greatest scandal of modern times. It has 6,000 applications in hand from returned soldiers for homes, and the Government has done nothing about them. It is well to remind the Minister that, in answer to a question asked by the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White), he admitted that 21,412 war service homes had been erected up to 1938. He made a great point of the fact that only a few war service homes were erected from 1936 onwards, but the fact is that by that time the department had satisfied the demand for homes. He said that in 1940 only two war service homes had been built, but he did not point out that, in that year, no returned soldiers from this war desired war service homes. In an attempt to make political capital out of the situation, the Minister has placed an entirely wrong interpretation on the figures. I can understand such behaviour from a rank and file supporter of the Government, but I did not expect it from a Minister. The Minister has admitted that only 31 houses have been built by his department since his Government has been in office. I recognize that, for security reasons it is not possible to disclose the number of servicemen who have been discharged, but I should say that it would be between 50,000 and 100,000. I have no doubt that the 6,000 applications already received for war service homes are a mere fraction of the number which will be received later, and yet the Minister has to admit that only 31 houses have so far been provided for returned servicemen. The actual figures are: New South Wales, 14; Victoria, 3; Queensland, 4; South Australia, 4; Western Australia, 3; and Tasmania, 3. What sort of a record is that for a Minister who dares to cast reflections on governments which were responsible for the building of more than 21,000 war service homes? Although the Minister cannot find money for the erection of war service homes, he has been able to find tens of thousands of pounds for the erection of headquarters for the Repatriation Department in every capital city in Australia. The Minister for Post:war Reconstruction can issue a permit for the expenditure of £700 for repairs to the headquarters of the Communist party- in Sydney, but would not permit an expenditure of £400 to allow a returned soldier to build a home. Those are the facts of the housing problem. The Minister for Post-war Reconstruction (Mr. Dedman), who is responsible for issuing building permits, in answer to a question upon notice, acknowledged that he had granted only 13,000 of 29,600 applications for permits. All honorable members have had bitter experiences in dealing with the Directorate of War

Organization of Industry. Permits are never granted in the terms of the applications. People who want four rooms are told that only three will be allowed and. that additions may be made later. Men who, in their own time, after working hours, when they should be free to do as they like, want to build are forced to cost their labour so that it shall be added to the total cost. The Minister assisting the Treasurer has given an indication of what will happen when this bill is passed. He prates about interestfree money. The interest-free money will be an uncurbed issue of bank notes at the behest of the Labour caucus. I do not care how many blue prints are in the pigeon-holes or what plans the longhaired crystal-gazers are making in order to cope with the housing problem. The honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) recently gave some interesting figures showing the small numbers of men employed in the tile, brick and timber industries now, as compared with before the war. The first practical contribution to the solution of this problem will be the return to the key industries that supply building materials of the men needed to build up stocks against the time when this or some other government shall decide to allow home-building to proceed. The platitudes in this clause will contribute nothing to the solution of the problem.

Mr CHAMBERS:
Adelaide

.- The exaggerations and inaccuracies of the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison) cap all the wild statements made about this matter by honorable gentlemen opposite. The honorable member referred to war service homes. I remind him that the antiLabour Government that reigned after the last war provided war service homes which are the most jerry-built houses ever erected in Australia.

Mr McDonald:

– Rot!

Mr CHAMBERS:

– They are. The evidence is the houses themselves. A similar government was responsible for the eviction of thousands of returned soldiers from the very homes that had been built for them. Honorable members opposite have reflected on the administration of the Minister in charge of War

Service Homes (Mr. Frost). I answer them by citing the fact that throughout Australia he has provided hospitals for the wounded and sick of this war. Honorable members opposite have offered no solution of the ‘housing problem. All they have done is to continue the bickering and propaganda that has characterised their speeches throughout this debate. The provisions in this clause are a real attempt to solve the problem, because advances will be made to members of the Australian community to enable them to build homes. The honorable member for Wentworth tried to couple the Communist party with the Labour party by referring to a permit to expend money on Communist headquarters in Sydney, but in South Australia the Communist party headquarters are in premises owned by probably the most conservative family in the State, one member of which is a tory member of the Legislative Council. So, in South Australia, at least, if the Communist party is linked with any other political party, it is linked with the Liberal party.

Mr. L. Wright, a man qualified to speak on the matter of housing, is reported in the South Australian press as having said -

From 1912 to 1922 the marriage rate mutually of South .Australia was 2,400 couples mid the house-building average 1,020, which meant that about one-third of those couples did not wish .to build. For the next decade, marriages averaged 2,900 annually, nearly 2,000 houses being built yearly. During ISIU2-42, the marriage average jumped to 4,700 « year, the average of houses built being only 1,000. By 1939, there were 5,000 homes in tho metropolitan area not fi:t for human habitation.

A Labour government was not in power then. There was no shortage of labour and material. Yet honorable gentlemen apposite have the audacity to criticize this Government for the housing shortage when it is concentrating on meeting the greatest crisis that this country has ever encountered. Mr. Wright continued - lt was not because of war-time but an accumulated shortage nf homes that made the ,total 25,000.

With the aid of this Government, the people will ‘be able to house themselves.

We are making every effort to ensure that men and materials shall be released when not required for war purposes, in order that people who through no fault of their own are homeless or inadequately housed shall have their needs met.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:
Wide Bay

– The Minister for Repatriation (Mr. Frost), in a confused speech, stated that the only obstacle to the erection of homes was the lack of labour and materials.

Mr Lazzarini:

– That is true.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– lt is not true. Some people in my electorate have the necessary materials and are prepared to erect their own homes, but under the regulations, they are debarred from doing so. I shall cite an instance to prove my contention. This week, a young man wrote to me stating that he had built for himself a shack, the cost of which slighly exceeded the maximum of £25 prescribed in the regulations. Although this structure had been erected in the country, a government inspector discovered it, and now the young man is being taken to task for having committed a breach of the regulations. He informed me that he had collected the necessary materials over a period, of two years, during which he had built the shack in his spare time. So the Government does harass a person when he endeavours to provide accommodation for himself.

The Government lacks resolution in dealing with the housing problems. For example, the Repatriation Department has first priority “in acquiring building materials and securing labour, but for more than twelve months the Minister has been making excuses for the delay in completing the sanatorium at Kenmore for servicemen suffering from tuberculosis. These unfortunate individuals are still accommodated in a general repatriation hospital, which lacks the facilities required for their treatment and comfort.

The acute housing shortage is one of the most serious disabilities suffered by the Australian people. Of course, the same disability is suffered in other countries, but their governments are making sirenuous endeavours to solve the problem.

The Commonwealth Government does not appear to have the will to do so. Our timber mills are working to full capacity, and the timber is going somewhere, but not into the construction of homes. Since the outbreak of war, great buildings have been erected for military purposes, and some of them are now empty. The timber which was used in their construction could now be utilized for the erection of thousands of homes, if the Government intended to provide reasonable comfort for people who are now suffering severe privations. By a slow process, men will be released from the services to engage in the building and other industries. If they are demobilized as slowly as were the men who were released to assist primary producers, Heaven knows when the building industry will obtain the labour that it so urgently requires! Before the trees have been felled and taken to the mills, and the wood has been properly seasoned, a year will have passed, and the building programme will not have been accelerated. Members of the Opposition require more than the assurance given by the Minister for Repatriation. He did not encourage us to believe that the housing problem would be solved within a reasonable time, but arrogantly dismissed any charge that he was responsible for the present indolent policy. I am gratified to see that the bill provides for housing loans, and hope that the interest rate on soldiers’ homes will not exceed 2 per cent.

Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley

.- This part is one of the most valuable portions of the bill. The housing problem which now confronts the Government would face any other government in office in the Commonwealth at this period. It i3 all very well for honorable members to ask, “ Why does not the Government build houses for the people? “ The fact is that we cannot make bricks withoutstraw, and we cannot build houses unless we have the necessary man-power and materials. Frankly, we have to take a practical view of the matter. All members including those of the Opposition, know that when Australia was threatened with invasion, a tremendous strain was placed upon man-power and resources in the building industry. We were committed to the expenditure of tens of millions of pounds for the purpose of erecting buildings and installations in order to provide facilities and accommodation for Australian troops in the north, and for American troops who came to this country. Had we employed the man-power and materials in a selfish manner to build houses for the accommodation of our own people, Australia might long since have been invaded.

– By a process of elimination, I shall discover what honorable members opposite have been talking about all day. The sub-clause continues - or for the discharge of mortgages on homes.

Does any honorable member object to that? Strong objection may be raised by certain private banks and money lenders to that sub-clause, because it will be competent for the Commonwealth Bank, under this provision, to pay off mortgages or advance money against mortgages, and reduce the rate of interest. Honorable members opposite should not forget that tens of thousands of workers in Australia. are paying interest rates as high as 7 per cent, on loans on homes which they are purchasing. Under this clause, the Commonwealth Bank will be able to take over those mortgages at a much lower rate of interest. Does any one, other than money lenders and private banks which are profiting by this usury, object to that provision? Subclause 2 reads’ -

In making such loans, the Bank shall give preference to loans for the erection of homes and for the purchase of newly-erected homes.

– These returned soldiers were the subjects of ejectment orders issued by the courts of New South Wales. The purpose of this bill is to ensure that the servicemen who will return to civil life after this war shall be able to obtain homes under conditions which will render quite unnecessary the issue of ejectment orders. The intention of this Government is to make war service homes available under conditions which will render it possible for the men ultimately to own their homes. Under the administration of previous governments many returned men paid to the War Service Homes Commission amounts much in excess of their original indebtedness, but they still owe more than they have paid. I have had the opportunity recently to inspect, in the office of the Deputy Commissioner of War Service Homes in Sydney, the plans of war service homes which it is proposed to build, and I have also obtained information of estimated costs. Houses which, prior to the war, could be built for £900, cost, to-day, £500 or £600 extra. No ex-serviceman on the basic wage could afford to pay such a high price. The department has wisely decided not to construct homes for ex-servicemen except at a reasonable cost. Nothing should be done until the requisite building materials are available in sufficient quantity to enable operations to proceed uninterruptedly. I read in the daily press recently of negotiations with the Government of Russia for the supply of building timber to this country. A large quantity of the building timber that is available in Europe and Russia will be used for the construction of buildings to replace those demolished during the war. The members of the Cabinet who held office in 1933, 1934, and 1935 were responsible for the eviction of a large number of servicemen, and should be the last to take about evictions by the present Government. When other honorable members who sit on this side, and I, were in Opposition, and appealed to the Government to save those men and their families from eviction, the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) did not intervene on their behalf. I hope that this will he the last occasion on which honorable members opposite will raise this subject.

Question put -

That the words proposed to be inserted (Mr. Abbott’s amendment), be so inserted.

The committee divided. (The Chairman - Mr. W. J. F.

RIORDAN.)

AYES: 18

NOES: 32

Majority . . . . 14

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment (by Mr. Fadden) put -

That, after sub-clause (1.), the following new sub-clause be inserted: - “ (1a) For the purposes of this Part, there shall be a Housing Loans Department of the Bank which shall be provided with separate management and with the necessary liaison to ensure a co-ordinated policy with the other Departments of the Bank.”

The committee divided. (The Chairman- Mr. W. J. F.

RIORDAN.)

AYES: 17

NOES: 32

Majority . . . . 15

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 108 to 114 agreed to.

Clause 115-

The amount of a loan under this Division shall not exceed eighty-five per centum of the value (as determined by the Bank) of the estate or interest in land on which the loan is secured, or One thousand two hundred and fifty pounds, whichever is the less.

Sir EARLE PAGE:
Cowper

.- I move -

That the word “eighty-five” be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word “ ninety “.

I propose to move later that the words “ two hundred and fifty pounds “ be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ eight hundred “. The original Commonwealth Housing Act provided for a maximum advance of £1,800, and building costs are substantially higher now than they were then. It may be said that the average cost of building allotments in the cities is between £5 and £6 a foot, so that the cost of an allotment with a 60 ft. frontage would be between £300 and £360. If this amount is subtracted from the advance of £1,250, about £900 is left with which to erect the building, and only a very small house can be erected for that amount now. I am anxious that families in Australia shall tend to increase. If that is to occur, it will be necessary to build houses with enough bedrooms to provide for the children as they come along. This scheme should provide for persons with incomes between £400 and £600, people who have commitments for which those on low incomes are not responsible. Every one who has spoken during this debate has emphasized the need for reducing housing costs. Some have said that dwellings should be built with interest-free money and fitted with all modern conveniences. During the last few months I have seen many of the tenders sent in to the Directorate of War Organization of Industry, and it is the exception for a tender for a dwelling house to be less than £1,000, even for a floor space of only 900 square feet. When space for a 7 ft. verandah is taken off 900 square feet, there is not much left for bedroom, living-room, &e. There is one good point in this bill, namely, that there is no income qualification as is provided in some of the State housing acts. Every one, no matter what his income, may avail himself of the provisions of this measure.

Mr LAZZARINI:
Minister for Home Security and Minister for Works · Werriwa · ALP

– ‘Careful consideration was given by Cabinet to the point raised by the right honorable member. It is expected that, to begin with, at any rate, the homes built under this provision will be for those in the lower income groups, and the Government believes that the amount fixed in this clause will be sufficient. I point out that although loans up to only 85 par cent, of the value of asset may be made to individuals, loans to the value of 90per cent, may be made to societies.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- The amendment of the right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page) is a very reasonable one. The Government must be aware that costs of labour and materials! have increased greatly. The present limits imposed in the bill will have the effect of limiting the activities of this department of the bank. Statistics prepared by the Master Builders Association show that a timber frame dwelling which cost £730 in 1934 would cost £1,035 in 1944. A brick dwelling which cost £960 in 1934 would now cost £1,365, an increase of 40 per cent. The cost of building materials has increased by 77.98 per cent. We must, accept the fact that workers’ are now receiving higher wages, and, in addition, have the advantage of child endowment and other beneficent provisions of the kind. If necessary, the Government should postpone consideration of this clause until it has had time to give it more thought. - When the price of the building allotment is taken into consideration, it will be found that a very small amount will be left with which to erect a dwelling. The conference of the Australasian Council of Trade Unions in Sydney is talking of the need for a new basic wage. There is nothing static about the basic wage. I do not say whether it should be higher or lower, but I agree that it must be adjusted to meet existing circumstances. We cannot escape the fact that the costs of materials and labour together have increased by 40 per cent.

Mr RANKIN:
Bendigo

.- I support the amendment, because I believe that the Government would take into consideration the tremendous increase of building costs which has taken place during recent years. We must also remember that local authorities in the capital cities have fixed building standards to .which new buildings must conform. They will not permit the erection of a building which may be regarded as a slum dwelling a few years hence. They specify that the building must have so much floor space, that it must cost so much, and must be of a certain type, according to the locality in which it is erected. Our aim should be to allow a man to build a house to suit the needs of his family, and cost should not be the determining factor. I believe that it would be reasonable to fix the maximum amount of the advance at £1,800.

Mr Lazzarini:

– We shall have a look at that proposal.

Mr FADDEN:
Darling DownsLeader of the Australian Country party

– I support the amendment of the right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page). If it was right to fix a maximum advance of £1,S00 in 1927, the maximum now should certainly be .more than £1,250, having regard to the increase of costs. The State Advances Corporation of Queensland has compiled figures which show that a standard, up-to-date worker’s home which cost £558 in 1927-28, when the cost index was 101, would cost £550 in 1938-39, when the relative cost index was 100. The latest available figures show that the cost would be £770, with an index figure of 140. There has been an increase of £220 in the cost of building a worker’s home, and an increase of 40 per cent. in the index figure. That factor should be taken into consideration in fixing the maximum amount that may be borrowed under this clause. The Commonwealth Housing Act provides -

That the maximum amount which may be lent by the Authority to any person shall be One thousand eight hundred pounds, and shall be ninety per centum of the valuation made, by or on behalf of the Authority, of the property in respect of which the loan is made.

That provision is wise. The Government should not confine its consideration to people in the lower ranges of income. A housing scheme emanating from the National Parliament should be truly national. Men earning fixed incomes of,say, £1,000 have fixed responsibilities, and they should not be excluded. I support both the 90 per cent. advance and the £1,800 limit proposed by the right honorable member for Cowper.

Question put -

That the word proposed to be left out (Sir Earle Page’s amendment) stand part of the clause.

The committee divided. (The Chairman - Mr. W. J. F. RIORDAN.)

AYES: 32

NOES: 17

Majority . . . . 15

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment negatived.

Sir EARLE PAGE:
Cowper

.- I move -

That the words “ two hundred and fifty “ be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ eight hundred “.

I do not wish to amplify my previous statements, except to say that during this war no one in the community has been hit more heavily by rising prices than has the family man with an income of from £400 to £800 a year.

Dame ENID LYONS:
Darwin

– I support the amendment. The effect of the limitation ofthis clause will be to limit the size of families or the comforts that families of more than two may have in their homes. The Government has said that due consideration was given to this proposition and that it was decided that it should apply only to people on lower incomes, but I suggest that if the Commonwealth Bank is to give the service that it is supposed to give, it will extend its benefits to all sections of the community. If it is objected that those on lower incomes cannot afford to pay as much as £1,800 for a house, I suggest to the Government that men prepared to assume the responsibility of parenthood to a greater degree than others are endowed with sufficient sense of duty to assume greater financial burdens. As their families grow the parents generally receive some help from them. Above all the wife needs more of the home comforts that can be provided by a better type of building than do other women. If the Government condemns men who must have space to accommodate their families to poor dwellings, it will do a disservice to those prepared to assume the responsibilities of parenthood. So I ask the Government to reconsider its decision in the interests of those who in the future will be Australia’s greatest bulwark.

Question put -

That the words proposed to be left out (Sir Earle Page’s amendment) stand part of the clause.

The committee divided. (The Chairman- Mr. W. J. F. RIORDAN.)

AYES: 32

NOES: 16

Majority . . . . 16

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 116-

A mortgage given as security for repayment of a loan under this Division shall provide for the payment of monthly or, at the option of the Bank, quarterly, instalments of principal and interest and for the payment, at the end of the period of the loan, of the balance (if any) then outstanding.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– I move -

That after the word “ quarterly “ the following words be inserted : - “ or annual “.

Some primary producers derive their annual incomefrom a single crop. For example, a wheat-grower harvests his crop, and a pastoralist receives payment for his wool-clip only once a year. Consequently, it is desirable that they should be permitted to make only one payment annually in the reduction of their loans. The clause provides that instalments of principal and interest shall be paid monthly ox, at the option of the bank, quarterly. The amendment will permit the bank, where it considers the circumstances warrant, to allow reductions of the principal and the payment of interest by annual instalments.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

Sir Earle Page:

– I rise to order. The matter of evictions surely arises when a mortgage is given as security for the repayment of a loan for the purchase of a home. If the terms of the mortgage are not complied with, the borrower may be evicted from the premises.

The CHAIRMAN:

– This clause deals with loans repayable by periodical instalments, and the matter raised by the honorable member for Balaclava and the honorable member for Moreton has nothing to do with this provision.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Barker · ALP

– Under this clause, honorable members should be permitted to discuss the penalties and remedies that may be applied by the bank if loans repayable by periodical instalments are not met when they fall due. Therefore, I cannot understand why we are not permitted to discuss evictions. So long as the loans are repaid by instalments in accordance with the contracts, no difficulty will arise. The trouble occurs in all commercial undertakings when a party to a contract is not able to fulfil the terms. The Commonwealth Bank will be able to apply specific remedies when the contracts are not complied with in the spirit and the letter. If the terms of a contract are not fulfilled, one of the remedies of which the bank may avail itself will, possibly, be the eviction of the purchaser. Does the Minister (Mr. Lazzarini) contend that, in the event of the non-payment of instalments, the purchaser will not be evicted? Unless the Minister is prepared to place such a guarantee in the bill, any declaration that he may make to that effect will notbe worth the breath that he exhales in giving the assurance. That is the position. When this clause becomes law its effect will be determined, not by the assurances of the Minister in this chamber but by the interpretation that the court places on it.

In the absence of such an assurance, the matter of eviction as a remedy for the failure of the purchaser to fulfil the terms of the contract automatically arises. And any question of evictions from homes financed by the Commonwealth Bank must automatically come within the scope of this discussion. The honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White), who considered that he had been misrepre sented earlier, was debarred by the Chairman’s ruling from correcting, at this stage, any wrong impression that may have been created in the minds of honorable members. In my opinion, he should be entitled to discuss the manner in which evictions have been effected in the past, in order to erect barriers, if possible, to prevent a recurrence of them in the future.

Sitting suspended from 6 to 8 p.m.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– I ask, Mr. Chairman, whether I shall be in order in moving an amendment to provide that in the event of default in the payment of instalments of interest and principal no eviction order may be issued except by the approval of the Minister in charge of War Service Homes?

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Riordan).An amendment by the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) is already before the committee.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– Then I take it that I may move my amendment at a later stage.

Progress reported..

Declaration of Urgency.

Mr CHIFLEY:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

.- I declare that the Commonwealth Bank Bill 1945 is an urgent bill.

Question put -

That the bill be considered an urgent bill.

The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. J. S. Rosevear.)

AYES: 30

NOES: 14

Majority . . . . 16

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Allotment of Time.

Motion (by Mr. Chifley) proposed -

That the time allotted in connexion with the bill be as follows: -

For the remainder of the committee stage, until 3.15 p.m. to-morrow.

For the remaining stages, until 3.30 p.m. to-morrow.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Barker · ALP

– We commenced our proceedings to-day by tendering to our friend the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Chifley) the most hearty congratulations upon his elevation to the Privy Council, and he has repaid us by introducing the “ guillotine “ immediately after dinner. I did not believe that the right honorable gentleman would be guilty of such conduct. But we have to take things as we find them. We realize that he has a docile and obedient majority, every member of which will vote for his motion.

The bill is divided into fourteen parts. Without the application of the “ guillotine “, we have reached Part XI., which consists of three divisions, two of which have been completed. Therefore, although the progress so far may appear to have been slow, it has not been so slow as to justify the application of the “ guillotine “ at this stage. The debate up to now would have been curtailed considerably could we have obtained satisfactory explanations from the Minister in charge of the bill in committee. Part XII. of the bill deals with the Commonwealth Savings Bank. With great respect, I contend that no Commonwealth institution touches the general body of the community more closely and intimately than does the Commonwealth Savings Bank, unless it be the PostmasterGeneral’s Department, because its branches are spread over the whole of the continent, and practically every person is in some degree a shareholder in it. Consequently, there is every justification for the Opposition, should it so desire - I do not say that it would - to occupy the House for a whole day in dealing with the Government’s proposals in relation to the Savings Bank. In addition, there are proposals in relation to the service of the Commonwealth Bank. We could devote quite a lot of time to the consideration of the future of those who will belong to that service, which will be greatly augmented by the operation of those parts of the bill to which the committee already has assented.

Mr Calwell:

– It never could be augmented enough.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– The honorable gentleman is giving information - for the first time. The last part has the comprehensive title “ Miscellaneous which, like ‘ the blessed word “ Mesopotamia “, covers a lot of things and could give rise to a very important debate. The time allotted by the Government is entirely insufficient. I repeat that the bill would have been passed before now could we have obtained the explanations to which, as Opposition members, we are entitled.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member is transgressing my ruling.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– We are working under the tutelage of one of the great masters of English in this chamber, whose chief, explanation is: “The clause means what it says “. Whilst that may be brief, concise, and understandable, it certainly is not conducive to the speedy passage of legislation through a House constituted as, unfortunately, this House has been since the 21st August, 1943, Therefore, it is all the more necessary that the Government should be fairly generous towards the Opposition. Government supporters occupy their share of the time devoted to debate, except when they are in the unhappy position of not being able to say what they want to say. I am afraid that many of my friends opposite find themselves in that unfortunate position.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

– I can understand the reason for the lightheartedness and: indifference of honorable members opposite, because we have not seen much of them during the committee stage of the bill. In fact, I seriously question whether ten of them have taken the trouble to read the bill since it was introduced. This is a very large piece of, legislation. In ordinary circumstances, at least seven of its parts would each constitute a bill. We dealt yesterday with the Industrial Finance Department.

Mr. SPEAKER.Order ! The honorahle member cannot deal with what is past. The only question before the Chair is, whether the time allotted for the remaining clauses of the bill’ is sufficient.

Mr HOLT:

-I merely point out that parts have been introduced each of which, normally, would constitute a separate measure. Therefore, I claim that the Government cannot adopt the attitude that the Opposition has been obstructive. We have endeavoured, seriously and conscientiously, to analyse the clauses as they have come before us. I challenge the Government to point to any portion of the bill, the passage of which has been delayed unreasonably.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member is challenging not only the Government hut also my ruling.

Mr HOLT:

– This measure differs from others that have preceded it, inasmuch as the Government may do all that it contemplates doing under the authority conferred by the remaining clauses, by exercising the powers conferred on it by National Security Regulations. That has been its course of action ever since it has been in office. There is no constitutional bar to its continued use of those powers until a considerable time after the war with Japan has terminated. Therefore, it cannot be argued that great urgency justifies the application of the “ guillotine “. The object of adopting that course is merely to stifle justifiable, constructive, and analytical consideration by members of the Opposition, who have given a great deal more thought to the matter than has been given by honorable members who support the curtailment of debate.

Question put -

That the motion(vide page 3104) be agreed to.

The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. j. S. Rosevear.)

AYES: 31

NOES: 18

Majority . . 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

In committee: Consideration resumed (vide page 3103).

Amendment negatived.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- I wish to move -

That the following new sub-clause be added : - “ (2.) In the event of default in payment of any such instalment of Interest and principal a borrower shall not be evicted from his premises except on the approval of the Minister, and in no case by any method adopted at any time by the War Service Homes Commission.”

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 11S to 125 agreed to.

Clause 126- .

The Savings Bank shall be managed by the Governor.

Mr MENZIES:
Leader of the Opposition · Kooyong

– I move -

That the words ‘* the Governor “ be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following words: - “a Commission composed of a Chief Commissioner and two other Commissioners “.

I am not going to debate this matter, because to do so would he merely to repeat the arguments that I have already put. I believe that the Savings Bank, like the Commonwealth Bank itself, should be under the control of a board, because, for the reasons that I have stated at some length, I believe in the corporate responsibility of” a board. Whatever strength that argument possessed in relation to the Commonwealth Bank, it possesses more in relation to the Savings Bank. The Savings Bank is an institution in which, from the point of view of the depositor, utter safety is of the first importance. For those reasons I believe that there should be a board of commissioners. It is quite true that in the existing act there is provision for a board of commissioners. In section 58 provision is made that until the appointment of the commission, the Savings Bank shall be managed by the board of the Commonwealth Bank. The board of the Commonwealth Bank has conducted the Savings Bank, but, on the taking of certain steps under that section, a special board of commissioners for the Savings Bank would be set up. To say any more would be merely to repeat myself, and I have no desire to do that, because other matters need to be discussed before the consideration of this bill in committee is completed. But, in brief, my submission to the committee is that we should have a board of commissioners to control the Savings Bank. If that view is acceptable, my amendment will be carried. I rather suspect that, it will not. But if it were, it would be necessary to follow it by consequential provisions such as those which appear in the existing act.

Mr LAZZARINI:
Minister for Home Security and Minister foiWorks · Werriwa · ALP

– Like the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies), I have no intention of repeating what the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) and I said in our secondreading speeches, when outlining the policy of the Government regarding this matter. On the grounds put forward at that stage, the Government cannot accept the amendment.

Mr FADDEN:
Leader of the Australian Country party · Darling Downs

.’ - I support the observations made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies). The Original act provided that the Savings Bank should be managed by a commissioner composed of a chief commissioner and two other commissioners. That provision has never been given effect, because the general administration, management and control of the Commonwealth Bank was undertaken by a properly constituted board. The bill has abolished that board. Having regard to the fact that the activities of the Commonwealth Bank have been so widened by this legislation, some form of independent control must be preserved over a savings bank. It is custodian or trustee of the savings of hundreds of thousands of persons in the low income groups, who are prudent enough to bank as much of their weekly earnings as they can in order to provide for the future. They are endeavouring to make themselves independent of lie old-age pension and social services generally. Their thrift should be encouraged, and their savings should be safeguarded by prudent trusteeship.

The bill provides that the Commonwealth Bank shall extend its activities, quite apart from its original function as a central bank, for the purposes of the General Banking Division, the Rural Credits Department, the Mortgage Bank Department, the Industrial Finance Dcpartment, and housing loans. The funds of those departments will be supplemented from the Savings Bank. In fact, no limit will be placed upon the use of the funds of the Savings Bank. The Mortgage Bank Department and the Industrial Finance Department, for example, may avail themselves without limit of the funds of the Savings Bank. That being so, honorable members should ensure that the funds of the Savings Bank shall be adequately safeguarded by providing for a prudent trusteeship by a commission, such as I have described. That provision was re-enacted in 1924 and 1943.

Mr Lazzarini:

– But it was never given effect.

Mr FADDEN:

– The occasion to utilize it did not arise, because .of the existence of the Commonwealth Bank Board, which was independent of political control by the Treasurer, caucus, and the Australasian Council of Trade Unions. Now, the Government has removed that independent control by placing the administration of the extended activities of the Commonwealth

Bank under the Governor. When the bank is placed under political control, the savings of the small wage-earners must be safeguarded. They would not be prepared to deposit their money in a politically controlled institution. The Parliament must honour its obligations to hundreds of thousands of small depositors by placing the Savings Bank under the control of an independent commission.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 127 to 133 agreed to.

Clause 134-

The net profits of the Savings Bank in each year shall be dealt with as follows: -

one-half shall be placed to the credit of a fund to be called the Savings Bank Reserve Fund; and

one-half shall be paid into the National Debt Sinking Fund.

Mr ADERMANN:
Maranoa

.- I move -

That the following new sub-clause be added: - (2.) The Savings Bank Reserve Fund shall be available for the payment of any liabilities of the Savings Bank “.

– That is beside the point. The reserves will be represented by assets; they will be shown in the balance-sheet; and they will be available to meet the obligations of the bank to depositors and others.

Mr ADERMANN:
Maranoa

– If the Grown Law authorities have expressed the view that the reserves would be available, there does not seem to be much difference of opinion between us, but we all know that on occasions the opinion of the Crown .Law authorities has proved to be unsound.. For that reason I ask the Minister to accept the amendment and thus make assurance doubly sure.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 135 to 151 agreed, to.

Clause 152 - (l.) The Bank shall appoint such officers as are necessary for the efficient conduct of the business of the Bank.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- This clause introduces the part of the bill that relates to examinations for and appointments to the Commonwealth Bank service. I desire to know whether all service personnel will be considered in the making of those appointments. The policy of the Government provides for a big expansion of the Common wealth Bank service, and the men and women who at present are absent on national service should be considered in the making of the many appointments that will be necessary in the process of that expansion. I know that many former bank employees who are now members .of air crew and ground staff of the Royal Australian Air Force, aged between IS and 32 years, will be looking for positions in banks after the war. Will the Minister for Home Security give me an assurance that they will be considered under these provisions?

Mr LAZZARINI:
Minister for Home Security and Minister for. Works · Werriwa · ALP

– I give the honorable member an assurance that all service personnel, especially former bank employees, will be considered in the making of appointments. They all are covered by the provisions of the Re-establishment and Employment Bill.

Mr Archie Cameron:

– What about sub-clause 2 of clause 135 of that bill, which enables the Government to make any alteration it desires during the war without reference to the Parliament?

Mr HARRISON:
Wentworth

– The interjection of the honorable member for Banker (Mr. Archie Cameron) is pertinent.

Mr Menzies:

– And any alteration so made will continue to operate after the war.

Mr Lazzarini:

– That makes no difference to the assurance that I have given the honorable member for Balaclava.

Mr HARRISON:

– In my opinion the assurance is not worth anything, in view of the fact that the Government will have the power to alter the provisions qf the Re-establishment and Employment Bill without reference to the Parliament. It must be remembered that steps are now being taken to expand the operations of the Commonwealth Bank. Consequently, many new officers will be required. 1 am informed that out of 14,000 persons employed by the private banks more than 9,000 men and 1,300 women enlisted. The future of all these individuals will be jeopardized by the pas sage of this legislation. It is the declared policy of the Labour party to close the private banks. Their business may disappear slowly at first, but if honorable gentleman opposite have their way, it will disappear none the less surely. What is to be done for the employees who will thereby lose their positions? Side by side with its policy of strangling the private banks, the Government is applying a policy of extension of the Commonwealth Bank which must result in the opening of many new branches. Under the rationalization agreement between the private banks and the Government earlier in the war, 500 country branches of the private banks were closed. They are still closed and many of them are likely to remain closed permanently. That must be the result of the opening of new branches of the Commonwealth Bank in country towns. The Commonwealth Bank is engaging in a process of infiltration. When the 9,000 men and 1,300 women in the services who were formerlv employed by the private banks return from the war, they will find that the positions which many of them previously occupied no longer exist. In order to set the position out clearly, I direct the attention of honorable members to clause 37 of the bill-

The Bank may, with the approval of the Treasurer, enter into an arrangement with any other bank for the transfer to the Bank, upon such terms and conditions as are agreed upon between the Bank and that other bank, of the whole or any part of the assets, liabilities and business of that other bank.

Sub-clause 3 of clause .155 reads - (3.) Where the Bank enters into an arrangement under section thirty-seven of this Act, or tho Savings Bank enters into an arrangement under section one hundred and twenty-four of this Act, the Bank may appoint to the Service of the Bank officers of the body corporate or savings bank with which the arrangement is made although they have not passed a prescribed entrance examination.

It appears to me, therefore, that even if the Commonwealth Bank enters into an agreement with a private bank for the transfer of its business, the position of the private bank’s officers will be left in doubt. Such officers will probably have to submit to a prescribed examination before they can obtain an appointment with the Commonwealth Bank. There does not seem to be any specific provision for the transfer of the staffs of private banks which make agreements with the Commonwealth Bank. If the trading banks are slowly strangled, there will be no need for action in that regard. The same considerations will operate in connexion with the amalgamation of other savings banks with the Commonwealth Savings Bank, for which provision is made in clause 124. Honorable members opposite may claim that the Commonwealth Bank ultimately will absorb these men. Already, that bank has branches established in most country towns, and it is taking steps to establish branches in others. How is it ‘ likely that these men, many of whom formerly occupied key positions in trading banks, will be absorbed, seeing that most of the key positions in the Commonwealth Bank will be filled already? Even if some of them could be absorbed, the mere fact that they probably would not bo given the positions which they formerly occupied in the trading banks would destroy the whole of their incentive to increase their efficiency. They entered the service of a bank at an early age, and by promotion reached a high status. They have had specialized bank training. Now they are to be prejudiced and are not likely to have any incentive to improve themselves. Their specialized bank training will not have fitted them for employment in any other occupation. Realizing the position, the Bank Officers Association approached Ministers and government members for an assurance that consideration would be given to the men whom it represents, and that their rights would be protected. The knowledge of banking procedure possessed by these men has enabled them to assess the legal implications of the bill, and they are not satisfied that the right of reemployment is protected to any degree. I shall quote the assurances that were given by some honorable members opposite to the appeal that was made to them.

Mr Rosevear:

– The reading of that correspondence will constitute a distinct breach of confidence.

Mr HARRISON:

– These telegrams have been published in the official organ of the Bank Officers Association and are consequently public property.

Mr Rosevear:

– The honorable member proposes to read a private letter from an honorable member.

Mr HARRISON:

– The honorable gentleman is quibbling. I should not have read these communications had they not been published and thus become public property. Let us see how honorable members opposite will stand up to the assurances which they gave to the Bank Officers Association. This telegram was sent to all Commonwealth Ministers and Labour members of the House of Representatives^ -

Interstate conference of bank officers representing all associations appeals to you on heli alf of 20,000 members of bank officers’ unions including 8,000 servicemen to take steps to protect their interests when banking legislation is being considered.

Senator Aylett replied; lu reply to your telegram I am quite satisfied that the protection of the interests of bank officers will be safeguarded in any bank legislation by the present Government.

They are not being protected; the Bank Officers Association claims that they are to be sacrificed. The Minister for Munitions (Mr. Makin) replied -

Your representations behalf bank officers will receive full consideration when draft banking legislation is under consideration by government.

What consideration have these officers received? None whatever from honorable members opposite who pledged themselves to see that it would be given. The Minister for Transport (Mr. Ward) replied -

Received telegram redirected from Canberra concerning position of bank officers under proposed banking reform legislation. Have noted your comments and you may be assured that the Commonwealth Government is closely watching the position and will take whatever action is necessary to prevent any worker in the banking industry suffering any hardship as result the amended legislation.

– The honorable

ember for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison) did.

Mr Harrison:

– 1 said that it would strangle the banks.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– If it is found possible after the war for one bank in a country town to do what five banks were doing before, the clients of the banks will be justified in demanding a reduction of interest rates. High rates of interest have been justified by the private banks because of the overhead charges involved in maintaining the numerous branches which have been proved redundant during the war. The volume of money passing through the banks has never been greater than during the war. Therefore, if this business can be handled in country towns by one-fifth of the prewar number of branches, the reduced volume of business which may be expected after the war will not require a greater number of branches to attend to it.

Mr Adermann:

– Then why open a second butcher shop at Portland?

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– The honorable member seems to be unable to get his mind above butcher shops.

Mr White:

– I rise to a point of order. Have the remarks of the honorable member anything to do with the clause, which provides that the bank shall appoint such officers as are necessary for the conduct of business? The speech of the honorable member would be more appropriate on the motion for the second reading of the bill.

– I thought that I should have been able to say all that I wanted to say on my first approach to this clause, but the usual courtesy was not extended to me by no less a person than Mr. Speaker, who left the chair-

Your telegram Mr. Riordan absent from Brisbane will give every consideration request contained in your telegram.

You, Mr. Chairman, no doubt advised your secretary to -send that telegram. What consideration have you given to the members of the Bank Officers Association? The reply of the Minister for Information (Mr. Calwell), who claims always to have the interests of unionists and workers at heart, and is never tired of prating of what he has done for them, was as follows : -

I am ill receipt of your telegram of the 17th instant concerning the provisions of the proposed banking legislation and will give your representations earnest consideration.

That is another instance of lip service by the Minister for Information. On the 20th February, Mr. Card sent the following communication to all Labour members of the Senate and House of Representatives : -

It will be greatly appreciated if you will be kind enough to inform the members of my organization through me whether in your opinion the proposed banking legislation full details of which I understand have now been placed before caucus is likely to curtail the activities of trading banks to the extent that the employment of bank officers will be adversely affected. As bank officers are greatly perturbed an early reply will be appreciated. If your reply is likely to be delayed will you please state when your advice may be expected.

All that the bank officers wished to know was whether their positions would be adversely . affected. I emphasize that members of caucus had had the bill explained’ to them and should have known its effect on the bank officers. The Minister for Post-war Reconstruction (Mr. Dedman) exercised typical Scotch caution when he replied -

Reference your telegram even date. I do not feel it is appropriate for me as a Minister to express an opinion on effects of legislation sponsored by a colleague. Have therefore referred your telegram to Treasurer for reply to you direct.

Mr Fadden:

– Did he send the telegram marked “Collect”?

Mr HARRISON:

– The reply of the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. Scully) also was cautious. It was as follows: -

Your wire received only Treasurer or Prime Minister is competent to make statements on ‘banking legislation.

Mr Fadden:

– He “ passed the buck “.

Mr HARRISON:

– The honorable member for Martin (Mr. Daly) replied -

Regret not in position to advise likely effect of banking legislation on members of your organization.

Although the bill had been explained to members of caucus, the honorable member knew nothing about it and was unable to express an opinion. The VicePresident of the Executive Council (Mr. Beasley) said’ -

The effect of the legislation referred to in your statement can only be determined after its application.

In order to place beyond any reasonable, doubt the intentions of the Government regarding the employees of the private trading banks, the honorable gentleman added -

If it should be necessary, I will be pleased to render aid .to your members if they desire to transfer their employment.

Do honorable members require any further evidence as to the intentions of the Government towards the employees of the private trading banks? Of course, the effects of the legislation will be determined after its application ! These unfortunate men will be unemployed, and the Government, which is pledged to safeguard the welfare of trade unionists, is neglecting their interests. The honorable gentleman had the temerity to say -

I will he pleased to render aid to your members if they desire to transfer their employment.

That is precisely what it means; and the Vice-President of the Executive Council, who is also the Acting AttorneyGeneral, should know the meaning of words. I have here a pamphlet issued by the Australian Labour party in Victoria, and signed by D. L. MacNamara, as general secretary. It is entitled, “ Make the Commonwealth Bank the Nation’s Bank “. The pamphlet purports to describe the Government’s policy on banking. Referring to staffs, it says -

As the Commonwealth Bank expands, additional s.taff will be recruited from the trained officers of the private banks. The existing staffs of these banks will be progressively absorbed, thus avoiding unemployment and dislocation.

That is the policy, and I do not find fault with it. But what is the Government doing to implement it? If the

Government proposes to take control of the private trading (banks, it should find employment for their staffs. True, the Vice-President of the Executive Council said. -

I will be pleased to render aid to your members if they desire to transfer their employment.

Mr Archie Cameron:

– They are being added to.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– Of course. I represent electors, the great majority of whom have suffered as the result of the domination by the private banks over the . Government in this country; and should T neglect, to speak on their behalf I should fail in my duty to the people I represent. The whole effect of the speech of the Leader of the Opposition was to set up a man of straw. If we refute his argument that the private banks will be absorbed by the Commonwealth Bank, we destroy the whole of his argument in his second.reading speech that the private banks were the backbone of the banking system. For the sake of winning a paltry argument on a single clause of the bill, he has destroyed inferentially the conception that he endeavoured to build up in the minds of the people of Australia that the private banks are the backbone of the banking system in order to have a * go “ at the Speaker-

Mr Menzies:

– No, not the Speaker, but the honorable member for Dalley.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– He drew a red herring across the trail in order to win a paltry argument. The honorable member for Wentworth endeavoured to bolster up his case by reading confidential d documents-

Mr Harrison:

– I rise to order. The honorable member said that I read out confidential documents. I did not do so. I am prepared to lay those documents on the table, and thus expose his lying statement.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member has not raised a point of order.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– I advise the honorable member for Wentworth that his threat to lay the documents on the table is ill conceived. Those documents will be valuable in the future, because it is the last time that any Labour man will share his confidence with members of that organization at the risk of having such confidences bandied around this chamber.

I suggest that the honorable member’ should preserve that copy-

The Leader of the Opposition claimed that my argument that the elimination of redundant branches of banks must inevitably lead to the provision of cheaper money for the people showed that I was in favour of big business. I say, unashamedly and openly, that I am in flavour of big business; but the big business which I have in mind is the Commonwealth Bank. I hope I shall live to see that institution the only bank in this country.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Barker · ALP

– We have heard two speeches “to-night from the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear). The first reminded me of the roaring of a lion, but the second reminds me more of a sound that one hears on the plains at night, the howling of a dingo. Let us examine the accusation made by the honorable member for Dalley that the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison) had disclosed to this committee the contents of a confidential document, and, in so doing, had plumbed the depths of putridity. Frequently, I receive letters and telegrams from associations and from individuals. These communications are sent to me so that I may disclose to the people who are entitled to know these things, my views, as a public man, on public questions. There would be no point in expressing my views to an organization or individual by a telegram or letter, unless that communication was for publication and public use. That, in fact, is the reason for seeking my views. Recently, a man in my electorate who looks after the interests of the Douglas Credit organization, and to whom I had expressed certain views in correspondence, wrote to me and asked if I had any objection to publication of that correspondence. I said that I had no objection, provided- that two conditions were observed. The first was that any letter which I had sent should be published in full, without alteration or elimination; and the second was that I should not be involved in any expense. Every time any honorable member sends a letter to a constituent, to a local government body, or to some public organization, the purpose is to commit the writer publicly to certain views.

Mr Calwell:

– I am afraid that the honorable member for Barker does not answer many letters.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– I do, but if I do not choose to answer a letter I take responsibility for that just as I take full responsibility for refusing at election times to answer the question, “Do you consider that the salary of a member of Parliament should be such and such ?” The attack by the honorable member for Dalley upon the honorable member for Wentworth to-night, is with out precedent in this chamber, and I hope that it is a precedent which will not be followed. In answering an interjection by the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis) the honorable member for

Dalley built up a huge castle in Spain, but it had a sandy foundation. He argued that if, as he claimed, the honorable member for Moreton had said, four out of five bank branches had been closed in a particular country town during the war, that proved that one bank could handle all the work. If that argument be accepted, why not carry it a little farther and say that in a town, in the electorate of Dalley, for instance, instead of there being three or four butcher shops, there should be only one, thus saving overhead expenses and running costs? The honorable member might go even farther and argue that by closing some hotels, it would be possible to sell cheaper beer ; but I should like to hear him put that argument up to the Liquor Employees Federation or to the Licensed Victuallers Association. They might even send him a telegram about it. On the subject of overhead expenses, of course, in view of the publication of certain information to-day, one can regard the honorable member for Dalley as quite an authority. It appears to me - and I think that even you, Mr. Chairman, will pardon this remark - that to-night we have witnessed” the entry of another honorable member for a right honorable race in which only one can succeed’. The others will be “also-rans”. It is not hard to guess why this unusual amount of heat was imported into this debate, and why such an unusual twist was given to the little bit of white metal placed on the anvil by the honorable member for Dalley. The Bank Officers Association is a minor matter. What the honorable member for Dalley sought to do was to impress his powers of leadership and oratory on honorable members opposite, just as a caterpillar spins a silken envelope around itself and later emerges as a butterfly. I was “tickled pink” at one stage while you, Mr. Chairman, were unavoidably absent from the chair. My mind went back a few years to a time when I sat on the other side of the chamber. I observed the smiling, benign countenance of an exmember of the Lang party, at the table in charge of the bill; another ex-member of tie Lang party in the chair; a third ex-member of the .Lang party - one who, above :all others, was preferred, to have his portrait hung in the King’s Hall, in the .person of the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) - -arguing most valiantly and vociferously from the seat of a private member; and a further exmember of the Lang party, who was not in the Parliament at that time, assisting him - at least, I hope that he was - from his bench. All these things gave me greatly to wonder. If ever the honorable member for Dalley comes face to face with impartiality, one of them will perish.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- When this clause was called, I said that I intended to move an amendment that in all appointments the principle of preference to ex-servicemen shall be observed. I was -assured by ‘the Minister at the table that,that matter -was covered by the Re-establishment and Employment Bill. T -pointed out that many men in the services, -particularly members of air crews, were bank employees prior to -their enlistment, and that, with the reorganization of the -services, some of ‘them will want to return to that employment. The Government’s -policy of expanding the branches of the Commonwealth Hank, to the detriment of the private banks, will have the effect of closing the avenues of employment of many of these men. I was content to- accept the assurance of th Minister that they would be cared for. But since the honorable :member for Dalley (.Mr. Rosevear), . from the floor of the chamber, in a very subtle argument has said that the Commonwealth Bank will not be burdened with .redundant employees, and has expressed the hope “that he will live to see the day when only one bank will operate in Australia, it would appear that small mercy will be shown to .men .who belong to the Bank Officers Association. The honorable member for Dalley threatened that association for having dared to publish in its journal opinions in regard to this legislation that had been communicated to it by Government members. I do not intend that any of these -men shall run a risk, .if that can be avoided by an amendment. The Government can either accept or reject it. At least, we shall then know where it .stands. I’ therefore move -

Th at the following new -sub-clause be added: - “ (4.) In all appointments the principle of preference to ex-service men and women shall bo observed “.

Mr FRASER:
Monaro · Eden · ALP

– We have been treated to the quaint spectacle of the .Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) expressing pious horror at the prospect of -big business injuring the interests of small business, and his Deputy (Mr. Harrison) posturing as the champion of. trade unions and wageearners. I take no exception to the Deputy Leader of the .Opposition having quoted from the correspondence published .in the journal of the Bank Officers Association. .The reply which I ;sent .to that body was not private. But I do take strong exception to his attempt to make the committee believe that the federal union of the private trading bank employees is .seeking any .amendments whatever to this legislation. “He made that statement .several times. -He claimed that the federal union of the private bank employees was disappointed that the Government had not given .effect to its wish that certain amendments should be embodied in this legislation, and .said that there were amendments which it wished to .have. inserted,. I .believe that he is so completely ignorant of trade unionism in this country that he does not even know the name of the union which is the federal .representative of trading bank employees, or of one official of that union. He cannot cite one amendment which the union requires to have embodied in this legislation. The Leader of the Opposition, however, has stated that he will move an amendment to provide that the Commonwealth Bank must take over all employees displaced from private trading bank employment, and .has challenged’ members on the Government side as to how they will rote on it. I, having had the most ^complete liaison with that federal union in this matter from, the commencement of “the discussion.’, will vote against the amendment without the slightest compunction.

I suggest that the right honorable gentlemancannot mention one responsible officerof that organization who believes that such an amendment would be practicable or could properly be inserted in this legislation.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 153 and 154 agreed to.

Progress reported.

page 3126

ADJOURNMENT

Re-establishment in Employment of Mr. Edward Dymond - Australian Army: Releases.

Motion (by Mr. Chifley) proposed -

That the House do now adjourn.

Mr FROST:
Minister for Repatriation and Minister in charge of War Service Homes · Franklin · ALP

.- On the 25th May, during the de- bate on the Re-establishment and Employment Bill, the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis) made certain statements concerning the reestablishment in employment of a Mr. Edward Dymond, who served with the imperial forces in the war of 1914-18 and with the Australian forces in the present war. The honorable member’s statement was to the effect that there had been delay in placing Mr. Dymond in employment, that the employment was unsuitable, and that he had been refused assistance to find another position. I promised that I would investigate the complaint. The ex-soldier referred to undoubtedly earned certain distinction during his service in the Great War, in which he was a quartermaster-sergeant of the Royal Army Medical Corps of the British Army. I do not intend to dispute the decorations he is said to have won, but desire to make it quite clear that my department deals with each case on its merits, and ex-members of the forces who have received decorations becauseof their service cannot be treated differently from many thousands of others who have had honorable service but have not been awarded decorations. The ex-soldier referred to by the honorable member enlisted in the British Army on the 26th August, 1908, at the age of 23 years and six months and had dis tinguished service until his demobilization on the 17th April, 1920. The British authorities granted him a small pension for disabilities caused by rheumatism and deafness, but rejected his claim in respect of ear, nose and throat sepsis and deflected nasal septum. This pension was cancelled on the 21st August, 1923. His service documents described his occupation at the time of his enlistment as “ Plumber : qualifications - cook, nursing “. On the 6th June, 1940, he enlisted in the Australian Military Forces and gave his age as 44 years. According to the age given at the time of enlistment in the British Army, he would actually have been 55 years and four months when he joined the Australian Military Forces. He was discharged at his own request on the 12th March, 1941, to join the Royal Australian Air Force. Incidentally, during the whole of this nine months’ service with the Australian Military Forces he was employed as a cook. He then enlisted in the Royal Australian Air Force on the 13th March, 1941, giving his age as 45 years and six months, whereas his real age at that time would have been 56 years and one month. He was mustered cook on enlistment and was subseqnently discharged on the 2nd December, 1944, medically unfit, suffering from arteriosclerosis with hypertension, but these disabilities could not be accepted by the Repatriation Commission as arising out of his war service.

The honorable member for Moreton has mentioned that the ex-soldier was offered a job in the American forces, but was advised that he could not accept it because the department- presumably man-power - wanted to give him another job. It is indeed difficult to reconcile such a statement with the fact that the Returned ‘Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen’s Imperial League of Australia made application to my department on behalf of Dymond on the 2nd February, 1945, for the acceptance of hernia as a pensionable disability. It appears that on making his application to join the civilian staff of the American forces he was found to be suffering from this disability and was rejected. On the 4th December, 1944, he lodged an application through the rehabilitation section of the Man Power Directorate for unemployment sustenance, and this was paid by my department, from the 4th December, 1944, to the 4th March, 1945.

On the 30th March, 1945, the manpower authorities advised the Deputy Commissioner of Repatriation that Dymond had exhausted thirteen weeks’ unemployment allowance, and that there was no employment suitable to his age and disabilities, although he had, during the period of his unemployment, diligently endeavoured to obtain work by his own personal efforts. In view of this, my department granted an extension of the allowance from the 5th March, 1945. On the 23rd March, 194’5, the man-power officials advised that Dymond had commenced employment on that date as cook at the Clayfield Private Convalescent Home and sustenance was cancelled from the date of commencing work. However, on the 17th April, 1945, a further application was lodged for employment and sustenance, and inquiries elicited that he had worked for about one month when he was discharged, his services not being satisfactory, in that he was indolent, and intemperate. In view of this report the rehabilitation section of the Man Power Directorate was unable to recommend further payment of sustenance, and the Deputy Commissioner of Repatriation being in agreement, Dymond’s application was declined. Notwithstanding what has been reported regarding this man’s circumstances, there is no record of his ever having made any complaints to my department about his work at the convalescent hospital, and his statement about losing his employment through a breakdown in health is not substantiated by the evidence.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– I directed a question to the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Chifley) to-day regarding the release of members of the Australian Imperial Force who had fought overseas and had given more than five years’ service. I stressed the necessity for the release of those men as soon as possible. Every honorable member, irrespective of his political views, was, I think, greatly disappointed with the reply furnished by the Acting Prime Minister. I do not know whether he realizes the urgent need for the release of these men. He said that he would make a statement on the matter next week, but already two weeks have passed since his previous statement, which was made on the 1st June. In reply to a question which was then asked, he said that special releases were to be commenced as soon as possible on a graduated scale to be approved. This is not a matter which has been raised only in the last week or two, but it has been brought to the attention of Parliament on several occasions during the past few months. During the period in which it has been referred to. members of the Australian Imperial Force were largely engaged in training in North Queensland, and the work of reconstructing the battalions which had received a severe handling in the New Guinea campaign was in progress. When the announcement of the proposed release was made, it brought, hope, not only to the veterans themselves, but to all of their relatives and friends in Australia.

Since that announcement was made a fortnight ago, many members of the Australian Imperial Force have, I understand, been sent to battle areas. That is a shocking thing, when we consider that these men have already given five years’ service. They are the men who enlisted at the beginning of the war and offered their lives for the protection of Australia, first from the Germans and then from the Japanese. They fought in the campaigns of North Africa and in the blistering heat of the Libyan desert. Many of them took part in the disastrous campaign in Greece, to whose assistance they went for the honour of the British Empire. Many of them served in Crete, where they were rescued under the most desperate conditions. After their battles in the North African and Mediterranean campaigns, they were brought back to take part in the defence of Australia. I think that everybody will admit that the morale of the military forces of this country* at that time was at a low ebb. Judging’ by Mr. Barry’s report on the position in Papua at that time, we owe a debt to the men of the Australian Imperial Force, and should recognize the effect that their return to this country had on the morale of our troops generally and on the people of Australia. I said in 1942, and my statement has been substantiated by Mr. Barry, that it was a crying shame that untrained lads of eighteen year”, who. iri many oases, did not know how to handle a rifle; were sent to Papua at that time and thrown into the firing line. No wonder there was criticism of the morale of the troops. It is ridiculous to say that the veterans of the Australian Imperial Force cannot be spared from the divisions which are fighting’ at present in Borneo and New Guinea. Ministers interjecting from the front bench do not know anything about soldiering. They have never fought with’ arms. They have never done anything, but sling mud. It is only fourteen days’ ago’ that the Acting- Prime Minister said, iri effect’, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant. For what you have done to save the country in its hour of danger, you will now be released from further service “. We do not want a repetition of what happened to Lieutenant Derrick, V.C., D.C.M. The Government should keep faith with these men, and’ should honour the promise of the Acting Prime Minister. Now, only fourteen days after he gave his promise, these men are being flung into the battle line without having been given an opportunity to obtain their release. They and their relatives rejoiced when they read the announcement of the Acting Prime Minister. They are the bravest of the brave, and are entitled to fair treatment. Instead of receiving it, however, they have had their legs pulled. I know the Acting Prime Minister too well to believe that he has dishonoured his promise, but somebody has blundered badly. When a decision is made by War Cabinet, the military authorities should heed it. An immediate order should be given by the Government to the High Command, whether to the AdjutantGeneral or the Commander-in-Chief, that men entitled to discharge are not to bc sent into battle but to be discharged, unless they apply in writing to their commanding officers to remain in the forces. Men. serving in the north, who are entitled to discharge, should be automatically discharged unless they apply in writing to their commanding officers to remain in the Army. Even then there should be a medical inspection to’ see that they are physically and psychologically fit for further campaigning. The people of Australia will not be satisfied until the Acting Prime

Minister guarantees that that .will be done.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- I support the- appeal of the honorable member for New- England (Mr. Abbott). I raised this matter in 1943, and since then I have asked many times that long service men should be released. During the last war, men who had served for four years were given Anzac leave, which, meant that they were returned to Australia. What we are now asking for is the rule in New Zealand and in the United States of America. If a soldier of the- United- States of America elects to- stay on after the prescribed period, he may do so at increased pay. I put it to the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Chifley) some time ago that long service men be given the option of taking their discharge or staying on, and I think he favoured the idea. The same concession should apply to men of the Royal Australian Air Force and the Royal Australian Navy. Since the Acting Prime Minister has made a promise, it should be acted upon quickly. Only to-day, I received letters from, the Acting Minister for the Army (Senator Fraser) and from the Minister for Air (Mr. Drakeford) refusing applications for the release of men with five years’ service. They were the usual stereotyped replies saying that the applications had been carefully considered, but were not approved. An order should be issued immediately to the heads of the services directing them to arrange for the release of men in their commands who have had five years’ service, if the men desire it, and arrangements should be made for their relief.

Mr Calwell:

– The Government’s decision is definite and mandatory.

Mr WHITE:

– Then, apparently, it is not being acted upon, because the release of men with strong claims is still being refused. I refer to men who have served in the Middle East, in Greece, Crete, and New Guinea in combatant units-. The same applies to members of the Air Force who enlisted in 1940, and have already completed five years’ service. A process of re-organization is going on in the three services at the present time as honorable members know. Mr. Slater, M.L.A., is chairman of the committee which is inquiring into the re-organization of the

Air force. I exhort the Government to give immediate effect to the promise of the Acting Prime Minister. The present situation is causing great heart-burning among servicemen and their relatives. Those who are too proud to take their release, and prefer to go on fighting, should be given increased pay.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 3129

PAPERS

The following papers were pre sented : -

Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired for -

Commonwealth purposes -

Oakey, Queensland.

Toombul, Queensland.

Woolloongabba, Queensland.

Costal purposes - Moe, Victoria.

National Security Act-

National Security (Capital Issues) Regulations - Order - Exemption.

National Security (Rationing) Regulations - Order - No. 80.

House adjourned : at 11.18 p.m.

page 3129

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

The following answersto questions were circulated: -

Commonwealth Investigation Officers

Mr Holt:

t asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

What is the number of persons, exclusive of those serving with the forces, employed on investigation staffs, within the Commonwealth Administration and attached to each of the following sections: - (i) Prices Control; (ii) Rationing; (iii) Landlord and Tenant Regulations; (iv) Import and Export Supervision ; (v) Liquid Fuel, &c, Control: (vi) Posts and Telegraphs; (vii) B road casting; (viii) Censorship; (ix) Taxation; (x) Peace Officers; (xi) Commonwealth Security Service (exclusive of Peace Officers) ; and (xii) Commonwealth Investigation Branch ?

Mr Chifley:
ALP

– The information is being obtained and a reply will be furnished to the honorable member as early as possible.

Resignation of War Correspondent

Mr Bernard Corser:

r asked the Minister for Information, upon notice -

Is it a fact that War Correspondent Don Angel resigned from the service of the Government as a result of his dis-accreditation by the Director-General of Army Public Relations?
Will he table in Parliament all the files in connexion with this matter?

Mr Calwell:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : -

It is a fact that the withdrawal by the Army of Mr. Don Angel’s licence contributed to his resignation from the Department of Information.
As Mr. Angel has now formally sought from the Government an independent investigation of the circumstances which led to his disaccreditation, I feel that until a decision has been reached by the Government, it would be improper to table the file as requested. I have no objection to the honorable member perusing the file in myoffice. re-establishment of Ex-servicemen.

Mr White:

e asked the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction, upon notice -

What is the number of ex-service men and women undertaking vocational training under the governmental scheme, showing totals in each State?
How many applications were received in each State?
In what categories of employment are the men and women referred to being trained?
What number has completed training?
What are the age groups of those who are training?

Mr Dedman:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : -

The number of ex-service men and women undertaking vocational training is as follows: -

The total number of applications received were 10,169 males and 1,059 females. The numbers of effective applications received in each State are as follows: -

The men and women arc being trained in the following main categories of courses: - Art, boot repairing, brick-laying, cabinetmaking, carpentry and joinery, commercial book-keeping, dressmaking, hairdressing, plumbing, wireless operating, wool-classing, accountancy, architecture, builders quantities, building construction, diesel engines, draughtsmanship, electrical trades, engineering trades, motor mechanics, radio, welding, sheep and wool, agriculture, poultry farming.
148 males and 12 females have completed training; 272 males and 39 females have terminated or withdrawn from their courses.
This would require detailed analysis of every application in every State.

Time-payment Sales

Mr Archie Cameron:
ALP

n asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Does the Government propose to introduce a bill to control the sale of land, goods, chattels or shares on time payment?

Mr Chifley:
ALP

– It is not the practice to make statements on Government policy in reply to questions.

Dairying Industry

Mr Fadden:

n asked the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture, upon notice -

Did he on the 1st July, 1942, appoint a committee to investigate the dairying industry?
In the letter appointing the committee, did he emphasize the urgency of the matter?
When did the committee submit its interim report? 4.In that report, did the committee recommend that immediate steps be taken with the object of securing a minimum return to dairy farmers of not less than1s.51/2d. per lb., commercial butter, and that to ensure such a return, prices on the Commonwealth market be increased by 37/8d. per lb. in the case of butter, and 2d. per lb. in the case of cheese?
Did the committee, in a second report, dated August, 1942, state that examination of further evidence available to it confirmed the recommendations made in its interim report, referred to in paragraph 4?
Did the committee, in that report, inform the Minister that witnesses had confirmed its expressed views in that they were unanimous in their emphatic belief that a price increase was the only means of quickly lifting production to desired levels?
Did the Government reject the recommendations referred to in paragraphs 4 and 5?
What delay occurred between the submission of the committee’s interim report and the introduction into Parliament of the Dairying Industry Assistance Bill?
Did that legislation provide for the payment of a subsidy of £2,000,000?
When were the first subsidy payments made under that legislation?
On how many pounds of butter was -
1. the subsidy paid during the financial year ended the 30th June, 1943, and what was the total amount of subsidy paid during that period; and (b) the £2,000,000 subsidy paid?

Mr Scully:
ALP

y. - The information is being obtained but delay will ensue because of work involved.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 14 June 1945, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1945/19450614_reps_17_183/>.

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House of Representatives14 June 1945

QUESTION

MK. J. B. CHIFLEY, M.P

Mr MENZIES:KOOYONG, VICTORIA

Mr FADDEN:DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND

Mr CHIFLEY:Treasurer · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

CLOTHES RATIONING

Mr CHAMBERS:ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr BEASLEY:Vice-President of the Executive Council · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

AUDITOR-GENERAL’S REPORT

Mr FADDEN:

Mr SPEAKER (Hon J S Rosevear:DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HOLT:FAWKNER, VICTORIA

Mr CHIFLEY:ALP

Mr Menzies:

Mr CHIFLEY:

QUESTION

THE PARLIAMENT

Mr WILLIAMS:ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHIFLEY:ALP

QUESTION

POTATOES

Mr FULLER:HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr SCULLY:Minister for Commerce and Agriculture · GWYDIR, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

FLOODS T2ST NORTHERN KEW SOUTH WALES

Mr ANTHONY:Richmond

Mr CHIFLEY:Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

QUESTION

REAL ESTATE TRANSACTION’S

Mr MORGAN:REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHIFLEY:ALP

QUESTION

MIGRATION

Mr BERNARD CORSER:WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND

Mr CHIFLEY:ALP

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN FORCES

Mr ABBOTT:NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHIFLEY:ALP

WHEAT INDUSTRY

Mr WILLIAMS:

WHEAT IMPOST ANOMALY

Miller Urges Revision

Mr SCULLY:ALP

QUESTION

MANUFACTURE OF MOTOR VEHICLES

Mr HUTCHINSON:DEAKIN, VICTORIA

Mr DEDMAN:Minister in charge of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research · CORIO, VICTORIA · ALP

QUESTION

MAN-POWER

Dr GAHA:DENISON, TASMANIA

Mr CHIFLEY:ALP

COALMINING INDUSTRY

Mr BEASLEY:ALP

QUESTION

VICTORIAN SUGAR SUPPLIES

Mr HOLT:

Mr HOLLOWAY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · FLP; ALP from 1936

QUESTION

AUSTRALASIAN COUNCIL OF TRADES UNIONS CONFERENCE

Mr HARRISON:WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHIFLEY:ALP

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Mr CHIFLEY:Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

COMMONWEALTH BANK BILL 1945

Mr MENZIES:Leader of the Opposition · Kooyong

Mr LAZZARINI:Minister for Home Security and Minister for Works · Werriwa · ALP

Mr FADDEN:Darling DownsLeader of the Australian Country party

Dr GAHA:Denison

Mr ABBOTT:New England

Mr ABBOTT:

Mr Sheehan:

Mr ABBOTT:

Mr CHIFLEY:Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

Mr MORGAN:REID, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr CHIFLEY:

Mr Anthony:

House of Representatives
14 June 1945

Mr MENZIES:
KOOYONG, VICTORIA

Mr FADDEN:
DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND

Mr CHIFLEY:
Treasurer · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr CHAMBERS:
ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr BEASLEY:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr SPEAKER (Hon J S Rosevear:
DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HOLT:
FAWKNER, VICTORIA

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

Mr WILLIAMS:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

Mr FULLER:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr SCULLY:
Minister for Commerce and Agriculture · GWYDIR, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

Mr CHIFLEY:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

Mr MORGAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

Mr BERNARD CORSER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

Mr ABBOTT:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

Mr SCULLY:
ALP

Mr HUTCHINSON:
DEAKIN, VICTORIA

Mr DEDMAN:
Minister in charge of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research · CORIO, VICTORIA · ALP

Dr GAHA:
DENISON, TASMANIA

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

Mr BEASLEY:
ALP

Mr HOLLOWAY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · FLP; ALP from 1936

Mr HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

Mr CHIFLEY:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

Mr MENZIES:
Leader of the Opposition · Kooyong

Mr LAZZARINI:
Minister for Home Security and Minister for Works · Werriwa · ALP

Mr FADDEN:
Darling DownsLeader of the Australian Country party

Dr GAHA:
Denison

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

Mr CHIFLEY:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

Mr MORGAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Sir EARLE PAGE:
Cowper

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

Mr BERNARD CORSER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · CP

Mr FRANCIS:
Moreton

Mr BRYSON:
Bourke

Mr HUGHES:
North Sydney