House of Representatives
20 December 1918

7th Parliament · 2nd Session



Mr. Speaker (Hon. W. Elliot Johnson) took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers.

page 9927

QUESTION

RETURNED AMMUNITION WORKERS

Mr TUDOR:
YARRA, VICTORIA

– Some time ago I brought under the notice of the Assistant Minister for Defence the case of a returned munition worker, who had been sent back invalided. Before he left Australia he was a temporary employee in the Railway Department of the State Government, but as that Government is now obtaining all its employees through the Repatriation Department, he cannot get back to his former work. He is a man with a sick wife. I do not know whether there are many such cases, but I ask the Minister to see that returned munition workers are given a fair chance of getting back to their previous employment.

Mr WISE:
Honorary Minister · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT

– I shall see what can be done.

page 9927

PAPERS

The following papers were presented -

Taxation. - Report of the Commissioner, 1915-16.

Ordered to be printed.

Naval Defence Act. - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1918, Nos. 317 and 318.

page 9927

DEFENCEOF AUSTRALIA

Visitof Lord Jellicoe

Mr. WATT (Balaclava-Acting Prime

Minister and Treasurer) [11.4]. - (By leave.) - Some time ago, when the Loan Bill was under discussion, I intimated that the Government desired to revise the Naval and Naval Base programme of Australia, and hoped to be able to inform the House that an expert of eminence would be allowed by the British Admiralty authorities to visit Australia to give us advice. The Minister for the Navy (Sir Joseph Cook) had been in touch with the Admiralty authorities before that announcement was made, and now that the demobilization of the Imperial Navy is in prospect, he has accomplished something which I think will especially gratify the citizens of this country. Late last night, I wasadvised by him that it has been definitely decided that Lord Jellicoe should leave for Australia in February to review the whole Naval position. The right honorable gentleman added that the announcement could now be mode public. That our importance is held to warrant the election of this officer, who served his country so illustriously during the early part of the war, and that we are to obtain the best advice on Naval defence that modern science and shipcraft can give us, will, I am sure, arouse in the breasts of the Australian people a feeling of confidence and pride.

Mr WATT:
Treasurer · BALACLAVA, VICTORIA · NAT

– The demobilization of the Australian section of the fleet is now under consideration.

Lt.-Colonel Abbott:

– Is a military expert adviser to visit Australia?

Mr WATT:

– I have no announcement to make on that subject yet.

page 9928

QUESTION

PRICES OF SUGAR

Mr BAMFORD:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND

– With regard to the statement of the honorable member for Franklin (Mr. McWilliams) yesterday concerning the prices at. which sugar can be obtained abroad, will the Minister for Trade and Customs tell the House, or, if that cannot be done before the holidays, publish in the press, a statement of the prices of sugar both inside and outside Australia?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

-Being engaged elsewhere at the, time, I did not hear the remarks of the honorable member for. Franklin (Mr. McWilliams), but, either before or immediately after the holidays, I shall gladly make a statement setting out the full position, and giving the world’s prices of sugar. This, I think, will clear up a good many misconceptions.

page 9928

DEPARTURE OF FRENCH MISSION

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I wish to read to the House, for the information of honorable members, a letter which I have received from General Pau, who leaves Australia tomorrow. It is addressed in a personal way to me, and is as follows : -

Republique Francai se,

Melbourne, 19th December, 1918

Mission Francaise en Australie.

Dear Mr. Watt,

The French Mission is now about to leave this country after having received, not only from the Commonwealth and State Governments of Australia, but from the whole Australian people, a welcome of which the cordiality, generosity and genuineness will never be forgotten by us.

We know that such a welcome is not only extended to us, but through us to our noble country, and we do not expect ever being able to express by any words or actions the sincerity and depth of our gratitude.

Remembering, however, what Australia has done for France during these last four years of common ordeal and glory, we, members of the French Mission, should like; I do not say to pay a debt of gratitude, because that would be impossible, but we should like to mark in some visible way that the name of Australia is now written in our hearts as well as in the heart of France.

As a memory of our sojourn among you, as a passing sign of our gratefulness to Australia - which will be everlasting - allow me, dear Mr. Watt, to oiler you the enclosed sum of £1,000, which it is my wish to see distributed by you in the best way in your . discretion to the widows and orphans of the Australian heroes who, by voluntarily giving their lives to a sacred cause, have so largely contributed to the defence of the soil of France and to the now triumphant victory of the Allies.

Renewing the expression of my sincere friendship, believe me, dear Mr. Watt,

Yours very sincerely,

General G. Pau

This offer is an exceptional one, and, on behalf of this House and the people of Australia,I shall take the earliest opportunity to express our grateful recognition of the generosity of the French Mission, and of the illustrious soldier who is at its head.

page 9928

PAYMENT OF PENSIONS BEFORE HOLIDAYS

Mr STORY:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Next Thursday, being the day after Christmas Day, is a public holiday, and I therefore ask the PostmasterGeneral if he will arrange that the pensions and military allotments payable through the post offices shall be obtainable before Christmas Day, and that all persons interested shall be notified of that arrangement.

Mr WATT:
NAT

-Sofar as lies in my power, I shall endeavour to do what is suggested. Another. Department has a “ say “ in the matter ; but, if it will fall into line with the Post Office Department, the wishes of the honorable member will be met.

page 9929

QUESTION

INSURANCE :REPLIES TO QUESTIONS

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

– Has the Prime Minister yet received a reply to a question which I put to him the other day on an insurance matter? Will he also see that the replies to questions which are unanswered in Parliament shall be sent, during the recess, to the postal addresses of members?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I asked last night for the information which the honorable member seeks, and was told that it had not been received, so I wired, asking for it. I shall see that the information, if it does not come to hand before the holidays, is supplied to the honorable member by post.

page 9929

QUESTION

FLOUR MILLING: NORTHERN NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I shall see how far it is possible to do what the honorable member suggests, and shall consult Senator Russell on the subject. It will, I think, require a slight adjustment of the price of flour, and possibly of bread, throughout the northern areas of New South Wales. If what the honorable member asks can be done, I shall see that it is done, and that he is informed of the action taken.

page 9929

QUESTION

NAVY AND DEFENCE ADMINISTRATION

Mr TUDOR:

– Has the Ministry yet considered what action it will take in regard to the report of the Commission on Navy and Defence Administration ? Is it intended to appoint a Judge to make a further inquiry?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The Ministry will not have time to deliberate concerning this or any other question until Parliament has adjourned for the holidays, but I shall see that the promise that . I gave to the honorable member is observed. As soon as the Hansard record of the speech of the honorable member for Bass (Mr. Jensen) and of speeches made on the subject in the Senate reaches me, it shall have my personal attention, and Cabinet deliberation will follow.

page 9929

QUESTION

EXPORTATION OF PERISHABLE PRODUCE

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Will the Acting Prime Minister make to the Home authorities the most urgent representations possible, with a view’ to securing an immediate supply of insulated space to enable the exportation of meat, which is now, by reason of the weather conditions, andthe very full supply of fat stock, taking up all the refrigerating accommodation within the Commonwealth, to continue? This will permit Australia to commercialize her great flocks and herds, will keep employment going, and will prevent waste.

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I have already, for the information of the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes), sketched the problem in very bold outline as it has been presented to. me by the interests concerned, and by representatives in this chamber. I have told him of the urgent and clamant necessity for doing all that we can to obtain insulated space to relieve the meat and fresh-fruit situation. I have no doubt that he is doing what he can, but I have no definite information as to what success has so far attended his efforts.

page 9929

PUBLIC SERVICE BILL (No. 3)

Bill received from Senate, and (on motion by Mr. Watt)read a first time.

page 9930

WAR-TIME PROFITS TAX ASSESSMENT BILL

Bill returned from the Senate, with an amendment.

Ordered -

That the messagebe considered in Committee at a later hour of theday.

page 9930

APPROPRIATION BILL 1918-19

Bill returned from the Senate, without request.

page 9930

QUESTION

NORTHERN TERRITORY

Mr MATHEWS:

– In view of the extraordinarily acute situation in the Northern Territory, will the Minister for Home and Territories consider the adv visableness of appointing a Commission to visit the Territory to inquire into the disabilities under which the people of Darwin are suffering and to hear suggestions as to the best means of ameliorating their condition ?

Mr GLYNN:
Minister for Home and Territories · ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

– I have already dealt with the question as to whether or not the appointment of such a Commission is desirable and do not think that we should be justified in sending up another. The whole position has been under consideration for some time. It was decided that the Administrator should visit Melbourne, and when he comes down, as he will do about February next, we shall go into the whole question of the situation in the Territory. I cannot promise the honorable member that a Commission will be sent up.

page 9930

QUESTION

WAR INVENTIONS

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– In regard to the improvements that have been made in respect of civil and mechanical engineering as the result of experience gained in the war, will the Acting Prime Minister consider the advisableness of securing designs and models of such mechanical appliances as, say, locomotives and light lines of railway, bridges, pontoons, and road-making appliances, used at the Front, as well as of improved systems for the erection of telephone and telegraph lines, and other undertakings which have proved most valuable in connexion with the war? I urge that these should be obtained for the purpose of adapting them to Australian conditions and applying them to the development of our rural districts. Will the Government give these matters their earnest consideration?

Mr Tudor:

– This sounds like an essay.

Mr WATT:
NAT

– It is all very well for the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Tudor) to sneer in this sardonic way at the question put by my honorable friend (Mr. John Thomson), who, if he were in the habit of asking as many questions as the Leader of the Opposition does, would no doubt put them in a more condensed form. This is a one-a-session question in tabloid form, and I shall see that the suggestion conveyed in it is considered by the Government.

page 9930

QUESTION

SHAW WIRELESS WORKS

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

– I desire to ask the Acting Prime Minister whether he will have printed the report made in connexion with the offer of the Shaw Wireless Works to the Postmaster-General’s Department ?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– Yes; I see no objection to that. I have read the report, and do not think that it contains any confidential matter.

Mr Tudor:

– Would the honorable gentleman also cause to be printed some of the exhibits mentionedin that report?

Mr WATT:

– The printing of the exhibits as a supplement to the report would throw a good deal of light on the whole matter. I shall consult the Acting Attorney-General (Mr. Groom) to see whether that can be done.

page 9930

QUESTION

CENSORSHIP

Mr FOWLER:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Can the Acting Prime Minister explain how it is that the censorship is still being rigorously exercised, and that it has been used to prevent the sending of messages to Great Britain in connexion with the recent trouble in the Northern Territory?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I am not aware that that has been done. I have seen in the newspapers the statement that the message in regard to the original trouble was held back for a time from the Australian press.

Mr Fowler:

– The censorship is still being exercised in the way I have indicated.

Mr WATT:

– I shall inquire into the matter. The Minister for Defence (Senator Pearce) is the only member of the Cabinet who has personal touch with the censorship. I shall ascertain what was the reason for the action taken, because the promise of the Government still holds.

page 9931

QUESTION

OVERPAYMENTS TO SOLDIERS AND THEIR DEPENDANTS

Mr BRUCE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA

– In reply to a question put recently by the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Fowler) with regard to overpayments to soldiers, the Assistant Minister for Defence (Mr. Wise) supplied the answer that, where such overpayments were due to the negligence of the Department, the soldier concerned would not be penalized. I desire to ask the honorable gentleman whether he is aware that the interpretation placed upon this decision is that, where any overpayment has been made, either to a soldier or the dependant of a soldier, and has accrued- to the benefit of either, the Department will not, even if it was the result of its own negligence, make a refund? Does the honorable gentleman consider that such an interpretation is fair, in view of the fact that in 99 cases out of 100 such overpayments must be for the benefit of the soldier concerned or hia dependants?

Mr WISE:
NAT

– I am not aware that the decision is being interpreted in that way, but I shall make inquiries.

page 9931

QUESTION

DR. MANNIX

Military Guard of Honour

Mr PALMER:
ECHUCA, VICTORIA

– As a preliminary to a question that I shall .put to the Acting Prime Minister, I desire to call .his attention to an advertisement in a newspaper, bearing date 19th December. In this advertisement there appears a mutilated picture of the flag. Only that part of the flag which distinguishes it from the Union Jack is shown. Underneath it appears an announcement of an entertainment to be held .at the Exhibition Building in aid of St. Vincent’s

Hospital, and the statement that a Noble Guard will escort His Grace, Dr. Mannix to the building, where he will be received by a guard of honour of returned soldiers. I desire to ask the honorable gentleman whether this guard of honour of returned soldiers has been authorized by. the Government, and whether they are prepared to permit an announcement concerning a guard of honour of returned soldiers to appear under a picture showing a mutilation of the British flag?

Mr Falkiner:

– What is the newspaper. Is it the Presbyterian Messenger!

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The honorable member for Echuca (Mr. Palmer) has handed me the newspaper which, I find, is the Tribune, a journal of Catholic information and. literature. This is the first I have seen of the advertisement. In the picture the Union Jack has, apparently, been cut out of the Australian ensignwhether by design or to provide space for an announcement to be printed on the flag I do not know.

Mr Palmer:

– By design, I am sure.

Mr WATT:

– I do not know what the Noble Guard is, but I have seen a reference to it before.

Mr Lynch:

– Is it possible that the tolerant member for Echuca might be making a mistake?

Mr WATT:

– Yes; I do not think he claims Papal infallibility.

Mr Fenton:

– Why not allow a picture of the honorable member for Echuca to be printed in the vacant space in the flag ?

Mr WATT:

– I was going to suggest that a photograph of myself should appear in it. It might, however, be mistaken for the physiognomy of a Catholic priest, and, perhaps, k would not be advisable to dp anything of the kind. Speaking seriously, however, as to the guard of returned soldiers, I should say, without any knowledge of the facts at all, that it is highly improbable that anything of the kind has received the official sanction of the Defence Department.

Mr Tudor:

– Returned soldiers have a right to do what they like in that regard.

Mr WATT:

– I am not speaking of that. It is a matter for the returned soldiers, whether Roman Catholics or Protestants, to decide for themselveswhether they should line up in connexion with a function of the kind, but the Defence Department would not provide a guard of honour on such an occasion.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– They could not appear in uniform without permission.

Mr WATT:

– I think not.

page 9932

QUESTION

INTER-STATE COMMISSION

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

– Will the Acting Prime Minister state whether it is true that Mr. Swinburne has resigned from the InterState Commission, and, if so, whether the Government propose to appoint a successor or to abolish the Commission?

Mr WATT:
NAT

- Mr. Swinburne has forwarded a letter of resignation to me, as the acting head of the Government, but I have had no opportunity of presenting it, to the Cabinet to determine what shall be done. The resignation involves on our part consideration as to whether the office can be filled temporarily. As to that, I have no advice from the Crown Law officer.

Mr Sinclair:

– Or whether the Commission should be abolished?

Mr WATT:

– It also involves a careful consideration of the functions of the Commission, and the question as to how far they can be beneficially extended or altered by statute. We can do nothing in that regard by Executive act.

page 9932

QUESTION

GERMAN BASES IN THE PACIFIC

Mr SAMPSON:
WIMMERA, VICTORIA

– Together with other honorable members I have received copies of a resolution passed by various shire councils in Victoria - following upon action taken by the City Council of St. Kilda, which is in the Acting Prime Minister’s constituency - indorsing the resolution recently passed by this House respecting German bases in the Pacific. I desire to ask the Acting Prime Minister whether he has received from the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) or the British War Cabinet any reply to the message forwarding for the information of the British Government the resolution passed by this House.

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I have not received any official reply through the Secretary of

State for the Colonies and the GovernorGeneral, but I have been, and am still, in frequent touch with the Prime Minister with regard to the matter. I received yesterday a cablegram from my right honorable colleague asking for certain information of a vital kind in relation to it That information is now being collected, and will be despatched to-day. I shall see that with its despatch a statement of the strong feeling that exists amongst a large section of the people of this part of Australia in support of the resolution passed by this House is also conveyed to the Prime Minister for the information of the British War Cabinet.

page 9932

QUESTION

DEFENCE DEPARTMENT

Hat Contract

Mr TUDOR:

– In regard to the Defence Department’s hat contract, may I ask the Acting Prime Minister. (Mr. Watt) to see that both employees and employers are consulted before any of the conditions are altered?

Mr WISE:
NAT

– I shall submit the suggestion to the Minister for Defence.

page 9932

QUESTION

IRISH INTERNEES

Mr BRENNAN:
BATMAN, VICTORIA

– I ask the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt) whether on this, the last day of the sittings, and so near Christmas, he will definitely state whether we may expect that the Irish internees will be permitted to have their Christmas dinner at home.If I might add one sentence, I would say that an announcement of the kind would give great gratification to the general public, and especially to the honorable member for Echuca (Mr. Palmer).

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The honorable member has finished with such a strange tail to his question, that I think I might refer the proposition to a Select Committee of one, namely, the honorable member for Echuca (Mr. Palmer) ; and if the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) would devote the remainder of his time to reading the evidence given at such an inquiry, it probably would illuminate his darkened mind.

Mr Brennan:

– There was nothing wrong in the way I put the question.

Mr WATT:

– The question was quite mild compared with what the honorable member generally attempts and achieves. It is the intention of the Government, with regard to the men who are to be released, that they shall be released without delay, and I should not be at all surprised if the necessary machinery has been set in effective motion. I shall inquire and facilitate the matter, for we have no desire to keep these men interned one hour longer than is necessary.

page 9933

QUESTION

INFLUENZA EPIDEMIC

Dr MALONEY:

– Will the Acting Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Greene) inform, the Blouse of the latest form of treatment of influenza, and precautionary measures taken in other countries, especially England and the United States, to combat the epidemic?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I understand that an address has been delivered by Dr. Cumpston, Director of Quarantine, at a conference held of State representatives, setting out, as far as possible, the proper methods of treatment and so forth. Copies of that address have, I think, been printed and forwarded to the various branches of the British Medical Association for distribution amongst the members throughout Australia.

page 9933

QUESTION

RECRUITING LITERATURE

Mr BAYLEY:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

– lt had been my intention, when the general Estimates were under discussion, to say something about the expenditure incurred in connexion with recruiting, but owing to the expedition with which the Estimates were passed I had no opportunity. I must, therefore, content myself with asking the Minister in charge of Recruiting (Mr. Orchard) to state who is responsible for the expenditure in connexion with the issue of printed matter for the few months prior to the signing of the armistice?

Mr ORCHARD:
Honorary Minister · NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– Before I became associated with recruiting, in an administrative capacity, and after almost every avenue of approaching eligible men had been exhausted, the Director-General of

Recruiting, Mr. Donald Mackinnon, conceived’* the idea of a “follow-up” system, with letters and illustrative literature, to be posted direct to the men of military age, and orders for printing were placed by him with the various firms. After these had been completed, it was found that the lists of eligibles were larger than anticipated. The matter was then referred to me; and, after consultation with the Treasurer, the order for printing was increased in order to complete the scheme.

page 9933

QUESTION

SENDING OF DEFENCE CLERKS TO ENGLAND

Dr MALONEY:

– Has the Assistant Minister for Defence (Mr. Wise) been able to make inquiries in reference to the sending of thirty Defence clerks to England? Will the honorable gentleman consider whether there are not enough clerks to be found amongst the soldiers at the Front to make up this number and thus save the expense of sending men from here, especially when those sent are not returned soldiers?

Mr WISE:
NAT

– I shall do so.

page 9933

QUESTION

RED FLAG

Release of Offenders

Mr TUDOR:

– On two occasions the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt) has been interviewed by deputations in reference to those two or three persons who have been punished for flying the red flag. Will the honorable gentleman consider the matter with a view to clemency being exercised, in view of the fact that tha armistice has been signed, and, further, that there is practically no necessity f01 this WaT Precautions Regulation at the present time? The man Richard Long, who I understand is in gaol-

Mr Watt:

– That is the man from the Yarra Bank?

Mr TUDOR:

– -Yes. He is a perfectly harmless person; and I shall be obliged if the Acting Prime Minister oan see his w.ay to exercise Christmas clemency to him and others similarly circumstanced.

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The honorable member, with a number of his friends interested in the matter, did see me on a couple of occasions, and I promised to make inquiries. I communicated with the AttorneyGeneral’s Department, and have been expecting a reply every day; further,I yesterday spoke to the Solicitor-General on the matter, and as soon as I get a chance I shall go into it. I have no objection, from a Government point of view, if there is no legal objection, to the release of the men who have made this mistake.

page 9934

DR. MANNIX

Military Parade of Honour

Mr PALMER:

– I should like to know whether the Government gave, or would give, permission for returned soldiers in uniform to parade in honour of Dr. Mannix, as stated in the Tribune.

Mr WISE:
NAT

– I am not in a position to say, but I should certainly think not, at any rate, with the authority of the Defence Department.

page 9934

QUESTION

GOVERNMENT PRINTER : BONUS

Mr FENTON:

– An item has appeared on the Estimates from year to year, on the recommendation of the Treasury Department, of £150 per annum to be paid, by way of bonus, to the Government Printer of the State of Victoria for, I presume, work done on behalf of the Commonwealth. The Government Printer has been away from Australia for a considerable time, and during his absence the work has been performed by the Acting Government Printer, Mr. Green. Can the Treasurer make some arrangement by which, when the bonus is disbursed, some of it may find its way to the Acting Government Printer?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– Another phase of this question was dealt with last night, when I said I was not quite sure whether the bonus was actually given to the man for whom it is intended. I have ransacked my memory, and I think I can remember, as State Treasurer of Victoria, giving a ruling on this question, it being represented that somespecially heavy work had been imposed on the Government Printer, and that he was therefore entitled to the amount actually voted. I do not quite know whether I can interfere with the discretion of the Government Printer’s employer - the Victorian Government. I shall take an opportunity, however, to discreetly convey to the State Treasurer the suggestion of the honorable member.

page 9934

QUESTION

QUEENSLAND WAR LOAN COMMITTEE

Mr WATT:
NAT

– On the 7th November, the honorable member for Brisbane (Mr. Finlayson) asked the following questions : -

  1. Who were the members of the Queensland Central War Loan Committee?
  2. What amount did each member receive in connexion with the Seventh War Loan?
  3. What was the total expenditure in Queensland for the Seventh War Loan for - (a) Advertising; (b) printing and publishing; (c) salaries; (d) commissions?

The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

  1. President - Mr. John McMaster, mayor of Brisbane; chairman - Mr. Frank Bowcher; members - Messrs. Henry Monteith, A.S. Douglas, D. Carroll, B. W. Macdonald, T. J. Rothwell, J. Mackenzie Lees, Ernest Wickham, W. J. Coakes. P. A. Blundell, J. S. Badger. H. W. Bryam, Hon. T. C. Beirne, M.L.C., and A. H. Whittingham.
  2. No payments have been made to the members of the Queensland Central War Loan Committee the appointments being purely honorary.
  3. Particulars of the total expenditure in Queensland for the Seventh War Loan are not yet available. The information will be furnished at a later date.

I am now in a position to supply the honorable member with the following additional information in regard to question No. 3: -

  1. Advertising, £2,569; (b) printing and publishing, £886: (c) salaries. £1,806; (d) commissions, £5,550; total, £10,811.

page 9934

QUESTION

WHEAT POOL: INCOME TAX

Mr WATT:
NAT

– On the 11th December, the honorable member for Echuca (Mr. Palmer) asked the following question : -

It appears that theIncome Tax Commissioner is now assessing wheat-growers on the full value of the wheat that they have in the Pool. They complain that this is unjust, and say that they should be debited for the year only with the amount of dividends that they have received out of the Pool. That appears to me to be only fair and reasonable. I ask the Treasurer if he can see his way to discontinue the present practice?

I am now able to supply the honorable member with the following additional information : -

The Commissioner of Taxation reports as follows: - “Section 14 (o) of the Income Tax Act requires that the value of all produce on hand at the end of the year covered by the income tax return shall be brought to account as part of the income of the taxpayer. All wheat sent to the Wheat Pool for which a certificate has not been issued by the Pool must, therefore, be brought to account as income at its full value. Where the Pool ha9 issued a certificate for wheat sent to it, the market selling value of the certificate, together with all advances made under it by the Pool during the year covered by the income tax return, must be included m the return as part of the taxpayer’s income.’ Tn any ‘case in which a farmer has been taxed in one year on the market value of his unsold certificate he brings forward that value in his next return as a deduction from the amount, if any, realized on the sale of the certificate in the next year; or, if the certificate has not been sold, the deduction will be set against any additional advance received on the certificate, plus the market value of the certificate as it then stands. There is no power under the law to tax a wheat-grower only on the amount of dividend received by him during the year.”

page 9935

QUESTION

SUPPLY OF TIN

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The honorable member for new England (Lt. -Colonel Abbott) asked on Thursday last - li Whether the amount of tin required by England, America, and other consuming countries is still equal to or ahead of production?

  1. If so, why is buying restricted?

The answer is - 1 and 2. Owing to its geographical position and the freedom from risk of shipping via Pacific. Australian tin has, during the war, been sold almost exclusively to America; and, when the Inter-Allied Tin Executive was formed, the Australian production was allocated by the executive to America. It is reported in commercial cables that America has heavily over-bought, and that prices have been fixed for home consumpion in order to enable supplies to bc marketed. It is also stated that America has large stocks of Banca tin on hand. America is, therefore, not a buyer of tin at present. The Prime Minister has arranged for a free market for tin in England.

page 9935

QUESTION

SPELTER ZINC: TREATMENT

Mr WATT:
NAT

– On the 17th December, the honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) asked me the following questions: -

  1. Has any part of the £500.000 or other sum, promised by the British Government for the purpose of fostering the treatment of spelter zinc or other metals in Australia, been allotted or promised to any person or company, or have the Government, in view of the promise of the British Government, granted or promised to grant any financial assistance to any. person or company for the treatment of zinc or other metals?
  2. If so, to what extent, to whom and under what conditions?

I am now in a position to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

No allotment or promise has been made, but applications for advances are at present under consideration.

page 9935

QUESTION

MALVERN TELEPHONE EXCHANGE: WAGES

Mr WEBSTER:
Postmaster-General · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– On the 13th instant, the honorable member for Henty (Mr. Boyd) asked the following questions: -

  1. Whether it is a fact that telephonists in the Malvern Exchange who are equal in status are paid at different rates of wages?
  2. If so. what is the reason for differential treatment”?
  3. Will the Minister undertake to pay equal pay for equal work in all the telephone exchanges?

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : - 1, 2, and 3. The salaries of telephonists, whether they are paid award rates or those prescribed by the Public Service Regulations, range from £54 to £126 per annum, according to the length of service or age of the telephonist. A report furnished by the Deputy PostmasterGeneral, Melbourne, indicates that these conditions’ are observed at Malvern, and there ia no differential treatment, each officer receiving the salary to which she is entitled.

page 9935

QUESTION

SYDNEY POST OFFICE

Armistice Holiday

Mr WEBSTER:
NAT

– On the 19th instant, the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley) asked the following questions : -

  1. Whether an instruction, signed by the supervisor, was placed on the staff noticeboards of various sections of the Mail Branch, General Post Office, Sydney, on the 12th November last, informing certain men that they would he off all day on the 13th November, a public holiday?
  2. If so, will these men, for obeying instructions, be penalized by deduction of pay or annual leave?

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

  1. The Deputy Postmaster-General, Sydney, reports as follows: - “In some sections of the Mail Branch, notices were displayed on Tuesday, 12th ult., that men who were kept on duty on 12th would not be required to attend on the 13th, as such was a public holiday. In other sections, the names of holiday staff for attendance on 13th were displayed on staff roster lists.
  2. I will look into the whole matter in Sydney during next week, and will see that justice is done.

page 9936

QUESTION

BRISBANE POST OFFICE

Temporary Clerks

Mr WEBSTER:
NAT

– On the 19th in stant, the honorable member for Oxley (Mr. Bayley) asked the following questions : -

  1. Whether it is a fact that returned soldiers serving as temporary clerks in the General Post Office Brisbane, who, through sickness, have been absent from duty, have, unlike the permanent staff, had their pay stopped for such time as they have been away, despite the fact that they presented doctors’ certificates showing cause of absence.
  2. Even if the regulations call for stoppage of pay under such conditions, will not the Minister endeavour to have returned soldiers paid for the time they are away sick, seeing that in the majority of cases the sickness is the result of injuries incurred or sickness contracted while on active service.

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

  1. The Deputy Postmaster-General, Brisbane reports as follows: - “Only one case in which the employee was absent five days. He had been employed for one week only, and was consequently not eligible for leave with pay.”
  2. There is no authority at present to discriminate in the matter of sick leave between temporary employees, whether returned soldiers or not, but it is understood that the Acting Public Service Commissioner is now prescribing special terms upon which sick leave is to be granted to returned soldiers.

page 9936

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN IMPERIAL FORCE

Badges for Men Discharged before Embarkation.

Mr WISE:
NAT

– On the 11th December, the honorable member for Herbert (Mr. Bamford) asked whether men who had enlisted and were in camp when the armistice was completed will be presented with a badge or emblem of any kind in recognition of the services offered, or will action of any kind be taken in this regard ? I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

It has been decided to issue a badge to Australian Imperial Force recruits who were in camp in Australia when the armistice was signed, and also to those who had actually enlisted but had not been called into camp. This badge is not yet available, and will have to be specially manufactured.

page 9936

QUESTION

DARLINGHURST DETENTION BARRACKS

Appointments and Suspensions

Mr WISE:
NAT

– On the 17th December, the honorable member for Brisbane (Mr. Finlayson)asked thefollowing questions : -

  1. On what date was Lieutenant G. W. Rickwood appointed Officer Commanding, Darlinghurst Detention Barracks?
  2. What was his record of service in the Boer war and during the late European war?
  3. For what reason was Sergeant Simpson suspended from duty on 10th December?
  4. What is Sergeant Simpson’s record of military service?
  5. Why has Lieutenant Rickwood been called upon to resign, and on whose report?
  6. Of what nationality and religion is Lieutenant Rickwood?
  7. Has the suspension of Sergeant Simpson been removed, and is he to be continued in the employment of the Defence Department?
  8. What were the strength and classification of the staff at the Darlinghurst Detention Barracks prior to 12th December?

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

  1. 3rd June, 1918.
  2. Served with British Army in Boer war, and wears King’s and Queen’s Medals. Enlisted for present war 17th August, 1914, and was promoted to commissioned rank on the 28th April, 1915. Promoted to lieutenant 4th August, 1915, and appointment in Australian Imperial Force terminated 27th October, 1917.
  3. For disobeying a lawfulorder given by his commanding officer.
  4. Three years in the Garrison Military Police and three months in the German Concentration Camp guard.
  5. For failure to carry out instructions issued for the administration of Darlinghurst. He admitted this failure himself.
  6. English, and stated on his attestation paper to be Church of England.
  7. Sergeant Simpson has been reprimanded and returned to duty.
  8. One officer, two acting sergeants, five acting corporals, two lance-corporals, twenty-four privates.

page 9937

QUESTION

DEFENCE DEPARTMENT

London Pat Office

Mr WISE:
NAT

– On the 18th December, the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) asked the following questions : -

  1. What is the deficit unaccounted for at the Pay Office in London?
  2. Is it a fact that hundreds of Australian officers in England are heavily overdrawn, and that some Australian officers died before working out their overdrafts?

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

  1. There is no general “ deficit unaccounted for at the Pay Office in London.” If the word “ deficit “ used in this question refers to pay overdrawn the information can be given only after inquiry from London. Even in that case the figure will be rapidly changing, vide answer to next question.
  2. Many officers were overdrawn, some heavily overdrawn, and some died while their accounts were overdrawn, but as the result of special efforts in connexion with the reorganization of the Pay Office in July, 1916, overdrafts on officers’ accounts have now been recovered in practically all cases.

page 9937

QUESTION

SYDNEY QUARANTINE STATION

Case of Eather Peoples

Mr WISE:
NAT

– On the 12th December, the honorable member for Brisbane (Mr. Finlayson) asked the following questions : -

  1. Whether the Rev. Father Peoples, who was refused permission to visit a patient at the Sydney Quarantine Station, is identical With the Bev. Father Peoples who is Catholic chaplain to the Detention Barracks at Darlinghurst Gaol, Sydney.
  2. Is it a fact that for over seven months the Bev. Father Peoples was constantly refused permission to visit an Irishman named W. J. Fegan, of Brisbane, who is interned there?
  3. If so, why was this permission refused?
  4. Is it a fact that the Bev. Father Peoples holds the rank of captain in the Military Forces T

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

  1. It is believed this is so.
  2. No.
  3. Permission was at first refused through a misunderstanding. Fegan never asked to see Father Peoples.
  4. Father Peoples is- a temporary chaplain, 4th class, supernumerary to establishment, holding the relative rank of captain in the Australian Military Forces.

page 9937

QUESTION

BLACKBOY CAMP, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Pay of Recruits

Mr WISE:
NAT

– On the 17th December, the honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) asked the following questions : -

  1. Whether it is a fact that those who had enlisted for the Front, and who were in Blackboy Camp, Western Australia, last month, were ordered to hand in uniforms on the 18th November, received leave passes to 16th December, and were paid up to 1st December?
  2. Will the Minister favorably consider the request that these men be paid up to 16th December ?

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

  1. This is in accordance with instructions issued from Head-Quarters. All members of the Australian Imperial Force who were in camp in Australia on the signing of the armistice were granted fourteen days* leave on full pay, and advised to return to their civil occupations. At the expiration of the fourteen days they were granted leave without pay, pending discharge.
  2. It is not proposed to grant such soldiers more than fourteen days’ leave on full pay, as to do this would give them an advantage over soldiers who have returned to Australia after serving abroad.

page 9937

FILM CENSORS

Personnel and Pay

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– On the 19th inst., the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) asked -

  1. What are the names of the individual members of the Board of film censors in Victoria?
  2. Is Dr. Wollaston, who, upon reaching the age limit, retired from the Public Service on a pension, a member of the said Board?
  3. If so, and if it is to be a principle of administration of public affairs to appoint retired public servants in receipt of pensions to new positions, will the Minister, in future, so far as his Department is concerned, call for applications from retired pensioners for such positions?
  4. How much time (approximately) is spent daily by each member of the said Board in examining films for censoring purposes?
  5. What salary, allowances, or fees are paid to the members of the said Board and the officers associated therewith, and what salaries in any other Government position, if any, that they may hold?
  6. What amounts have been received to date by the respective members of the said Board and their officers as salary or fees for examining films for censoring purposes?

The answers to the questions are as follow : -

  1. Sir H. N. P. Wollaston, K.C.M.G.; Mr. Archibald T. Strong; Dr. J. H. L. Cumpston, Director of Quarantine.
  2. Yes.
  3. It is not considered that any principle of administration is involved in Dr. Wollaston’s appointment.
  4. Approximately five hours per day in Sydney. In Melbourne the time occupied varies considerably, and in accordance with the amount of work involved.
  5. Sir H. N. P. Wollaston, £100 per annum; Mr. A. T. Strong, £100 per annum; Dr. J. H.

    1. Cumpston, no special allowance paid; G. Black, M.L.C., and J. Brown, censors, £300 per annum each; A. R. Townsend, secretary, £270 per annum; clerk, £168 per annum; typiste, 8s.6d. per day; senior biograph operator, £5 per week; assistant biograph operator, £3 per week.
  6. Sir H. N. P. Wollaston, £18113s.10d.; Mr. A. T. Strong, £18113s.10d.; Mr. G. Black, £19611s.1d.; Mr. J. Brown, £21113s.11d.; Mr. A. R. Townsend, £464 6s.11d.; clerk, £28; typiste, £51; operators (two), £92 8s. 2d.

page 9938

QUESTION

RELEASE OF INTERNEES

Dr MALONEY:

– At the time of peace and kindliness which is approaching, will the Government consider the question of releasing those internees of descent from our late enemies against whom no absolutely criminal intent can be alleged; because, when a war is over, kindliness has a greater curative effect than sternness?

Mr.WATT. - As the honorable member himself distinguishes there are two classes of internees, the dangerous men and the men who look dangerous. The latter class were interned as a precautionary measure; the former class were interned because they jeopardized the safety of the country. The Minister has already exercised clemency in regard to internees of German descent who were born in Australia. After careful reinvestigation of the facts of their incarceration a number of them have already been released, but the safety of the public is the supreme law, and it is within the knowledge of the Government that certain classes of German people have been somewhat insolent since the armistice has been established. I do not know how general that has been - I am not in a position to say - but we must have regard to the safety of this community.

Mr Brennan:

– The question of insolence should not enter into the matter. The Government are not a Court of Petty Sessions that can fine people for having made use of insulting words.

Mr WATT:
NAT

– But the Government are judges as to whether it is safer to keep men interned or release them. When the Government deal with these cases there is no personal feeling about the matter, or any feeling other than a purely official one, but it is our responsibility to pay regard to the facts that come under our notice. Otherwise we should be unworthy of being intrusted with the responsibility attaching to our positions. It is our duty, while endeavouring to temper justice with mercy, to pay regard to the safety of the community. Within that limitation I shall see what can be done to accede to the honorable member’s request.

page 9938

QUESTION

GOLD STANDARD

Mr LECKIE:
INDI, VICTORIA

– In view of the great decline in gold-mining, and the necessity for encouraging mining operations, also in view of the report, which has a foundation of truth, that there has been a considerable appreciation in the value of gold in certain parts of the world, will the Treasurer see that any extra value which may be obtained for the gold produced in Australia shall go to the actual producers, and not to the Commonwealth or the financial institutions dealing with it?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The honorable member’s question opens up a very big vista. I presume that my friend is a student of the influence qf gold upon our currency, not only in regard to the past, or during the war, but also in regard to the future. The Commonwealth Government have practically commandeered all the gold of Australia during war time. It is only by that means that we have been able to serve the British interests, not the speculative, but the national, and keep our own reserve right. We still may have to keep a hold on gold in the interests of the solidity of our paper currency; but I am not sure as to that.

Mr Leckie:

– The honorable gentleman informed me that he had exported £26,000,000 worth of gold.

Mr WATT:

– No. I said that £26,000,000 worth of gold had been exported for the British Government - for British Government purposes, and not for speculative purposes. A microscopic portion, about £28,000 worth of gold, I believe, has been exported for sound private reasons; but the gold currency of tha Commonwealth and the raw gold of Australia have been placed at the service of the country and the Empire, and not at the service of any of the holders of it.

Mr Gregory:

– Would not the Commonwealth Government get the profit on the exchange?

Mr WATT:

– The exchange is quite microscopic. It is not that which the honorable member has in his mind, or which the gold producers have in mind.

Mr Gregory:

– As a Conference is to be held in January, I thought that the honorable gentleman might consider that aspect of the question.

Mr WATT:

– I do not wish to get off the track. It is alleged that there is an appreciation in the value of gold in some portions of the world, some of them enemy portions, and some of them doubtful neutral portions, but we shall not allow our gold to drift there. The suggestion was made to me yesterday by the Chamber of Mines in Victoria, apparently speaking with the knowledge of some of the other Chambers of Mines, that the offer of 5s. per standard ounce in excess of the standard price, which the British

Government is supposed to have made to the Empire, should not be accepted, because it was not liberal enough. I was also asked not to permit any sale of Australian gold to the British Government, unless it appreciated to a higher figure. It is a matter that requires careful consideration. We have no desire to depress the gold-mining industry. Therefore, I am studying the matter with great care, and I shall not come to a decision upon my own judgment, but will accept the highest advice that can be obtained upon the subject.

ADJOURNMENT (Formal).

Quarantine Conditions, Fremantle.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon W Elliot Johnson:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– The honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) has intimated that he desires to move the adjournment of the House to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, viz., “The quarantine conditions at Fremantle.”

Five honorable members having risen in their places,

Question proposed.

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

.- I would not have taken this step had it not been for certain information which was conveyed to me from Western Australia yesterday evening. Deplorable conditions have existed at Fremantle during the last three or four weeks. It would seem that some one has been exceedingly callous in regard to the welfare of our returning soldiers. I understand that, on armistice day, one man lost his life through being drowned in an endeavour to get away from a troopship at Fremantle, and that a large body of soldiers, either through force, or because they had cajoled the guard, was able to get away from a vessel, and go into the city. The Acting Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Greene), who is in charge of quarantine matters, will probably tell us that, by this time, . the difficulties have been fairly well overcome. He may also tell us that, in the future, it is very unlikely that boats will put into Fremantle with influenza cases on board. However, as there may be instances of such vessels arriving there, provision should be made by the Quarantine Department to see that our boys are treated in a much more satisfactory way than they have been treated during the last two or three weeks. There are two islands off Fremantle. One of them, Garden Island, was resumed for quarantine purposes some time ago. It has a very fine bay, Careening Bay, where, at a very small expenditure, a suitable jetty could be erected. In fact, there are no difficulties so far as harbor facilities are concerned. The island is an ideal place for landing influenza contacts from troopships. They could have a few days’ fishing and bathing there in glorious surroundings. The water difficulty could be easily overcome; launches could take supplies from the mainland sufficient for a few hundred ‘men. The other island, Rottnest, is also most suitable for this purpose. Month after month in the old days I used to take a cottage there for my family. There is ample fishing at Rottnest, and the battling spots are excellent. If it is necessary to retain returning soldiers at Fremantle for three or four days, it is not fair to keep them cooped up on board a vessel on which they have already spent a considerable time, especially as they “had probably not been permitted to leave the boat during the whole of the voyage out. It is scandalous that our boys should be ‘treated in this way, .particularly during the summer months, at Fremantle. There is too much officialdom about the arrangements; too much callousness appears to have been displayed. I- was in Perth when the troopship Barambah passed through on its way to Great Britain with reinforcements, and, although the troops had been nearly eight days on the voyage from Melbourne on that very stuffy boat, they were not permitted to land at Fremantle, probably because they would have caused too much trouble to the Defence authorities.’ The vessel was afterwards seventy-five or seventy-six days on the voyage from Fremantle to England. Our soldiers have to spend long periods on these transports. The journey may be shorter in the future, now that the Suez canal route is open, but there may be a possibility of other diseases being contracted on the new route. We may have a troopship coming back with oases of small-pox son board. The quarantine station at Fremantle is situated among a lot of wretched sand-dunes, a most inhospitable site in the summer months. From what I can gather from the newspapers, the State Government would be only too pleased to provide the Commonwealth authorities with every facility at Rottnest Island. There are plenty of cottages there for accommodating soldiers. I would like the Minister (Mr. Greene) to go into the matter himself. He ought to visit Fremantle. No matter what Government is in power, I shall do all that I can to see that when our boys return they are well looked after. From what I can see, the Defence Department has not displayed any particular interest in what has happened to them on their way to the Front, and during the past three or four weeks the returning men who have been on troopships which have called in at Fremantle have not been treated in a way which is at all creditable to any of the Departments concerned. I hope that the Minister will insist on going into these matters himself, and on seeing that, when a transport returns from the Old Country with disease on board, the men will not be cooped up on the vessel, but will have a chance of landing in some place where there will be no chance of them endangering the health of the community.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– So far from being callous in regard to the conditions applying to the men on these troopships, I can assure the honorable member that every action taken by the Quarantine Department, up to the present time, has been in what we believe to be the very best interests of the men themselves. The Government have a double duty in this matter, not merely a duty to the men who are returning, but also the very serious responsibility of protecting the people of this country from the invasion of any serious disease. During this influenza outbreak that responsibility has not been a light one. On the other hand, it has been a very grave one, and we are entitled to consideration from the public generally. We are entitled to be protected to some extent by honorable members from the extreme statements that are made from time to time in regard to quarantine matters. During the last few days we have seen repeated statements in the press. For instance, it has been said that the Department kept these men on a plagueinfected ship. It was referred to as “ The Black Hole of Calcutta,” and similar statements were made. The facts are that two days before the vessel arrived on the coast Ave were advised that there were 150 cases of influenza on board. Every preparation was made to deal with the outbreak the moment the vessel reached Fremantle. On the arrival of the boat we found that there were nearly 400 cases on board, showing that while the vessel was at sea, and before it came under the control of the quarantine authorities, the disease was spreading like wildfire through the ship. We removed all the cases from the vessel, and proper measures were taken immediately to bring the disease under control on the ship. The result was that, on the first day after the 150 cases had been landed, there were only eight additional cases ; on the second day, six cases ; on the third day, two cases ; and on the fourth day, one case; and yesterday there were no cases. This proves that the steps taken by the authorities were effective in stamping out the disease on the vessel. The essential duty of the Quarantine Department is to try to stamp out the disease in the shortest possible time. That is a grave duty which we owe, not merely to the men on board, but also to the people. The steps we have taken have been effective in discharging that duty. The whole trouble has been as to whether we should keep the men on board or land them on Garden Island or on Rottnest Island. For many reasons, Garden Island is out of the question.

Mr Gregory:

– Why?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

-There is no accommodation on Garden Island such as there is on Rottnest Island;, and it would have been extremely difficult to organize arrangements for the reception of the men in the time available. Had we landed them on Rottnest Island, which was a possibility, we should have had no compound of reasonable size in which they could have been confined, and the men would have been able to wander all over the island.

Mr Gregory:

– There is one compound there.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is not one that we could effectively guard. In order to stamp out the disease it is necessary to examine every man daily and remove every infected person at once. If the men had been lauded on Rottnest Island, we could not have done that. The honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. McGrath) and others who have had close association with the soldiers will know that the moment they were landed they would have wandered all over the island. There would have been the greatest difficulty in rounding them up for medical supervision. We could not have maintained that close supervision of the men which is essential.

Dr Maloney:

– I do not understand that.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member must know that, if men were allowed to wander all over a fairly large island, they could not be closely supervised. That is why the quarantine authorities have tried to clean up the disease on the ship.

Mr Gregory:

– If there were 500 men on the vessel, of whom 150 contracted the disease and were taken ashore, would the Minister keep the other 350 on board in order to clean up the disease, or would he place them on an island?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– If we had the facilities for close supervision, I would put them on the island every time. I promise the honorable member that I shall personally look into this matter, and ascertain whether it is possible for the Commonwealth, by arrangement with the State Government, to take over the control of Rottnest Island entirely.

Mr Gregory:

– I wish the Minister would visit Western Australia.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I may. not be able to go immediately, but I shall try to do so before long. Of course, in the event of any ship arriving with influenza cases, we should have to clear all residents off the island before putting the men ashore.

We shall inquire whether isolated quarters can be provided, and what expense will be involved. If the use of the island is practicable I shall ask the Cabinet to approve of any expenditure that is involved. If it is at all possible to land the men on the island we shall do so, but the Government would have made a very grave mistake in attempting to land men from the Boonah before proper conveniences had been provided for the supervision of the men. In all probability had we done that, instead of having a clean ship to-day and themen practically on the way to their homes, the outbreak would not have been checked, and it might have been many a long day before the men ceased to be contacts.

Mr Fenton:

– Have there been any fatal cases?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Not amongst the men who were taken off after the vessel arrived. Deaths have occurred among the men who were sick at the time of their arrival at Fremantle.

Mr Falkiner:

– Do the Minister’s medical advisers consider that seven days is a sufficient period of detention? In Sydney, the other day, a man who had been released was taken ill and was promptly taken back to a military hospital. There seems to be a possibility of the disease being latent, and developing after seven days.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That is a question which I, as a layman, am not prepared to answer without having first consulted my expert advisers. The period laid down in the regulations is considered to be safe. We have done in Western Australia the same as we havedone with every other infected ship that has arrived, and we have been thoroughly successful in cleaning out the disease. That is an important consideration from the public point of view. By keeping the men on the vessel and not putting them ashore until such time as we have proper means of supervision, we are doing what is best in the interests of the men themselves. The Boonah, in respect of which all the trouble has occurred, was due to leave Fremantle for Albany at noon to day. If we had taken the step which was urged upon us by a number of people in Western Australia, and by several mem bers in this House, probably we could not have completed arrangements by today to clear Rottnest Island of civilians and arrange for the reception of the Boonah’ s passengers.

Mr Gregory:

– I would not care so long as a life was saved.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– We have saved lives.

Mr Falkiner:

– Lives are safer under the control of the Department’s medical officers than they would be under the control of politicians.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– By keeping the men under the closest possible supervision and removing any who show a rise in temperature, we have reduced the disease to a minimum and thus saved lives. I know that discomfort is imposed upon the men on board, but having regard to all the circumstances our policy has been in the best interests of the men, and they will reach their homes much sooner than if any other course had been taken. We shall inquire into the whole question of quarantine provision in Western Australia, and if there is any reasonable course we can take in order that the period of detention may be less irksome in future we shall attend to it.

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

– I am disappointed with the answer given by the Minister. With the sole intention of helping the Department, I yesterday asked the Minister several questions, which he seems to have sidestepped. I had been waited upon by a deputation of soldiers on behalf of the unfortunate men who are detained on the Boonah at Fremantle, and I asked the Minister -

As one who knows the splendid situation of the Quanantine Station at Albany, I ask the Acting Minister for Trade and Customs whether, in view of the terrible experiences our returned soldiers have to undergo on the transports, as clearly explained in this House, he will give instructions at once to take all the unfortunate men off the transports at Fremantle, and have them landed at Rottnest Island or sent to the Quarantine Ground at Albany?

To that the Minister replied -

The Quarantine Station at Albany is now being utilized. There is a full ship’s company there. Another boat, the Marathon, is to arrive in Fremantle to-morrow morning, and she will proceed to Albany and clear up her troops there. The Albany Quarantine Station is being used to its full extent.

I have had experience of quarantine that no other honorable member has had. I was quarantined in Sydney, and the authorities tried to quarantine me in Melbourne.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I have been quarantined in Melbourne.

Mr McGrath:

– But not as a private in the Army.

Dr MALONEY:

– And not on the third deck. There is a second deck and a third deck on the transports, and it was the infamy of confining men on the third deck to which I directed the attention of the Minister. But the Minister sidestepped the question.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I said I would make immediate inquiries.

Dr MALONEY:

– The Minister said not a word about removing the men from these dungeons. When I asked if the men might be allowed the use of the top deck he evaded that question.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I promised to make inquiries.

Dr MALONEY:

– I asked the Minister yesterday if the soldiers on the quarantined transport at Fremantle would be allowed the use of the upper deck space, and be given as good accommodation as is provided for the officers.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That is a question I cannot answer without making inquiries. I shall make inquiries and let the honorable member know.

Dr MALONEY:

-I then asked-

Will the Minister give a direction that the soldiers are to have a chance of using the best deck?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I have already informed the honorable member I will make inquiries.

If that is not side-stepping, I do not know what is. I accuse the Minister of being callous.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I cannot give directions in regard to a matter that is under the control of another Minister.

Dr MALONEY:

– We cannot do a lot of things when we do not want to do them. I asked the Minister whether, in view of the terrible death-rate in this disease, he would ask the Cabinet, if he could not do it himself, to request every medical man in Australia to place himself at the disposal of the Government, so that all the doctors could be organized should the disease pass the quarantine barriers. What is keeping this disease out of Australia at the present time? If the Minister has not visited the Sydney quarantine grounds, he should go there. A galvanized-iron fence is the only barrier between the station and Manly. I have been in quarantine at the station, and know that children were being sent to school during an outbreak of the dire disease of small-pox, although they were mixing with men and women who were contacts.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That has nothing to do with the particular matter under discussion.

Dr MALONEY:

– From my point of view it has a considerable bearing on it. Why did I urge the use of the quarantine station at Albany ? It is because in the summer time - every Western Australian representative will bear me out in this - Albany is a most healthy resort. I know the quarantine grounds there very well. The station at Fremantle is situated on hot sandhills, and, at the present time, they are very hot. I could give the names of no fewer than five medical men in Perth who agree with me that Rottnest would be almost ideal for a quarantine station. Auckland, in New Zealand, lost 5,000 lives during the recent influenza epidemic. In view of that calamity, why should we consider the cost of removing the few inhabitants of Rottnest to some other place, to make the island available for quarantine purposes. If force were necessary to effect our ends we could use the War Precautions Act. There is splendid fishing off Rottnest, and magnificent bathing, and the island is a healthy place. Had the present inhabitants been turned out, there would have been plenty of vacant accommodation, and any more that was required could have been provided by the erection of tents, which are very suitable for the use of sick persons. It would be impossible for any one to escape from Rottnest by swimming. Why should not men who are returning to Australia as comrades-in-arms not mingle together ? Why should the decks be given up to a few, and, the rest, including sick men, be thrust down into dungeons ? The death-rate in New Zealand during the influenza epidemic has been eight times greater than that among our soldiers at the front. I asked to-day if the Government had any information as to the position in the “United States of America. A member of this House has seen a letter, in which it is stated that in San Francisco every one has to wear a mask, and is liable to the penalty, not only of a fine, but also of imprisonment, for neglecting to do so. Schools, theatres, and churches are closed. If the Minister wishes to go to Western Australia, the honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) will be glad to accompany him, and I would be glad to do so, if he could put up with my unpleasant presence.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– You are not too bad sometimes.

Dr MALONEY:

– If the Minister thinks that, I must adopt the mav iter in modo in reminding him that every vessel after a long voyage with crowded passenger accommodation is troubled with vermin, but these can be exterminated, as Professor Love, of London, has shown, by opening the hatches and pouring concentrated and condensed carbolic acid gas into the holds. The gas, as it rises, kills every living thing coming within its influence. If my manner in asking my question offended the Minister, it was not meant to do so. We both wish to keep disease out of our beloved Australia. I ask the honorable gentleman, therefore, not to regard anything I have said as personal. I addressed bini mainly in the hope of helping him in this matter.

Mr McGRATH:
Ballarat

We, in Australia, should congratulate ourselves that we have prevented the spread of this disease beyond the quarantine stations. The Quarantine Department has done splendid work in achieving this. I do not intend to criticise that Department, but I wish to say one or two things in the hope of inducing the military to take action. As a private, I know what life on board a vessel is for the rank and file. When I was travelling, as a private meningitis broke out, and on two occasions I was a contact. I have seen men forced to live in places beyond description. It was impossible to prevent this, because’ we were at sea. The case of our transports is different. The lads who are arriving by them have been nine or ten weeks on the ocean, and have not had a pleasant voyage. The military like to exercise control as much as possible, and it would take a very strong Minister for Defence to bring it about that the men should be allowed on the deck used by the officers. There is no greater crime than for privates and non-commissioned officers on board ship to breathe the same air as the officers, who are supposed to be of different clay. The lads resent this distinction keenly. A compound could be erected at Rottnest within two days, and the lads could be given freedom to roam about the island as they liked. After eight or ten weeks on board ship they naturally wish to get on land again, and I do not see anything to prevent my. suggestion from being carried out. I would not make it if I thought that its adoption would increase the danger of the disease getting into Australia. Private persons who may be living on Rottnest now could be removed. Surely after three or four years’ military service our lads deserve some consideration. What are the military doing in connexion with their food supply ? I have seen the diary of a lad who was on board the Medic, and I know that his account of the conditions, though awful to read, is true, because I have seen such conditions myself. All the luxuries that Australia can command should be sent to the quarantined vessels; fresh food, lemon peel, raisins, currants, and similar things, which are practically unobtainable in Great Britain. The lads should be given every comfort. I am not a medical man, but I know that good work has been done in preventing the dis- . ease from getting into Australia. If the military authorities cannot put the healthy men who are on the transports on land they should at least let them use every deck of the vessel on which they are travelling. It must be borne in mind that ours is a volunteer army, composed, not of persons of disgraceful antecedents, but of men, many of whom, intellectually and socially, are the equal of their colonels. I hope that the Government will show its interest in the lads and see that they are properly looked after.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I congratulate the Quarantine Department on having successfully grappled with the influenza epidemic. Having travelled steerage on ocean-going vessels across the Atlantic, I know what it is to be cooped up on board ship. During the war, big things have been done so quickly that it seems to me that there should be no difficulty about taking over Rottnest for quarantine purposes. The matter was under discussion when Iwas in the Customs Department. Those living there now could be removed, and a compound could be erected for the accommodation of soldiers, who could be allowed to roam in freedom about the island. Those who, after a long voyage, have found themselves detained on board ship when she has been anchored in port, know how tedious the experience is. Such a detention, though lasting perhaps only a few hours, seems longer than a week at sea. The officers and soldiers on board the transports in quarantine should be looked upon as in a situation analagous to that of first, second, and third class passengers during a shipwreck, when there is no talk of any one class getting to the boats first. All should have the free run of the ship. The men should not be cooped up like steerage passengers. A few pounds of raisins and similar delicacies would be greatly appreciated by them. Within a few weeks, apples ought to be available.

Mr Fowler:

– The public of Western Australia has been sending large quantities of fruit to the transports. The men on board are being well looked after in that respect.

Mr TUDOR:

– I am delighted to hear it; but it should be the duty of the Department to make proper provision for feeding the men; the Department should not depend on the good-will of the public. Certain hardships are unavoidable in connexion with quarantine, but they should be made as little as possible. By smoothing things the Department will add to the laurels it has won by keeping the influenza epidemic at bay.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– By way of personal explanation, I wish to say that if, when the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) was speaking, I showed a little heat, I regret it. I wish also to acknowledge the tremendous assistance that I have received from the Western Australian members, and particularly from the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Fowler). I omitted to mention the matter when making my speech. The honorable member has been of great assistance to me in dealing with the difficulties that have been caused by the influenza outbreak in Western Australia.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– I am pleased with the success of the efforts of the authorities to keep the disease out of Australia. I am proud of the work done by the Quarantine Department, and for that reason I should like, if possible, to have the control of returned soldiers arriving here on infected ships transferred from the military to the quarantine authorities. If that were done, the position of these men would be much improved. After a long voyage people are always anxious to get on shore. We must not forget that our soldiers have been away for years, and that on the voyage out here they have the same old “ stew “ - the same old military meals - served up to them. They are naturally anxious, therefore, to get clear of the ship as soon as possible. In every other country ravages of Spanish influenza have been wide-spread. I believe that in the military camps of the United States of America there have been some 20,000 victims of the disease. We have reason, therefore, to be grateful for the work that has been done in keeping it away from Australia. In their anxiety to rejoin their friends, soldiers might be apt to forget that if they were released too soon the consequence to their friends, and to the whole community, might be disastrous. We should, however, make the conditions of life in quarantine as comfortable as possible for them. There have been many unreasonable complaints no doubt, but if these men were removed from strict military discipline, and military conditions as to food supplies, while in quarantine, there would be much less trouble. If the occupation ofRottnest by a few people renders it impossible to use that island for the accommodation of these men, we should clear out those people as quickly as possible. I have no doubt that arrangements could be made for the treatment of returned soldiers on Rottnest Island just as effectively as they can be dealt with on board ship. It might cost money to make the necessary provision for their reception on the island, but something in that direction should be done. I have no desire to harass the Minister, but we must do everything possible to avoid any cause for the continuance of these complaints. Parliament will be shutting down to-day, and we must throw upon the Government, therefore, the responsibility for taking the steps necessary to stop all murmurs of discontent by showing that the Quarantine Department is doing its best for the men, and taking all the precautions necessary for the protection of the whole community.

Mr FOWLER:
Perth

.- The Minister has been good enough to mention my name in connexion with the efforts that have been made to keep out of Australia this fell disease. Never in the whole of my political career have I had such a sense of responsibility as I have had in regard to this matter, and that feeling has been shared, no doubt, in a much higher degree by the Minister and the Director of Quarantine. I felt in a very difficult position in regard to the threat of the disease entering Australia. The Director of Quarantine is eminent in his profession, and whilst I certainly put before the Minister and the Director the representations of certain citizens of Western Australia, that changes should be made in the arrangements, I recognised that Dr. Cumpston probably knew mo re than I did as to the proper methods of treatment, and I was, therefore, somewhat on the horns of a dilemma. It would have been a fearful responsibility had the acceptance of representations made in certain direction as to the relaxation of the arrangements made by the Director of Quarantine resulted in the introduction of the disease into the Commonwealth. It was in my own humble opinion much better that there should be a little undue stringency rather than an undue relaxation; it was better to err on the right side. If the Director’s measures to cope with this disease have been successful, as I trust they have, then certainly his actions have been fully justified. Had the disease gained a footing in Australia it would have caused our losses on the battlefields to sink relatively into insignificance. Had I been on board one of those quarantined vessels, with a knowledge of what the position was, I think I should have said, “ It is better for me to endure a few days’ privation on this ship than run the risk of introducing the disease into Australia, and, perhaps, amongst my own near and dear relatives.” I hope that the efforts of the Director of Quarantine and the Minister in charge will be continued with the same fortunate results as hitherto in regard to the exclusion of the disease from Australia.

Question resolved in the negative.

page 9946

CONCILIATION AND ARBITRATION BILL (No. 2)

Second Reading

Debate resumed from 17th December (vide page 9442), on motion by Mr. Groom -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I understand that the object of this Bill is to put the law where it was believed to be prior to the decision of the High Court in what is known as the Waterside Workers’ case, on a reference arising out of proceedings brought by the Daily News Company of Western Australia. The Court was asked to determine three points as to the constitutionality of the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Court. It was asked-

Is the Constitution of the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration beyond the powers of the Parliament of the Commonwealth, and in particular as to (a) the arbitral provision, (b) the enforcing provisions? To that question the answer was (a) No; (b) Yes.

In other words, the High Court held that the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Court had full arbitral power, but had no power to enforce its awards.

Mr Groom:

– Generally speaking, the majority of the Full Court decided in favour of the arbitral power of the Court, but declared that it had not the power of enforcement.

Mr TUDOR:

– Quite so. The Court was further asked -

Is the award invalid by reason of the appointment of the President for seven years only?

The answer to that was “ No “ ; and the Court also answered in the negative the third inquiry, “ Is the award enforcable by the said Court?” The Chief Justice said that the Conciliation and Arbitration Court- was invested with ample and complete jurisdiction to declare and enforce the mutual obligations of the parties. The exercise of the power to impose penalties was admittedly an exercise of the judicial power. If the Court had not the power to impose penalties, then that power would be non-existent elsewhere.

If that Court could not enforce its awards, it seems to me a sound position to take up that no other Court could do so. If the Conciliation and Arbitration Court has no power to enforce its awards, however, we might as well have no such tribunal.

Under this Bill it is proposed to give the Governor-General power to appoint any Justice of the High Court to be President of the Conciliation and Arbitration Court. At the present time the President of the Court can depute other Justices of the High Court to act for him, to take evidence, and to make awards. The powers of the President’s deputies are as wide as his own.

Mr Groom:

– Yes, so far as they are delegated to the deputies, but under this amendment, instead of leaving that power of delegation to the President, we give it to the Governor-General.

Mr TUDOR:

– It is proposed to amend section 44 of the principal Act by striking out the provision that penalties for breaches “ may be imposed by any Court of summary jurisdiction constituted by a police, stipendiary, or special magistrate,” and to insert instead, “ may be imposed by any District, County, or local Court, or Court of summary jurisdiction.” It was held by the High Court, and also by Mr. Justice Higgins, that the Arbitration Court ought itself to have the power to impose penalties in the same way as County Courts and other Courts; and in Committee an amendment to that end ought to be inserted. Otherwise, there may be varying decisions all over the Commonwealth, whereas uniformity is necessary if we are to avoid industrial trouble. Local justices of the peace may be interested in the particular businesses affected; and it is quite possible, for instance, that there might be different decisions at Footscray and Port Melbourne in connexion with the wheat stackers. If an amendment of this kind is made, I have no objection to the Bill.

As to the validity of the decisions of Mr. Justice Isaacs, Mr. Justice Powers, and Mr. Justice Rich, as Deputy Presidents of the Arbitration Court, if that is not upheld, industrial chaos will result throughout the country. I am, as I have said, a believer in arbitration, and in the peaceful settlements of disputes, as contrasted with the force of starvation on the one side, and the force of numbers on the other. It would have been a national calamity had the High Court arrived at any other conclusion than that the decisions of the Deputy Presidents are as binding as those of the President.

Mr Groom:

– The question of their validity has not yet been decided.

Mr TUDOR:

– If the decision upsets the awards of the Deputy Presidents, it will, as I have said, mean industrial chaos. I do not know when it is intended to call Parliament together again, but if the Deputy President’s decisions are proved to be invalid, my advice to the Government is that they should bring in a validating measure at the earliest opportunity.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause 3 -

Section forty-four of the principal Act is amended by omitting sub-section (1), and inserting in its stead the following subsection: - “ (1.) Where any organization or person bound by an order or award has committed any breach or non-observance of any term of the order or award, a penalty not exceeding …. may be imposed by any District, County, or local Court, or Court of summary jurisdiction, which is constituted by a Judge or a police, stipendiary, or special magistrate, or by any Court specified in that behalf by proclamation.”

Section proposed tobe amended - 44 - (1.)Where any organisation or per son bound by an order or award has committed any breach or non-observance of any term of the order or award, any penalties which the Court has power to impose may be imposed by any Court of summary jurisdiction constituted by a police, stipendiary, or special magistrate…..

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I move -

That after the word “ by,” line 9, the words “ a Justice of the High Court “ be inserted.

Mr Groom:

– I cannot accept that amendment.

Mr TUDOR:

– The Minister will admit that the seven Judges of the High Court held that there was no constitutional difficulty in the way of Parliament conferring on the Arbitration Court, or the High Court, the same power to impose penalties, and enforce their decisions, as is exercised by other Courts. As I have already pointed out, we may otherwise have varying decisions all over the country. I do not contend that the same conditions of employment should prevail in Hobart as in Cairns, but the Court should at least have the power to enforce its own decisions.

Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.

Mr CONSIDINE:
Barrier

.- If industrial arbitration is to be effective the Arbitration Court should have power to enforce its own awards. I do not attach a great deal of importance to the arbitration system from a worker’s stand-point; in fact, I believe that the existing system is quite wrong, but if honorable members were actuated by a desire to break it down, they could not go about doing it in a more effective way than by allowing police magistrates in local Courts to adjudicate upon actions for the recovery of penalties for breaches of awards.

Mr Sampson:

– The only question a police magistrate will have to decide is whether there has been a breach of an award.

Mr CONSIDINE:

– Workers will repose less confidence in local magistrates who may be the friends, personally or socially, of an employer, whose default they are asked to adjudicate upon. For instance, in Broken Hill suspicion would be roused among the workers if their cases for breaches of awards were to be heard by local magistrates, who may be members of the social clubs to which the mine managers belong. Suspicion once generated in the minds of the workers will have a detrimental effect locally on industrial peace, and if that suspicion spreads through the country, it will eventually lead to the complete break-down of the arbitration system.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– If the amendment moved by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Tudor) were agreed to, would not all the parties be obliged to approach the High Court in order to obtain redress in cases of breaches of awards?

Mr CONSIDINE:

– They would have the option of taking their cases before local Courts. The effect of the amendment is merely to give power to the President of the Arbitration Court to enforce his awards by reason of the fact that he is a Justice of the High Court. Of course, I can quite understand that if the parties are empowered to bring their cases before the Arbitration Court, they will not make much use of the other tribunals mentioned in the Bill - County Courts, District Courts, and local Courts. I support the amendment in the interests of good government, which cannot exist when there is industrial turmoil. If there is a genuine desire to continue working as amicably as is possible under the existing economic circumstances, the Government would be wise to accept the amendment. It merely gives to a Justice of the High Court the power which the clause proposes to give to magistrates in local Courts. If we would seek to maintain our arbitration system, we should do our best to facilitate procedure under it instead of creating the suspicion in the minds of the workers that they are not getting a fair deal, which may eventually lead to the complete break-down of the arbitration system. As a whole, the workers of Australia are not too keen on the arbitration system. The Government are proceeding in the right way to confirm in the. minds of the workers the suspicion that the whole machinery of government is organized in order to deny justice to them. I assure the Acting Attorney-General that officials representing very large bodies of organized labour have, within the last few days, told me that that suspicion exists. Rightly or wrongly, they believe that, they will not get as square a deal from the local Court as they will from a Justice of the High Court.

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways and Acting Attorney-General · Darling Downs · NAT

– This provision regarding the jurisdiction of local magistrates has always been part of the arbitration law of the Commonwealth, but because a judgment of the High Court raised doubt regarding the capacity of the police or stipendiary or special magistrate to impose any penalty for a breach of an award under this section, this Bill is introduced to remove that doubt. Mr. Justice Powers said, “ The omission of the words in question would clear away any doubt.” The words in question were, “any penalties which the Court has power to impose,” and, as the High Court held that -the Arbitration Court has no power to impose penalties, those words might imply that neither has a magistrate that power. The Bill will place beyond, doubt the authority of a police, stipendiary, or special magistrate to impose penalties for breaches of an award.

Mr Considine:

– Why is not that power given to the Arbitration Court?

Mr GROOM:

– The High Court has upheld the arbitral powers of the Act for the settlement of any industrial dispute, but has declared that the Court has no power to enforce awards.

Mr Considine:

– If the Minister would accept the amendment he would give to the Arbitration Court the same power as is to be” given to the other Courts.

Mr GROOM:

– I cannot accept it.

Mr Brennan:

– Was the decision bf the High Court based on constitutional grounds or merely on the terms of the Act?

Mr GROOM:

– It was based on both the Constitution and the Act.

Mr Brennan:

– The existing arbitration law was really altered by that decision. The view which Parliament held regarding the enforcing powers of the Arbitration Court was swept aside.

Mr GROOM:

– That is so.

Mr Brennan:

– And the Government do not propose to vary the principle established by that decision.

Mr GROOM:

– We accept the decision of the High Court that, although the Court has arbitral functions, there is no power vested) in the Court to enforce awards, and therefore the judicial power to enforce must be vested in a Federal or State Court recognised by the Constitution.

Mr Brennan:

– What the honorable member for Barrier (Mr. Considine) desired to know was whether the omission to remedy the position disclosed by the High Court’s decision is an oversight or the deliberate policy of the Government.

Mr Tudor:

– This Parliament could give the Arbitration Court enforcing powers if it so desired.

Mr GROOM:

– J think it could grant power to the High Court.

Mr Fenton:

– Then let us do it.

Mr GROOM:

– I do not think we should. This is merely a temporary measure providing means of enforcing awards, so that when any decision of the Arbitration Court has been flouted, penalties maybe imposed upon the offending party.

Mr Tudor:

– Why not give the’ Federal Arbitration Court the power which is given to the smallest Court in the country ?

Mr GROOM:

– My opinion is that the Arbitration Court’s functions are arbitral, and that it ought not to be asked to do the policing or enforcing of awards by way of penalties.

Mr Tudor:

Mr. Justice Powers said that the awards could be enforced by the State Courts, and that Parliament could give power of enforcement to the High Court.

Mr GROOM:

– According to the terms of the Constitution, in order to constitute ari Arbitration Court with judicial power, we “would require to create a Federal Court and give a life tenure to the President; but that would be contrary to the general principles of tenure which ‘Parliament placed in the original Act. We wish to avoid those issues in this tempers ry measure introduced for a specific purpose. The whole question of arbitration law will of necessity be reviewed at a later stage.

Mr SPENCE:
Darwin

– I did pot hear the Minister’s speech in introducing the Bill, but the explanation he has just given enables me to understand some of the difficulties. Perhaps it is easier to point out what amendment is desirable than it is to give effect to it, owing to the fact that the President of the Arbitration Court is not permanently appointed. Ever since 1894 the Australian Workers Union has stuck to the arbitration principle, and, of course, has brought numerous instances of breaches of awards before the Courts, and applied for the imposition of penalties in regard to them. It is clear that the time of the Arbitration Court should not be occupied with these small matters, which can very well be referred to other Courts. But there often arise doubts as to the precise meaning of awards, and cases occur in regard to which an ordinary magistrate is not competent to decide whether there has been a breach of an award.

Mr Groom:

– The parties can always go to the Court for an interpretation.

Mr SPENCE:

– What is needed is some ready means of getting interpretations. A clear breach of an award is an offence against the law with which any ‘Court would be competent to deal, but there are breaches which are not deliberate. Sometimes a person who makes them believes himself to be within his rights, and, occasionally, he is supported by legal opinion. Such cases must be dealt with by a Court that is competent to state the law. We do not want what are practically Police Court cases taken before the Arbitration Court, but there should be an easy means by which either party could obtain from the Court an interpretation of the law. I am doubtful whether the Bill covers the whole field, and I ask the Minister to consider the possibility of introducing a provision for the quicker settle- ment of disputes than is at present possible. Many cases arise in which it is necessary to establish what the law is, but the more we can avoid costly litigation the better. Many disputes in connexion with awards occur in the back country, hundreds of miles from the capitals, and it is often necessary to send barristers there to conduct the cases of the employees, because the local lawyers have been engaged by the employers. This is costly enough; but, in addition, there is often the expense of going from a lower to a higher Court. In my opinion, we would do well to increase the number of Courts that may impose penalties for breaches of an award. In the old days a local magistrate’s Court was occasionally somewhat under the influence of the big man of the place. But kings are fast disappearing in all walks of life, and I think that the Police Courts could well be intrusted with many small matters arising out of breaches of awards. We might well have a promise from the Minister, however, that at a later stage our arbitration system will be fully considered. I understand that that is contemplated by the Government.

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

.- The clause deals with something incidental to a recent decision of the High Court. It does not affect or vary any principle laid down by that decision. To that extent, we can welcome the resolution of a doubt that arose as the result of that decision whether power resides in any Court to impose penalties fixed by the arbitral authority. One cannot take exception to this clause, because it makes clearer the power of subordinate tribunals to impose penalties, and extends that power to a Court which hitherto has not possessed it. The contention of the honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Tudor), which was supported by the honorable member for Barrier (Mr. Considine), nevertheless remains unanswered by the Government. Why have they not sought by this Bill, if they claim to have the constitutional power, to give to .the Arbitration Court the power to impose penalties which for a number of years we all believed that it possessed? If by Act of Parliament the President of the High. Court can he given the power which, prior to the decision to which I have referred, he was thought to have, I cannot see any reason for not doing so. The Minister has pointed out that where there is doubt as to the interpretation of an award, it is proper for the President to resolve it. But, apparently, what is contemplated is that action should be taken to obtain from the President an interpretation of an award, and that fresh proceedings should follow to induce another tribunal to impose a penalty for a breach of the law. That is a duplication of legal process which I am sure the honorable member for Darwin (Mr. Spence) would not desire. The Government introduced the Bill with a kind of apology, and the Minister made it clear that it was not intended to enter upon the field of debatable principle. The honorable gentleman, however, did not state a sufficient reason for not giving to the President of the Arbitration Court, who is the person making the award, and by training and capacity is eminently fitted to enforce it, the power to enforce it. The honorable gentleman stated that he believed that this Parliament has the constitutional right to invest the President of the Arbitration Court with penal power, and the decision of the High Court is not contrary to that opinion. I shall support the amendment of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Tudor). It merely brings back the law to the state in which it was believed to be before the High Court gave its recent decision. We ask no more than that. Had not the second reading been passed so quickly, I should have liked to say a word or two on the subject of arbitration generally; but that can hardly be done on a clause of this character. This provision, however, and the difficulties which it indicates, serve to illustrate the disadvantages under which this Parliament and the country labours because we have not wider and more certain powers of legislation in respect of conciliation and arbitration.

Question - That the words proposed to be inserted be so inserted - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 9

NOES: 25

Majority . . . . 16

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Groom) proposed -

That after the word “any”, line 13, the word “ State “ be inserted.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- Under this amendment, will it be possible for any local Court consisting of justices of the peace to deal with any complaint as to the non-observance of an award? If, for instance, there was a breach of an Australian Workers Union award in connexion with the fruit industry at, say, Doncaster, Victoria, would a bench of local justices be able to adjudicate on such a complaint without a special or police magistrate beng on the bench?

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

– That is not the intention. Power is taken under this* clause to proclaim Courts other than those mentioned in the section. The desire is only where the necessity arises to vest special jurisdiction in a State Court. The intention is not to confer the power upon any person with less “authority than a stipendiary or special magistrate.

Mr Tudor:

– That may be the intention, but would the clause, as it stands, permit of such cases being dealt with by a bench of justices of the peace?

Mr GROOM:

– Such cases can be dealt with only by a Court constituted as stated in the clause. It is quite * possible that what the honorable member suggests might be done under the clause as it stands, but that is not the intention. I am simply moving the insertion of the word “ State “ to show clearly that the reference is only to State Courts.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4 agreed to.

Clause 5 -

Section forty-six of the principal Act is amended by omitting the words “ the Court “ and inserting in their stead the words “a Court.”

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- This amendment of the principal Act means a weakening of the powers of the Arbitration Court. “ The Court “ in this case means the Arbitration Court, and by substituting “ a “ for “ the “ we extend power to any Court of ordinary magistrates. If the Government desire to wipe out the Arbitration power, why do they not take a straightforward and honest action in that direction ? Why do they not say that they are tired of the arbitration power? I believe in arbitration, and stand up for it; but there are some who say that they are opposed to arbitration and prefer the principle of the strike. If the Court is to be done away with, let action be taken honestly and straightforwardly.

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Home and Territories · Darling Downs · NAT

– The honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Tudor) has raised a lot of dust; but, as a matter of fact, no one is desirous of committing the heinous offence that he suggests. The object of this amendment is simply to cure a defect, the existence of which has been shown by a decision of the High Court. The High Court has held that the Arbitration Court cannot enforce penalties.

Mr Tudor:

– We can give it the power to do so.

Mr GROOM:

– We, under the Act, cannot give the Court as constituted .that power. In order to give the judicial power to a Justice of the High Court to enforce the provisions of the Act we should have to confer it upon the High Court.

Clause agreed to.

Clause

Section forty-eight of the principal Act is amended by omitting the words “ the Court “ and inserting in their stead the words “a County or District Court or a Local Court of Full Jurisdiction.”

Mr GROOM:
Minister for. Home and Territories · Darling Downs · NAT

– I move- -

That the words “ or District Court or a Local Court of Full Jurisdiction “ be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof “ District or Local Court.”

I propose this amendment, because in three of the States there are local Courts, and the words, “ of Full Jurisdiction “ might be considered to be a limitation.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7 -

After section 81 of the principal Act the following section is inserted in Fart VII.: - “ 81a. ( 1 ) Nothing in any award or order made under this Act, or in any agreement relating to industrial matters, shall operate to prevent the employment of returned soldiers or sailors.”

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

.- This clause proposes to give to returned soldiers a measure of preference.

Mr Groom:

– Not of preference.

Mr BRENNAN:

– It proposes to give a measure of preference, to the extent that it places them on the same footing as those to whom preference may have been given by the Court of Arbitration.

Mr Groom:

– That is correct.

Mr BRENNAN:

– I do not say for a moment that too much can be done for our soldiers returning, or to return later on; but this clause proposes that something may be done for themwhich I think they themselves would not desire. I have had the advantage of a conversation with the new member for Swan (Mr. Cor boy), who is a returned soldier, and by no means a feather-bed soldier, and who expressed a strong desire for an opportunity to speak on this clause. He deprecated any preferential treatment which would place the soldiers in the position, as he expressed it, very directly, of “ scabbing “ on their fellow workers. I do not admit that the soldiers returning to this country are desirous to take advantage of some section in an Act of Parliament to place themselves in a position in the world of industrial competition of advantage against their fellow workers, or to be put in a position where inducement is held out to them not to join industrial organizations. Although the policy of the Commonwealth Government on all sides has been one of industrial organization, this clause is an invitation to our returning soldiers not to join unions, and thus aid in the peaceful solution of industrial trouble, but to take special advantages which this Parliament was not likely to refuse to them owing to the fact that they are returned soldiers. If I thought that the soldiers were coming back in an attitude of hostility to organized labour - that there were men amongst them who, if I may use the word, have been weaned from their allegiance to organizations - I would suppose them to be only too glad to take advantage of a clause like this. But I believe that they will come back better unionists than they went away, and that many who previously were not members of organizations will become so on their return. There has been developed a spirit of comradeship and fellowship with their fellow workers of all grades, whether on the battle-field or in the industrial arena, and I am sure they have no desire to take advantage of a clause which I think should not have been offered for their acceptance.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

. -I am afraid that some provisions of this Bill will have a tendency to strikepromoting. I can imagine a shearers’ shed in which most of the men are working under a preference decision of the Court ; and it may so happen that one or two soldiers desire to accept the same preference. Then, on a board of shearers, there may be a majority of returned soldiers who are unionists; and I ask whether it is not going to create considerable trouble if it is found that we are giving to some returned soldiers the same preference as is enjoyed by others who have taken part in the fight of organized labour for better conditions. Instead of cementing the happy relationships that have been formed on the battlefields, I am afraid we are creating a cause of dissension. This clause should not be permitted to pass without protest, because I do not think that the soldiers desire it; indeed, I fancy that the unionists amongst them will resent it.

Clause agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendments.

Standing Orders suspended ; report adopted.

Motion (by Mr. Groom) proposed -

That the Bill be now read a third time.

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

.- This Bill has passed with a few consequential or other amendments the Minister has thought fit to introduce. I hope the honorable gentleman will not be led to suppose from our comparatively patient, quiet acquiescence in this Bill that we are satisfied with existing conditions of conciliation and arbitration. On the contrary, I hope he will realize that we devoutly hope and expect that he, or some Minister in his place, will, at an early stage, introduce a Bill to deal with the whole question. There are no principles in the measure before us of vital importance.

Arbitration, it is true, has proved somewhat disappointing; that is to say, the powers, at all events, exercised by the Court created by this Parliament haveproved disappointing, and for two reasons. One reason is that the Conciliation and Arbitration Act had scarcely been enacted before the employing class generally in this country, although they had, through their official spokesmen, expressed themselves as wholly favorable to the policy, placed all softs of obstacles in the way of the successful working of the Act, and by means of technical objections sought to defeat the just claims of the men before the Court. That, I think, is the main reason why conciliation and arbitration has failed, because, as the phrase implies, it depends on a good spirit between the parties. It may be fairly said, on the other hand, that the men have rushed to the Court and sought to make it a tribunal for settling all disputes and generally regulating their wages and conditions - a power which is not vested in the Commonwealth Court, and could not be vested in it under the Constitution’. Between these two factors, with the employers anxious to defeat the whole Act and the men more than anxious to take advantage of even greater powers than the Act gave the Court, the measure, in a great degree, has been brought into disrepute. There are many workers in the various organizations who have been anxious to drop the whole system of arbitration - who have despaired of making it a success - and have resorted to what is called “ direct action.” After all, “ direct action “ is tide policy which has been accepted by the employing classes for probably a thousand years - the policy of force. They have become so accustomed to exercise “direct action” over employees - to bring the weight of position, money, and influence to bear -that they have really grown to imagine that there is something sacrosanct in their right to coerce the employee; and when the employees’, for some good reasons, seek to administer a little of the employers’ own medicine in the form of “direct action,” they are branded as something so utterly lawless as to be unworthy of the respect of their fellow men.

I invite the Government not to rest on such meagre laurels as they may claim to have obtained from this comparatively trifling measure. I houe not only that they will come down with a broad and generous-minded Conciliation and Arbitration Bill, but that it will support some opinions I have heard the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. “Watt) express, and that he will seek to break down the opposition of many honorable members opposite to an extended power in the Federal Conciliation and Arbitration Court to deal with industrial matters generally.

Mr Watt:

– This Bill is only to stop a hole to keep the wind away.

Mr BRENNAN:

– That appears to be so from the discussion, and I allow the Bill to go without further remark.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a third time.

page 9954

SUSPENSION OF SITTING

Mr WATT:
NAT

– It is the desire of the Government that the members of both Chambers shall meet in the Refreshment Rooms for a short surcease from legislative sorrow in order to express to one another some of the sentiments of the season. I therefore suggest that the’ sitting be suspended.

Sitting suspended from S.SO to 1-20 p.m.

page 9954

WAR SERVICE HOMES BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed from the 19th December (vide page 9866) on motion by Mr. Groom- -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Lt.-Colonel ABBOTT (New England) [4.20J. - It is a matter of deep regret that a most important Bill dealing with repatriation in one of its most important phases, the building of homes for our returned boys, should be brought forward in the concluding hours of the session. It is also a matter for regret that sufficient opportunity has not been given to honorable members to discuss repatriation matters generally. The Appropriation Bill we passed, yesterday provides £250,000 for national workshops and vocational training for returned soldiers, £1,500,000 to be advanced to the States to settle returned soldiers on the land, £500,000 to be advanced to the States for the employment of returned soldiers in forestry work, and £1,000,000 as incident*! expenses in connexion with repatriation work. All that is apart from the money that will be required to carry out the purposes of this Bill. It was unfortunate that a matter of the greatest importance to the people of Australia today, the repatriation of our soldiers, found a place right at the end of the Estimates, and that the operation of the guillotine deprived honorable members of the opportunity of dealing with the complex questions involved in it. However, this Bill covers at least one branch of repatriation work with which honorable members can deal even at this late stage of the session.

I hope that during the next six or twelve months practically all of our soldiers will be back in Australia. Until the 31st October last 412,066 men had enlisted for service abroad, and 78,544 had returned. The total number discharged in Australia by the 31st October was 68,334, and of that number 34,588, or roughly one-half, had made applications to the Repatriation Department for assistance. Accepting these figures as a guide, the Department must look forward to making provision for at least one-half of the men who have yet to return.

Lt. -Colonel ABBOTT. - I admit that the honorable member’s statement is correct, but I ask him to remember that medical inspection has shown that 30 per cent, of the Anzacs who have returned on furlough, and are supposed to be “A” class men, fit for service, are really not “A” class. We must not imagine that those who have passed through the turmoil and strife of the last four years will be in the best of health.

As my time is very limited, I shall touch on the Bill and repatriation work in a general way only. In my opinion the Repatriation Department and the Repatriation Act fail to render help to one ‘section of the community which is most deserving of assistance. To the 30th June. last, 52,536 of our men had died on active service, leaving behind them 6,321 widows and 10,400 children under the age of sixteen years. What consideration is given by the Repatriation Act, or even by the Bill before us, to the future welfare of these 10,400 children ? It is one” of the greatest responsibilities of the Repatriation Department to-day to see that the children of our fallen heroes have even greater consideration extended to them than they would have had if their fathers had lived. We must see that every one of those children is launched into the world with, perhaps, even a better chance of getting on than he might .have had if the father had lived. If Australia, in passing repatriation measures, falls short of that standard, it is false to the brave dead and to the promises made to our men when they went overseas, and these children, in time to come, may be able to point the finger of scorn at Parliament, and say, “ Our fathers went to fight for this land, and left their bone3 in France or Gallipoli, but what has the country done for us?” The Act makes provision for vocational training. We know that the widowed mother and children can get certain allowances under the War Pensions Act. But what are they? A widow, or a widowed mother of an unmarried son, gets £2 per fortnight if the husband or son had been receiving 6s. per day, and that ribes in gradations until, if the deceased soldier had been in receipt of 10s. per day, the widow or mother is allowed £2 12s. 3d. per fortnight. If the widow engages in vocational training, the Repatriation Department increases her allowance to 35s. per week, and allows for the first child 20s. a fortnight; for the second child, 15s. ; and for the third and every subsequent child, 10s. If both parents are dead the allowance made for each child, up to ten years of age, is £1 per fortnight; from ten to fourteen years, 25s. per fortnight; and from fourteen to sixteen years, 30s. per fortnight. Then’ the Repatriation Act, of which this Bill is a branch, steps in. The Minister may, on the recommendation of the State Boards,- make arrangements to pay such amounts as are necessary for the education of the children, and he may pay fees for their vocational or professional training. Under the Repatriation Act, a widow and one child may receive, inclusive of pension, 51s.; with two children, 54s. 6d.; and with three children, 58s.; with four children, 61s. 6d. ; and with five or more children, 64s. 6d. There are also provisions for an allowance of £35 for household furniture, and £150 for the purchase of a business or stock, or the lifting of mortgages, &c. Those are practically all the benefits which the widow and children receive under the Repatriation Act. This Bill is intended to make provision for soldiers and their dependants; but I ask that a proper and systematic scheme be evolved for taking charge of the children of fallen soldiers, and safeguarding their future welfare. It is all very fine to say that there are State charitable institutions. Would any honorable member say that the child of any soldier hero should be sent to a home, and receive charity in any form? There are cases in which soldiers’ children are motherless, and their father has died on active service. I made inquiries at the Repatriation Department regarding the provision for children in such cases, and will not honorable members be surprised to hear that there is no machinery in the Department for ascertaining where the children are, and caring for them ? The Department consoles itself with the thought that the children will be attended to by the trustees. Money is paid for the benefit of the children to the trustee or next of kin. Taking an extreme case, suppose the uncle is a drunkard, and this miserable pittance is doled out by the Department to him, what chance will the children have? There exists a need for special supervision over the distribution of that money. We should have a staff of humane inspectors, male and female, who will follow the money to its destination, and see’ that it is applied for the benefit of the children - that it goes upon their backs in the form of clothes, or into their bodies in the form of food; or their minds in the form of education. The Department should insure that those children get a proper start in life, and, above all, that sympathetic and humane treatment is given to them to compensate ag far as possible for the loss of their parents, and to build their lives upon sure foundations instead of allowing them to be kicked from pillar to post. If I had the time, I could quote many cases of this kind. The Repatriation Department replies that it gets reports from Local Committees. There should be in every district, or shire, or municipality an accredited council or committee charged with the responsibility of attending to the claims of returned soldiers, and their first and greatest duty should be to locate every soldier’s widow and child. In the district of Tamworth, it was discovered that there was poverty and starvation amongst the dependants of soldiers. Last winter, some women had not enough blankets, and their children were sick and hungry. One benevolent lady, who raised money for the purchase of a battleplane, and has rendered other patriotic services, heard of some cases. She scoured the district in a motor car, and the reports she submitted to the Committee regarding the distress amongst soldiers’ widows and kiddies would positively shock honorable members. If such conditions obtain in country districts where people can get food and necessaries, what is happening in the cities and suburbs, where population is congested ? At Tamworth, we found it necessary to appoint a weekly dependant’s day, on which contributions of goods were’ received, and all soldiers’ widows and dependants were visited. The orphan children of soldiers should receive preferential treatment over all other children. It is the duty of the Department to ascertain where these children are, and establish hostels where they may be maintained and educated. That system should not bear, the brand of charity. Let the children wear a badge showing that they are soldiers’ kiddies if you like, but let us care for them as a duty we owe to their fathers. Some of the millions of pounds that are being spent ought to be sent to the different States. Some soldier’s child in the back country may be a village Hampden, touched by Providence with the wand of genius. Let us see that each child has an opportunity of getting a fair education, and that the girls have every inducement to go straight and live moral lives. If a widowed mother is too sick and weakly to be able to give close attention to the rearing of her children, it is the duty of every one . of us to see that each child is given a chance in the world. If one kiddy of a dead soldier should go to the dogs, or, by reason of his or her father’s death, should not have the same opportunity as other children have, we as legislators and the people, of Australia will be primarily responsible. A nation’s biggest asset i& its growing children, and in the years to come, more than ever before, we must establish for the masses of the people a broad system of primary, secondary, and technical education, which shall be compulsory for every child who is living in an industrial blind alley. Under the system which operates in Germany and in parts of England, a lad enters a factory for a week, and next week he is compulsorily sent to a technical school for vocational training. There he is made completely au fait with his job, and is qualified to become a better citizen. That is a duty which the country owes to every one of its people.

In regard to the Bill, the homes idea is an excellent one, but we have not given enough consideration to the children. Mr. T. G. Adamson, of Tamworth,- has produced an excellent pamphlet which, during this festive season, would provide a text for us all to study - “ What is happening to the children of departed soldiers?” Let the time never arise when it can be said that we, the people of Australia, and the members of this Legislature, were responsible for the failure in life of any dead soldier’s boy or girl.

Lt. -Colonel ABBOTT.- Unfortunately that is so. I waited patiently to have an opportunity on the Estimates to discuss the subject of repatriation, but the only chance I have had is now, when I have only a few minutes to spare before catching my train. It seems almost a sacrilege to touch the subject in the superficial way I am obliged to do it. Let us remember during the holidays what are our obligations, and let the Minister for Repatriation come forward when next we meet with a comprehensive scheme which will search out every soldier’s child, and give to it, not charity, but the fair treatment which the father’s sacrifices demand, so that those 10,400 children I have mentioned will have opportunities as good as,if not better than, would have been theirs had their daddies lived.

Mr McGRATH:
Ballarat

.- With the honorable member who has just resumed his seat, I regret that this Bill has been brought forward at the last moment. Although repatriation is the most important question with which Parliament could deal, we have had no opportunity to discuss it, except in the dying hours of the session, when more than half the members of the House have departed to other States. Members on both sides of the House declared that we would not break the promises we made to the soldiers. We have broken those promises. Four years of war have gone by, and we have made very little provision for them, and to-day, when peace is about to be proclaimed, and when it is almost certain that many thousands of soldiers will be returned in a few months, there is nothing but chaos in the Repatriation Department in Victoria. The State Repatriation Board and the Deputy Comptroller have resigned, and nobody seems to know what has been done, or is to lie done. We have voted a million pounds for repatriation,- but, owing to the operation of the guillotine, we have had no opportunity to discuss how it shall be applied. There cannot be a member who does not desire that justice shall be done to our returned soldiers and their dependants, and yet there are many things happening that ought not to happen. For instance, only the other day I received a complaint from a soldier who had lost the use of his arm, that after six months his pension had been reduced, and, on writing to the Deputy Commissioner on the subject, I was informed that, under the Act, a reduction to three-fourths of the rate granted must be made at the end of that period. Surely it is not the desire of the people of this country that such a reduction should be made. A man who has lost the use of an arm is no more capable at the end of six months, during which he has been drawing a pension, than he was at the beginning of that period. I am besieged with complaints of hardship. The honorable member for New England (Lt. -Colonel Abbott) says that we are not looking after the children of dead soldiers, and we are not doing so. Then there are the cases of mothers who have lost sons, who went away at an age when they were contributing little or nothing to the upkeep of the family, but who, had they not done their duty to their country, and had remained in safety in Australia, would now be earning £3 or £4 per week, and assisting materially to maintain the home. No consideration is given to these facts in the granting of pensions. Then there are the illegitimate children. At the end of two years pensions cease to be payable in respect of them, and the mother must disclose the facts to the rest of the family. There is no proposal to alter that state of affairs. No proper provision is made for vocational training. It is not to be wondered at that Major Cunningham resigned, because all who have had anything to do with the’ Jolimont office know that it was absolutely ignored by the central authorities. *

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Major Cunningham is a fine, broad-minded man.

Mr McGRATH:

– -I will admit that of him, though I do not forget that he threatened to court-martial me. Still I found him conscientious in the work that he was carrying out, and he showed a fair grip of the questions with which he was dealing. » It was impossible, however, for him to do useful work. A joinery business was acquired in Ballarat to enable the repatriated soldier to be taught a trade, but the Central Board did not inform Major Cunningham of what had been done, and to this day, although twenty men are learning a trade there, Mr. Hicks, who is mainly responsible for vocational training, and is really a fine officer, has received no notification on the subject. Letters were sent from the Jolimont office to the Central office, and though months elapsed, no reply was given to them, and nothing was done in regard to them. As a result, the Deputy Controller has resigned, and a whole body of men are in a state of ferment because they can do no useful work. I do not agree with those who suggest that we should hand over the control of repatriation to a non-political body. Parliament should exercise full control.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– It does not do so.

Mr McGRATH:

– The supporters of the Government are to blame for that. The honorable member holding the portfolio of Repatriation should be in this House, because it is impossible to obtain the information one desires by addressing questions to the Minister for Repatriation through his representative here, the Acting Attorney-General. This afternoon I heard speeches about peace and goodwill and our debt to our soldiers, but I venture to say that there will be serious trouble in Australia if 20,000 or 30,000 men arrive back here within the next two or three months. Many of those who have already returned complain bitterly. Nearly 300 men who have been passed by the doctors as fit for vocational training are still walking the streets, drawing a sustenance allowance, and there is nothing worse for a man than to be idling in Bourke-street or Sturtstreet, Ballarat, under such circumstances. It does not matter what money may be required for machinery, or what difficulty there may be in getting instructors, we should provide for the education of these men at once. As soon as a man expresses a desire to be vocationally trained, he should be able to begin his training. I know that a soldier is not much inclined to return to civilian work. The honorable member for New England says that he thinks 30 per cent, of the men coming back, apparently as fit as when they went away, will not be as fit for work as they were when they left. I venture to say that 60 per cent, will never again be so fit for work as they were before’ they joined the Army. If a doctor certifies that men are able to follow their original civilian occupations, they are not eligible for vocational training, and I ask the Government to hav« that regulation reconsidered. Many men who went away as miners, having now seen the world, do not wish to return to their old occupation, and we should give them an opportunity to learn a trade if they so desire. The fact that a man has not been wounded should not be a reason for denying him the opportunity to learn a trade. Our soldiers have made the greatest sacrifices possible for their country, and those who are lucky enough to return in fairly good health should have the privilege of vocational training. We should endeavour to find out what each man is best adapted for, and train him accordingly.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– There is no provision for that, nor is there any provision for financing the man who returns fit and well.

Mr McGRATH:

– There is no provision for helping the fit man, though, as a matter of fact, no doctor can determine that a returned soldier is absolutely fit. A man who has* been through a barrage and over a parapet is never the same again. Those who know what the Australian soldiers did in the last stages of this war will agree with me that nothing we can do for them is too much. Men like Robert Blatchford, an exsergeantmajor of the British Army, a well known and very capable journalist, have publicly stated that had it not been for the three Australian divisions that retook Villers-Bretonneux after the Germans had captured it, and were threatening Amiens and, after it, Paris, the war must have continued for perhaps ten years more. These divisions were brought down after the Allies had been driven out’, and! the order was given to recapture the place. The action of our men in driving back the Germans probably materially shortened the war, and perhaps saved years of fighting. The boys are not coming back to pre-war conditions. They have fought and have saved the Empire, and they want better conditions than they left. Many men who were miners will not be content to go back to mining.

Mr Spence:

– We should not ask them to do so.

Mr McGRATH:

– No provision is made for the setting up of the men in business, if they were not in business before they enlisted. I have had twenty miners refused the opportunity to train at the School of Mines in Ballarat, because it was said that they were in good health, and the regulations provided that they should return to their original occupation.

Mr Poynton:

– You cannot put every man into a business.

Mr McGRATH:

– I realize the great difficulty of establishing men in businesses. The percentage of failures for want of business training has been very large; but there should be no hard and fast rule to prevent it. There are one hundred and one subjects which I should like to discuss now, but I have not the time. My desire is that Australia shall be a contented place after the boys return. I do not wish “to encourage a spirit that may be dangerous to this country, nor do I want to see happen here the troubles that came after the South African war, by reason of the nonfulfilment of promises. What our men did in the closing stages of the war probably saved this country £200,000,000 or £300,000,000, and all of them who return deserve every consideration.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Watt) adjourned until a later hour.

page 9960

CONCILIATION AND ARBITRATION BILL (No. 2)

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 9960

CHIEF JUSTICE’S PENSION BILL

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 9960

INCOME TAX BILL

In Committee (Consideration of Senate’s request) :

Clause 6 -

In addition to any tax (including additional tax, if any) payable under the preceding provisions of this Act other than sub-section (5) of section 4, there shall be payable a super-tax equal to thirty per centum of the total amount of the tax so payable.

Senate’s Request. - Before “ (5) “ insert “ (4) and “.

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– I move -

That the requested amendment be made.

The Bill as we passed it imposed a 30 per cent. increase on income tax rates, but the Senate desires that that increase shall not apply to the minimum payments. This means a loss of revenue estimated at about £10,000, though we cannot arrive at the amount exactly. As the exemption proposed affects only the lowest grade of income, and applies to a large number of women on fixed rates, I am willing to agree to it.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I have not a copy of the amendment before me, but I understand from the conversations I have had with members of another place that its effect is as stated by the Acting Prime Minister. The clause as it stood would have adversely affected many female school teachers, who are not the best. paid public servants in Australia. Our female telephone operators receive better pay than do many female school teachers. During the last two or three days the Victorian State Parliament House has been beseiged by lady teachers anxious to hear the debate on a Bill relating to their payment. They expect an increase which will make their salaries slightly over £100 per annum, and it would be unpleasant for them to find that this increase brought them within the ambit of our taxation. The purchasing power of the sovereign to-day is nothing like what it was when the Federal income tax was originally imposed, and I am glad that the Treasurer has decided to accede to the Senate’s request.

Motion agreed to; requested amendment made.

Resolution reported; report adopted.

Ordered -

That the Bill, amended accordingly, be re turned to the Senate.

page 9960

WAR-TIME PROFITS TAX ASSESSMENT BILL

In Committee (Consideration of Senate’s Amendments) .

Senate’s Amendment. - After clause 1, insert following new clause: - “ 1a. Section 2 of the principal Act is amended by omitting all words from and including ‘ next after ‘ and inserting in their stead the words ‘one thousand nine hundred and nineteen.’.”

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– With one exception the amendments made by another place are to give effect to promises which I made while the Bill was before this House. The first of these amendments is to limit the operation of the Act to the 30th June next, in accordance with a promise that I gave to the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Sampson). I move -

That the Senate’s amendment be agreed to.

Motion agreed to.

Clause 3 -

Section 8 of the principal Act is amended -

  1. By inserting in sub-section 1, after paragraph g the following paragraphs: - “ (i) Such mining businesses or such classes of mining businesses (not including any coal mining business) as are specified by proclamation, as from the date, to the extent and on the conditions set forth in theproclamation, and”

Senate’s Amendment. - After “proclamation” line 10, add the following words: - “ The proclamation shall be laid before both Houses of the Parliament within seven days of the making thereof, or, if the Parliament is not then sitting, within seven days after the next meeting of the Parliament; but if cither House of the Parliament passes a resolution of which notice has been given at any time within fifteen sitting days after the proclamation has been laid before such House disallowing the proclamation, the proclamation shall cease to have effect as from the making thereof.”

Mr. WATT (Balaclava- Acting Prime

Minister and Treasurer) [5.3]. - The second of the Senate’s amendments deals with proclamations, which, at the suggestion of the honorable member for Kooyong (Sir Robert Best) are now to be laid uponthe table of both Houses within seven days of the meeting of Parliament or within seven days of their making. This provision deals particularly with the discretionary power which is conferred upon the Commissioner by the Bill to exempt certain classes of mining, and the amendment has been made in another place so that Parliament may know exactly how the Commissioner has exercised his discretion. I move -

That the Senate’s amendment be agreed to.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- The effi cacy of this provision will depend upon whether the House is afforded an opportunity to discuss any such proclamation when it is laid on the table.

Sir Robert Best:

– In any event, the laying of a proclamation on the table of the House will give public information in regard to it.

Mr TUDOR:

– Quite so; but like many other regulations that are laid on the table, I do not suppose we shall ever have an opportunity to discuss these proclamations.

Mr Watt:

– All that is going to be altered.

Mr TUDOR:

– I hope the Acting Prime Minister’s good resolution will be given effect to.

Motion agreed to.

Senate’s Amendment. - Leave out sub-para graph j and insert the following subparagraph - “ (j) any agency (in which little or no capital expenditure is required) to the extent to which the Commissioner is satisfied that the profits arise from commissions in respect of purchases, sales, leases, loans, insurances or collections of money made on behalf of any other person, including commercial travellers and agents whose remuneration consists wholly of a fixed and definite sum not dependent on the amount of the business done or any other contingency.”

Mr. WATT (Balaclava- Acting Prime

Minister and Treasurer) [5.6]. - This amendment deals with the much troubled question of mixed businesses, consisting of an agency and some other form of business. The difficulty was explained originally by the honorable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr. Austin Chapman), who pointed out that a man might carry on a furniture business together with an agency. This amendment gives effect to the promise I then made, that if the Commissioner was satisfied as to the agency profits made by a man who is conducting another business, he would exempt such profits under the conditions prescribed by this clause. I move -

That the Senate’s amendment be agreed to.

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

.- I wish only to say once more that I can see no justification for this clause. To my mind, it destroys the whole value of the Bill, and I regret that it finds a place in it.

Motion agreed to.

Senate’s Amendment. - Add the following new paragraph - “ (bb) by inserting after paragraph (j) the following paragraph: - ; and

  1. businesses deriving profits from the raising and sale of stud live stock bred by owner of the business to the extent of the profits so derived where the profits so derived do not exceed Two thousand pounds.”

Mr. WATT (Balaclava- Acting Prime

Minister and Treasurer) [5.8]. - This amendment is designed to give effect to an undertaking that I gave to the honorable member for Indi (Mr. Leckie) when the Bill was in Committee, in regard to a proposal for the exemption of certain classes of profit on stud businesses. Under this amendment such profits will be exempt where they do not exceed £2,000. It will not exempt the profits of dealers in stud live-stock, if there are such persons, but it will exempt businesses deriving profits from the raising and sale of stud live-stock bred by the owner of the business, to the extent of the profits so derived, where they do not exceed £2,000. I move-

That the Senate’s amendment be agreed to.

Motion agreed to.

Clause 8 -

Section 15 of the principle Act is amended . . .

Senate’s Amendments - After paragraphf insert the following new paragraph: - “(ff) by omitting sub-section (8) thereof and inserting in its stead the followingsubsection: -

  1. In the case of a business which uses leasehold property or the owner of which has acquired a licence to construct works, buildings, or other improvements for the purpose of gain on any land -

    1. for which a definite sum of money has been paid other than the rent reserved; or
    2. for which a consideration in the form of material assets has been given by the lessee or licensee; or
    3. upon which the lessee has covenanted with the lessor to expend money on works, buildings, or other improvements which will revert to thelessor upon the termination of the lease; or
    4. upon the condition that the works, buildings, or other improvements will pass to the licensor at the termination of the licence, a deduction shall be allowed of the amount obtained by dividing the sum so paid or to be expended or the value of the consideration so given by the number of years of the unexpired period of the lease or licence, at the date the Amount was so paid, or the consideration was so given, or (in the case of money to be expended upon the works, buildings, or other improvements) at the date of his entry into possession of the lease or licence.’ “
Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– This amendment is the exception to which I referred in my opening remarks. The present law permits a deduction from the profits of a sinking fund required to recoup capital expenditure under covenants to expend money ,on the improvement of leaseholds where the lessee has no tenant right in the improvements. This amendment will extend the concession to cases in which licences are granted to owners of businesses to construct works, buildings, or other improvements on land for the purposes of the businesses, provided the works, buildings, and other improvements will pass to the licensor without compensation to the licensee upon termination of the lease. Public tramways, constructed on public thoroughfares or through private properties under licence, will thus be benefited. One of the difficulties experienced by the Department ever since the Act came into force has been in regard to the vanishing rights of the lessee of such leaseholds. Where a man under a building lease, for example, undertakes to lease for twenty years, and to hand over the land, with the building intact, at the end of that time, the money that has been spent on that building has to be amortised within the period ofthe lease. With regard to the other things which have never yet been provided for, the same principle applies. If this amendment, which was recommended by the Leader of the Government in the Senate, be adopted, it will allow exactly the same concession in respect of amortising as we have allowed for vanishing and other assets. I move -

That the Senate’s amendment be agreed to.

Motion agreed to.

Clause 9 -

Section 17 of the principal Act is amended by adding at the end thereof the following sub-section…….

Provided that where the member has borrowed money on the security of his estate in the land the average amount of the borrowed money outstanding during the accounting period of the partnership shall be deducted from the amount that would otherwise be included in the capital of’ the partnership business, and shall be deemed to be borrowed money used by that business within the meaning of sub-section 15 of section 15 of this Act.

Senate’s Amendment. - Leave out all words from and including the word “Provided,” and insert in lieu thereof - “Provided that where a member has borrowed money for the purpose of acquiring his estate in the land, or has borrowed money on the security of his estate in the land for the purpose of using it in the business of . the partnership, the average amount of the borrowed money outstanding during the accounting period of the partnership shall be deducted from the amount that would otherwise be included .in the capital of the partnership business, and shall be deemed to be borrowed money used by that business within the meaning of sub-section (15) of section 15 df this Act.”

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– This amendment deals with partnerships in land and stock in joint and severalty to which reference was made by the honorable member for Wannon (Mr. Rodgers). An amendment moved in his behalf by the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Sampson) was accepted by me because I thought that, having regard to the rapid drafting which had then to be accomplished, it would do exactly what I promised would be done. We find, however, that that is not so. If four men join in partnership, their stock being joint and their land several, the desire now is to bring the land into joint account, so that as an asset earning profit it should be allowed as a portion of the capital to be accounted on. If some of the land is mortgaged, or if there is borrowed money against it, we want to bring it into full account, unmortgaged, to deduct .the amount of the mortgage, and to show the net amount that has been thus introduced as an asset into the partnership, and to give credit, after getting that net amount, for the amount of the mortgage at borrowed rates. This accomplishes that, as I promised it should, but the original (provision did not. I move -

That the Senate’s amendment be agreed to.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- I appreciate very much the performance of the Acting Prime Minister’s promise to put the several owners of an estate worked in partnership in the same position that a single owner of the same property would occupy. I endeavoured to point out when the Bill was in Committee that many of these properties would be returning only 5 per cent, or 6 per cent, interest, but would still come within the operation of thiB tax. That, I am sure, was not the intention of the Legislature or the desire of the Commissioner. There is only one point to which I wish to refer. It seems to me that if this amendment were not made, those partners would obtain the .advantage of the larger provision which the Act itself makes for owners who borrow money. I refer to the .provision in respect of which they are allowed 10 per cent, on the borrowed money. However, I do not wish to press that point, and I appreciate the very generous and fair concession made by the Government and the Commissioner.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- This is a rather complicated matter for a layman to follow. Is it tie intention of the Government to exempt the profits made on borrowed money?

Mr Watt:

– This will allow the borrowed money rate for it just as if it were borrowed for the purchase of stock, as we have provided in other cases.

Mr TUDOR:

– The tax would be collected in respect of the other profits 1

Mr Watt:

– Yea.

Mr TUDOR:

– This amendment allows the average amount of borrowed money outstanding in the accounting period to be brought into account at the average rate of interest which would have to be paid during that time?

Mr Watt:

– Yes; as in the case of all other businesses?

Mr TUDOR:

– It puts these people in the same position as a warehouseman or manufacturer iri the city?

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– This does not affect cases of joint and several ownership such as I have described unless the land is mortgaged or money is borrowed against it. In all other businesses, in such cases, the average amount of borrowed money that is employed is allowed for at the rate which the Act prescribes. Through a slip in the drafting we failed to provide for that.

Mr Considine:

– Does it apply to au individual borrowing money and investing it in a business ?

Mr WATT:

– Yes; provided he becomes a taxpayer under the Bill,” it is a condition of assessment which is duly allowed for. If there is an estate worth £20,000, which a particular individual partner has brought into a joint partnership, that hitherto has not been allowed for as credit, but now we do allow for it. It is taken at the £20,000 value, and if there is a £10,000 mortgage, we deduct that, and say that the net amount which the partner brought in is £10,000. We take it that he has £10,000 borrowed money employed, and that is allowed for at the rate at which borrowed money is entitled to be employed under the Act. This is an exact parity with the allowance made in other businesses.

Motion agreed to.

Senate’s Amendment. - After clause 9 insert the following new clause: - “ 9a. Section 27 of the principal Act is amended by omitting the proviso to sub-section (3) thereof.”

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– I move -

That the Senate’s amendment be agreed to.

This is a consequential amendment. In two other places in the Bill which gives the Commissioner certain discretion, we struck out the principle that he could apply that discretion only when it would insure the financial stability of the business, but we omitted to strike it out in another part, and this amendment is to put that right. I move -

That the Senate’s amendment be agreed to.

Motion agreedto.

Clause 11.

  1. All amendments to the principal Act made by this Act, other than the amendments referred to in sub-section (1) of this section shall apply to assessments made for the financial year commencing on the 1st day of July, 1916, and all subsequent years.

Senate’s Amendment. - . After the word “ shall” insert “ subject to this Act.”

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– This is another consequential amendment dealing with the introduction of new capital in clause 11. It is necessitated by an addition to section 12 of the Act providing that the allowance shall apply only to the assessment of profit for 1918-19. This is a compromise to meet the rival views expressed on both sides, and I did not at the time see the necessity for accomplishing it quite in this way. The Senate’s amendment gives completion to that arrangement, and insures now that the 10 per cent. arrangement in regard to new capital shall only operate in this present financial year 1918-19. I move -

That the Senate’s amendment be agreed to.

Motion agreed to.

Mr Sampson:

– Will the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt) make an announcement as to the possible composition of the Board of Referees? I understand that the honorable gentleman was prepared to do so at an earlier stage of the Bill.

Mr WATT:

(By leave).- With the permission of the Committee I should like to make a brief announcement that I had intended to make on the third reading. There is some confusion in the mind of the ordinary taxpayer, and even in the minds of some honorable members, as to the various Boards created under the Bill. The commercial community imagined at first that the Hardships Board was to be the Board of Referees - that the Land Tax Board was to be the body. That, however, is not the intention of the Government. The officials who constitute the other Boards are doing their work very well, and, no doubt, will do as well under the Bill; but we do not intend the Board of Referees to be a purely official body. It is the general desire of all connected with the development of this kind of legislation to see that Board composed partly of business men, and the proposal is that there shall be two competent business men and one official, who knows the requirements of the Treasury. That is the composition of the Board to hear appeals.

Resolutions reported; report adopted.

page 9964

WAR SERVICE HOMES BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed (vide page 9960).

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

– I shall not detain the House at any length, although I realize that this is one of the most important measures that we have had to deal with this session. I sincerely regret that the further consideration of the measure has to be postponed until a time when circumstances are such that full justice can be done to its provisions. I am afraid that it may be considered by some people that honorable members on both sides are not showing proper consideration to our soldiers in our treatment of this measure; and I only wish that it had been before us a fortnight or a month ago, so that we might have had the benefit of suggestions from some of the soldiers themselves. This Bill has come down from the Senate with a list of nine amendments, which will be dealt with when the committee stage is reached. I have no doubt that the Repatriation Department has given, and is giving, careful consideration to the problem of housing our returned men and their dependants. I remember hearing Mr. Bradshaw, the secretary of the Plasterers’ Union, Melbourne, who was a member of the State Repatriation Board which recently resigned, say in the course of an address at a meeting at which two members of the French Mission were present, that that Board had been considering how best to provide homes for the returned men. There are many complaints from widows and other dependants of difficulties in this connexion. One case, which is possibly typical of many, is that of a widow of a tramway employee who was in receipt of a pension of about £1 15s. a week, and who was considerably inconvenienced and harassed in consequence of, on three occasions, having her rented house sold over her head. Of course, there is no power under the moratorium to prevent a landlord selling his premises ; but the hardship is none the less to a woman with a small family. This woman is anxious for some assistance from the Repatriation Department in the way of purchasing a home of her own. The definition clause of the Bill defines “Eligible person “ as “an Australian soldier who is married, or about to be married, a dependant for whom it is necessary to maintain a home, or a female dependant of a soldier.” This, of course, covers the case of a widow or widowed mother; and the Bill presents an opportunity of providing homes, possibly on much better terms than can be obtained from any building society or other financial institutions. The honorable member for Kooyong (Sir Robert Best) who has had so much experience in connexion with the Langridge Building Society in Melbourne, may be able to tell us how the conditions compare.

Sir Robert Best:

– The term over which the payments extend is longer under the Bill than is usual in the case of ordinary building societies. The shorter the term the larger the instalments.

Mr TUDOR:

– And I think the rate of interest is lower under the Bill.

Sir Robert Best:

– Much; the rate of interest in the case of a. building society is 8 per cent., anyhow.

Mr TUDOR:

– In some cases a number of soldiers’ wives join in the renting of a house, which is looked after by one of them while the others go out to work. The other day I had to make a complaint here about the treament accorded to a lady who applied for some assistance at the Repatriation Office. She had saved about £150, and a building society or other institution had told her that if she raised such an amount they would immediately advance £350. However, it was necessary for her to raise an additional £50, and it was that necessity which took her to the Repatriation Department, where she had a difficulty with one of the officers. I am glad to know, however, that that matter has been satisfactorily cleared up. I am anxious that this Bill should come into operation at once, but I regret that we are dealing with it at a time when it cannot be given the consideration it deserves.

Mr Sampson:

– But it is not laying down any new principle; it is merely liberalizing principles already . in existence.

Mr TUDOR:

– We are bringing into repatriation work something that has been carried on so far by other institutions. Queensland, South Australia, and, I believe, Western Australia, also have made a start in this direction ; but it is the duty of the Commonwealth to undertake it. There is a shortage of homes in every capital city in Australia. I know of many cases in which several soldiers’ families are living together, but when the fathers return each family will require a home of its own. The Minister has said that on a fair-sized block of land more than one house may be put up. I presume that there will be no proposal to build houses on the terrace system which do not permit of light and air reaching every room. These terraces, which were such a feature of building construction in Melbourne some years ago, are a survival of the crowded area conditions of the cities of the old world.

Sir Robert Best:

– The Local Government Act of Victoria provides for a minimum area on which a house may be built.

Mr TUDOR:

– I could take the honorable member to a crowded area within 70 yards of the Richmond Railway Station, where there is one block of land, with a frontage of 200 feet and a depth of about 50 feet, on which seven houses stand. Six of them are terrace houses, and they stand on a frontage of 80 feet with a depth of 50 feet. The Victorian legislation referred to by the honorable member is a step in the right direction, and I hope that other States will follow the example, if they have not already done so. I presume that the Minister’s proposal will be to build houses on the lines of the clerks’ homes scheme at Glenhuntly.

I agree with what the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt) hassaid, that there are oscillations of feeling as to whether public undertakings should be controlled by Parliament or absolutely divorced from it. If the Housing Committee of the Repatriation Department is absolutely divorced from political control, it will be impossible for returned soldiers or their dependants to speak to their parliamentary representatives and have grievances redressed.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– They can talk to their parliamentary representative now, but he is powerless to help them; and so is Parliament.

Mr TUDOR:

– But if we went a step further, and placed the Commissioner absolutely outside Parliament, it would be a step in the wrong direction.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I quite agree with the honorable member.

Mr TUDOR:

– Instead of seeking to give Parliament less control over the Repatriation Department, it may be necessary to give Parliament more control over it. Furthermore, it may be necessary to have the portfolio of the Minister for Repatriation held by a member of this House. In saying this, I have not one word to say against the present Minister (Senator Millen). When the original Bill was before the House, I said that the repatriation scheme was so big that in all probability it would wreck Ministries and kill Ministers. It is a difficult problem to handle. Human nature is encountered in so many phases of it. We are all anxious that the utmost generosity should be extended to the men who have done their best for the Commonwealth, but the utmost care must be exercised in the appointment of a Commissioner, and in seeing that the people with whom he comes into contact may receive the fairest of fair treatment.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- I give the Government my most cordial approval in their proposal to enable the various beneficiaries set out in the Bill the opportunity of establishing homes on the most favorable terms possible. Those beneficiaries are -

  1. An Australian soldier who satisfies the Commissioner that he -

    1. is married; or
    2. is about to marry; or
    3. has dependants for whom it is necessary for him to maintain a home; or
  2. the female dependant of an Australian soldier ; “ Female dependant “ means the widow of an Australian soldier, or, in the case of a deceased Australian soldier who was not married, his mother, provided that -
  3. she is a widow and was prior to to the enlistment of the soldier dependent upon him; or
  4. her husband is so incapacitated as to be unable to contribute materially to her support;

Another class of beneficiary is referred to in clause 46, totally or permanently incapacitated soldiers, for whom provision may be made at the request of the Department of Repatriation. When the Government scheme, as embodied in Regulation 88, was before this House for consideration, I made special reference to the omission of anything in the nature of provision for the establishment of homes, and I have had the pleasure of consulting the Minister on the matter. I have now to congratulate him and the Government upon having come down with a very comprehensive scheme in reference to this fundamental part of repatriation work. In connexion with the small repatriation effort with, which. I have been associated, before we endeavoured to do anything for the soldier we set out ,to provide homes for the ‘widows and little children of the fallen, and on every occasion on which we made an appeal for assistance, the fallen soldier’s comrades approved of the principle that the widow and children should be the nation’s first care. I was particularly pleased at the attitude of the honorable member for New England (Lt.-Colonel Abbott) who stressed the case for the widows and children. The honorable member scarcely gave the Minister and the Government credit for the very generous provision they have made, and in order that his remarks may not stand by themselves, and lead any dependant to believe that inadequate provision for her has been made, I point out that recently the Minister issued a statement showing that with the building of a home for soldiers’ widows and children, plus the pension and the repatriation allowance, a very fair provision had been made for them by the Australian people taking into consideration the whole of the circumstances of our finance. In addition to the provision under this housing scheme, the weekly allowance, including pension, to a soldier and his wife, is 60s. ; ditto, with one child, £3 3s. 6d. ; with two children, £3 7s.; with three children, £3 10s. 6d. ; with four children, £3 13s. 6d. ; with five children, £3 17s. A widow with one child receives, £2 lis. ; with two children, £2 14s. 6d. ; with three children, £2 18s.; with four children, £3 ls. 6d. ; and with five children, £3 4s. 6d. We cannot do too much for the widow and children of fallen soldiers ; but with this housing scheme, plus the financial provision I have mentioned, an honest and fair endeavour has been made by the Government to meet all cases.

Broadly speaking, this Bill lays down a great fundamental principle by rendering it possible for all the beneficiaries mentioned in the measure to establish homes without the payment of more than a nominal deposit. That is, indeed, a generous conception of what this country owes to its soldiers and their dependants. The maximum cost of a house and land is fixed at £700. I do not think the Commissioner will aim .at spending the maximum amount, nor do I think it would be wise to do so. Whilst the price of building material and all the costs in connexion with the creation of a home are exceedingly high to-day, yet economic conditions, and the exhaustion of the world’s spending power, will not permit prices to remain for long as high as they have been for some time past. With the pace at which bottoms are being built in America, Japan, and Great Britain, and with the necessity for getting back to a rapid exchange in commodities, the high prices of all building materials must fall substantially. The only danger I see about rushing headlong into a building scheme is that owing to a fall in prices properties may materially depreciate in value, and the soldier may find himself faced with, the obligation of paying off a property the market value of which is considerably reduced. But that is not sufficient justification for us to mark time.

I was one of the first in this country to advocate a housing scheme for returned soldiers. I am a convinced believer that people should live in their own homes. The home is the first institution of life. People who live under their own roofs are always happier. They are not faced with the disturbing influence of increases in rent and the necessity to seek other houses. They are able1 to settle down to improve and ornament their homes. In this scheme for enabling soldiers and their dependants to have their own homes, the Government will have the backing of the country. Of course, none of us can shut our eyes to the fact that the scheme will require most skilful organization and rigid administration in order to prevent a land boom. The Minister indicated that the Government are likely to spend £50,000,000 in the building of homes, and that 17,000 soldiers are to be settled on the land at, say, an average cost of £1,500 per holding, which would represent another £25,000,000. If this country sets to work to establish homes in the cities and suburbs, and at the same time there is another army of buyers out to settle 17,000 soldiers on the land, in twelve months there will be, unless we are very careful, a huge land boom.

I counsel the Government to take power to compulsorily acquire properties if necessary. As a rule, I am not an advocate of compulsion in regard to the acquisition of other people’s possessions, but when the future welfare of our defenders is concerned, I am prepared to stand by that principle in order that properties may be acquired at reasonable rates. If a land boom is permitted to take place we shall place a load of debt on the man least able to bear it, the man who has been incapacitated by war service. Whilst I desire to stimulate the establishment of homes and settlement on the land, I feel bound to issue a word of warning that a man who starts off on a property owing 100 per cent, of the purchase money for land, stock, and implements, and has to. work out the proposition by himself, will have a very tough problem indeed. For that reason I shall be no party to putting about his neck a burden of charges which are in excess of reasonable market rates. If that is allowed to take place many a man Will be discouraged, and when the bad times come he will be tempted to abandon his holding.

I take it that the idea of the Minister is to create a Homes Department within the Repatriation Department. This is a big business proposition, and will require most skilful handling. There will need to be a scheme of standardization in order to cheapen construction, and a large staff of designers, builders, supervisors, and inspectors. I can foresee that the expenditure of this £50,000,000 will mean the establishment of a huge organization. Probably in anticipation of this the Minister has left the door open for a private movement, and has made provision for a soldier to erect his own home, provided the Commissioner approves of the site and the price and the conditions of the contract. Apparently the Commissioner will allow a soldier who has a small property, or the means to acquire one, and thinks he can build more cheaply than the Department, the opportunity to do so.

This housing scheme will test the business capacity of the Minister and the Commissioner, and the most skilful staff they can employ. I hope, however, that a wise policy will be pursued in endea-

Mr. Rodgers. vouring to get young returned soldiers to establish their homes in country districts. More homes are badly needed for the public generally, as well as for the soldiers, and I hope that the result of these new activities will not be that in the metropolitan areas, astute people will rush to buy up building blocks, but that the Minister will fortify himself with the necessary compulsory power to acquire properties at a reasonable rate. The Government must be firm, and create a public conscience regarding soldier settlements in the city and the country, otherwise there will be a boom in land values. There is nothing worse in the world than for a man to be tied up to a property on which he will be “ pulling the devil by the. tail “ all his life. I do not think there is anything more disheartening than for a man to be on a broad acres proposition that has been purchased too dearly, and is unsuitable, and in respect of which he is unable to carry on. The Minister will probably find that not only will there be a big body of earnest men and women who are keenly desirous of establishing homes, but that, unfortunately there will also be those who are reckless, and will not look after their homes. For that reason it will be necessary, I think, to get some of the outside business brains of the community on the staff. I am pleased that the Commissioner has been’ allowed a choice in the selection of his staff, so that his officers will not come under the hide-bound regulations of the Public Service Act.

I do not know whether the Minister proposes to give the Commissioner power to declare who shall, and who shall not, be eligible. Whilst the Bill defines those who shall be entitled to assistance there is another provision requiring that they shall satisfy the Commissioner. That is far too wide a power to vest in any one man. The Commissioner may have power to appoint deputies.

Sir Robert Best:

– He has.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The Commissioner has to make a decision as to whether an applicant is * likely to make a success of a home. This is provided for in clause 28, which says -

The Commissioner may, at his discretion, refuse to enter into a contract for the sale of any land or lands and dwelling house to, or make any advance to any eligible person, unless he is satisfied that the person has a reasonable prospect of carrying out the terras of the contract of sale or advance. Under the State legislation in Victoria, in allotting lands provision is made for a Qualifications Committee, which consists of very eminent men. But in my judgment, if this Bill is administered in the same way as the Victorian Land Settlement Act it will result in a huge centralized system, under which every individual soldier applicant will have to come to Melbourne, from wherever _ he happens to be in the country, to satisfy the Commissioner that he has a reasonable prospect of carrying out the terms of the contract of sale or advance. Notwithstanding the fact that there are Local Committees with experienced men who have known the soldiers from their boyhood, and are aware of their fitness or otherwise, there is, under the State Act, a compulsion on the part of every soldier who desires to qualify for land settlement to dome to Melbourne to be examined by a Board. The persons examining him will have his credentials before them, but they will have no means of checking any statements he may make. I suggested that this work of examination might be left to Local Committees. That would save enormous expense to the State, as the State, of course, pays the railway fares of applicants. I have suggested: a Local Committee, consisting of the local shire president, a local surveyor, and the president of the local Repatriation Committee. Such a committee would be able to carry out the work of testing the qualifications of an applicant much better than any central Board could do. If a similar system is adopted in the administration of this Bill it will mean that every individual soldier in Victoria who desires to be established in a home must satisfy the Commissioner as to his fitness by a personal visit to Melbourne.

Mr Groom:

– Under an Australian scheme with a similar provision, a man might have to come from Western Australia cr Queensland for the purpose.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– There is provision in this Bill to enable the Commissioner to delegate certain of his duties to de puty commissioners for the States. It is nonsense to send a soldier 200 or 300 miles away from people who know all about him to be examined by three or four men who know nothing about him. to decide whether he is qualified to have the benefits of the measure extended c> him.

Broadly speaking, I cordially support the Bill. I regret that such a measure was not introduced earlier, and I regret also that it should be debated in a thin House in the last hour of the session. There has been, in my judgment, altogether insufficient discussion in this Parliament of the subject of repatriation. I do not desire that Ministers should become restive under criticism, but we are going to criticise a scheme which may land this country in an expenditure of £100,000,000. It is our bounden duty, if we have any suggestions to make, to put them forward. I have made suggestions when I thought it right to do so, and I shall continue to follow that course.

I fear that we made a great blunder in the first place in handing over the administration of the scheme of repatriation to an outside body. I say nothing against the Government nominee. I do not think that any more qualified man for the work could be found in the Commonwealth; but in this Parliament we deliberately, in connexion with the repatriation scheme, voted to intrust the fulfilment of the nation’s obligations to six gentlemen, not one of whom we knew, and without one provision of the scheme being laid before us. It might be the most perfect which the ingenuity of man could evolve, but that did not absolve this Parliament from its cardinal obligation. We had the privilege recently of voting £1,000,000 in a lump sum for the general purposes of repatriation, without any honorable member knowing exactly what the money was required for. We shall be faced with an expenditure of at least £100,000,000 for broad acres, land settlement, housing scheme, and general purposes of repatriation, and this Parliament has not the power to alter what is proposed without the approval of the Government or the Repatriation Commission. The Commission has the power to spend money in whatever way it pleases, with the approval of the Executive. I did the best I could, in the small hours of the morning, to induce other honorable members to think with me on this subject, but the matter was put through without any sufficient criticism of the details of the scheme. Honorable members generally have not dealt with fundamentals, but have been concerned with tittle-tattle of dissatisfied soldiers. They have magnified it until a condition of irritability in connexion with this business exists throughout the country. I have not brought a single individual case under the notice of the House. I have dealt with such matters through the Department, and I have found there excellent officers ready to give every assistance possible. I have also found the Minister for Repatriation ever ready to consider proposals put to him; but that is no reason why, if I disagree on matters of principle with what is proposed, I should not offer my criticism in this House.

I desire briefly to review a few of our repatriation provisions. First of all, there is the excellent conception that if a man, by reason of his war services, is in broken health, he shall be restored to health at the expense of the Commonwealth. If he again falls into ill-health after returning to his home, the Government will take him in hand again, and continue their care of him until he is completely restored to health. We sometimes hear it said that the Commonwealth is doing nothing in the matter of repatriation. I entirely disagree with that. I say that there are magnanimous and magnificently designed proposals embodied in the Australian repatriation scheme. If a man, by reason of his war services, loses an arm, a leg, or an eye, and mechanical craft and skill can supply him with an artificial substitute, the Government undertake to permanently supply that substitute. If, by reason bf his war services, a soldier loses his sight or his mind, he becomes for all time the guest of the Commonwealth. The Minister for Repatriation has already established hostels, beautifully equipped and in good positions, in two of the capital cities, to my knowledge, which such a man may enter, as one of the country’s warriors, to remain all his life amongst other warriors who fought with him, and to be surrounded with all the care and attention that a grateful country can bestow upon him. If a soldier, by reason of his war services, has received some injury which incapacitates him from following his previous occupation in life, the Government undertake the whole obligation, by a system of vocational and technical training, of fitting him to follow an occupation of his choice, and from the start places him, in the matter of wages, in the same position as a journeyman in the trade he has chosen. Some men return fairly fit but a little shaky, and the Commonwealth gives them the first call on Australia’s work so far as it is humanly possible to do so. The whole of the people are behind the Government in believing that the soldier is entitled to preference for the nation’s work and we make an appeal to all citizens in a position to offer employment to give the soldier a like preference. The widow of a soldier with children is given a free grant of £25 for essential articles of furniture, and under this Bill an opportunity to establish’ a home. In the case of ‘ an artisan who may desire temporarily to follow his previous occupation, but is in need of some assistance, a grant of £10 is made for tools of trade. If a man desires to take up a more advanced course such as engineering, he can secure an advance up to £50 to provide himself with instruments. Regulation 60 under the Repatriation Act is the most important of the financial provisions, and under it a widow with one or more children may obtain an advance up to £150 to start her in a little business. I take it that the Minister for Repatriation will probably find, as the result of experience, that a woman with little children is not likely to make a success at the same time of a business and of her children. I believe SEat wiser counsels will suggest that, in such a case, the woman would be better in a home of her own if given the financial assistance she requires. If a returned soldier is incapacitated to the extent of being unable to engage in his usual employment he may obtain a maximum advance of £150, if he ie a married man. I take it that the reason why this provision is made for married men is that it is assumed that they have reached a stage when technical or vocational training would be too slow a business for them. A married man is therefore given financial assistance up to £150, and in special circumstances the Minister may grant him as much as £250 to set out on some small undertaking. I want honorable members to rid their minds of the idea that whenever reference is made to a “ business “ the proposal is to set up a returned soldier in a barber’s shop, a fancy-goods store, or something of the kind. The word covers undertakings of the widest character. With a capital of £250 a man can often make a good start in rural districts where there is room for expansion, although perhaps in the metropolitan area, where competition is very keen and the cost of stocking up would be great, he might not be able to do so.

The third class to whom advances may be made by a State Board consists of soldiers who, prior to enlistment, were dependent for their living upon businesses which they owned and conducted. This is intended to meet the case of a man who, perhaps, gave up a little business in order to enlist, or placed it in the care of some one who failed to make a success of it. By this means such men may be returned to the position they occupied before they enlisted. Where it can be proved to the satisfaction of the Board or the Minister that a man just prior to enlistment Was arranging to enter into business the Minister, 1 understand, approves of that man being brought under this part of the Act. I have endeavoured to define the bulk of the provisions made under this scheme for our soldiers. There are one or two minor provisions to which I have not referred, because I do not wish to weary honorable members; but I would point out that the Government have set out to establish great fundamental principles. The whole trouble in connexion with repatriation is not because of any failure in the conception of an adequate scheme on the part of the Government; it relates rather to the question of administration. Faced with the task of creating a huge mushroom organization to deal with 400,000 soldiers, involving perhaps an expenditure of. £100,000,000 in a year or two, the Government have had a difficult problem to deal with. No organization could be brought into existence within a few months to deal effectively with such an undertaking. It is not merely a Government job, it is a people’s job. We should have had in Australia long ago a more advanced organization to take up this work of repatriation. We should have a system of devolution. Honorable members may speak of it as “decentralization” if they please, but I hate the word, which is used for the most part by those who are not in favour of decentralization. There should be in every part of rural Australia bodies of earnest successful men - men who have made a success of life, who can teach the soldiers short cuts, show them how to eliminate waste, and take a personal interest in them. These local bodies should be at all times ready, in association with the Government scheme, to assist our men. To many of the critics of the Government I say, “ Get a move on yourself.” To our returned soldiers I offer a word of advice. I ask them and their great organization to have more consideration for the men who are striving night and day to do something for them, and not to join the band of critics who merely look on and do nothing but complain.

Mr Considine:

– They asked to be allowed to take part in this scheme through their own selected representatives.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I welcome the closest counsel between the soldiers’ organization and those charged with the administration of this very difficult undertaking. I am convinced that under a centralized system, with official control, repatriation will not only break down but will crumble because of its own weight.

I do not propose to make ‘ any reference to the recent resignation of the State Board and the Deputy Controller of Repatriation in Victoria further than to say that I believe that they were actuated in sending in their resignations by the same feeling of disgust that is entertained by many Local Committees. They are men of originality and ability anxious to do original things. They are men -anxious to have greater administrative powers, but they have been required to keep within certain prescribed regulations. If the Government are to have any success in connexion with, a system of devolution - a system of appointing Local Committees - they must give to those Local Committees such powers as will give them an interest in their work; they must clothe them with authority to carry out their work. Men of experience on these Local Committees are not prepared to meet week after week merely to consider red-tape letters from the Central Office or the Office of the Deputy Controller. As an example of what happens, let me remind honorable members that in the land scheme provision is made for an advance of £250 to a soldier who desires to settle on the land on approved share-farming terms. We have sought out suitable land for these men, and have endeavoured to settle them on it; but what happens ? Every item that the soldier requires has to be set out in detail in a form to be sent to the Central Office. If he wants to buy a horse, the name of the owner, the description and age of the horse, and the price to be paid for it must be given. The application is filled in with all these details, and two members of the Local Committee, perhaps, go with the soldier to inspect the horse or the farming implements that he proposes to purchase. If they approve of his proposal the recommendation of the Local Committee is sent on to the head office, and there it remains for weeks, and, perhaps, for months. Meantime the offer of the owner of the horse or implements to sell it is withdrawn. The soldier is disgusted, the vendor has got tired of waiting, the Local Committee is disgusted, and when approval is finally granted the committee have to set out in search of more horses and implements, and go through the whole process again. If the Government have any confidence in these Local Committees why are they not prepared to say to them, “ Here is an advance of £250. Put it into a trust account. . We trust you, under approved conditions, to do the best you can for this soldier.” I say to the Minister, “For heaven’s sake, “trust the men who are going to carry out this work, for otherwise you will have them doing what the State Board has already done. Give them power to act.”

It gives me. no pleasure to criticise the Minister or his Department. The Minister, I recognise, is face to face with intricate problems. ‘ He is charged with the carrying out of a’ gigantic scheme, and in the effort to create this organization he has, so to speak, his nose to the grindstone. We, on the other hand, are able to see what is going on outside. We are able to look on and to gauge his difficulties. I have come here to make suggestions for the improvement of the organization, and not to harass or irritate the Minister. No doubt he could advance many arguments from his own point of view against those which I have brought forward as to giving more power to Local Committees. I would remind him, however, that we have worked away with our small scheme, and have done something. At a welcome home tendered to some returned soldiers at Jeparit re-, Gently the chairman of the Local Board was able to tell the gathering that, although a grand lot of men had* enlisted from that district, even if every one of them returned, in addition ‘to the assistance which they could secure from the Government scheme, they would receive from the Local Committee £50 each to help him on his way. They had raised in the district between £5,000 and £6,000 for that purpose. These Local Committees are prepared to act as agents, and to carry on the whole of the devolutionary work of both the Federal and State schemes. Unless they are given more power, however, they will soon be a thing of the past. The members of such committees will decline to waste their time. They object to have soldiers saying of them, “You have not given me this, and you have not given me that.” They object to being blamed for delays for which they are not responsible. Now is the time for the Government to make an announcement. They have had a. fair opportunity to administer the scheme, and I would say to them, “ Call a big conference ‘’-

Mr SPEAKER:

– I am afraid that the honorable member is dealing more fully with the general question of repatriation than is regular under this Bill. I have allowed him a good deal of latitude because I recognise that, in the closing hours of the session, he will scarcely have another opportunity.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I recognise that, sir. My only desire is to offer practical advice to the Government.

Sitting suspended from 6-30 to 7Jj.5 p.m.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– In view of the fact that the Senate is awaiting the result of our deliberations, I should have thought it the duty of the Whips to let members know the position. Then, perhaps, some of us, although we have for days resisted opportunities to speak on other matters in order to discuss this question, might have cut our remarks short. However, I wish to bring under the notice of the Government the fact that an absolutely new. phase of repatriation confronts them. Up to the present there are approximately 70,000 ill or maimed men, and the Department has had to deal with only that proportion of them who have seen fit to apply for assistance. On the general demobilization we shall have to deal with a great body of over 200,000 fit men, who have been toned up in the Old Country, have had some preparation for technical training in the Old Country, and are ready, in “ good nick “ after a sea voyage, to once more start in citizen life. . The repatriation schemes, both Federal and State, have not up to the present shown a capacity to grapple in a business-like way with the problem that will have to be faced on the return of our fit troops.

Mr Higgs:

– A sample of whom we have seen in the fine, healthy Anzacs just returned on leave.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– That, is so. These men wilT not wish to hang round till an overworked centralized body can find them opportunities. I do not find fault with the repatriation scheme as I do with the absence of sound business methods necessary to enable every case to be dealt with promptly and sympathetically. I forego more severe criticism, because we are engaged in a great experimental scheme, but the experimental stage should now be over, and we ought to be able to put our house in order.

So that I may not delay other honorable members who desire to speak, I shall conclude by summarizing what I have already said. In view of the termination of the war, and the early return of our fit soldiers, the Government should revise the. form of financial assistance that is being rendered, so as to bring within the operation of the scheme the great body of men who will return uninjured. For these we have made no provision whatever, except for those who happen to come, within the housing scheme. I desire to drive home the point that the repatriation scheme, when drafted, dealt with the then pressing problem of how to provide for the disabled and sick. There is practically an entire absence of any provision for an unmarried man who returns fit, after four and a half years abroad, and who has missed the emoluments of those years and all the chances of advancement iri private life. We have not prepared to meet the termination of the war, and the return of - tens of thousands of able-bodied men, who desire to make some step forward in life. There is nothing harder than to have around one half-a-dozen returned men, proper subjects for assistance, and to have to discriminate between them. All have struck their blow and played a noble part, and the discrimination is too wide between the fit married or single man, as against the injured and sick, who were the first to return. I ask for a review of the provision in this regard, in order that the Minister, as I think he might well do, may enlarge the scope of the scheme, so as to include a new class of beneficiaries. If that is not done” we shall only create disappointment and discontent.

As to the Bill, its administration will require most diligent care and good organization to avoid a boom in land values, and in the building trade, and to prevent the crafty jobber picking up valuable sites within the metropolitan area. No doubt the building trade will organize itself thoroughly; indeed, I believe that the most active industry in the Commonwealth for the next five or ten years will be that of building. This will give employment to great numbers of men, but I certainly do not wish to see connected with this repatriation scheme any boom in values on a wrong basis. Anything that honorable members can do to help the Government in their difficult task it is their duty to do. I do not propose to discuss the provisions of the Bill further, but I must say that, on the whole, I think it a magnificent effort to provide homes in this country for the men who have fought to defend it.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon W Elliot Johnson:

– Before the debate proceeds further I should like to say, without any desire to interrupt honorable members, that the discussion is taking a much wider scope than is covered by the provisions of the Bill. I recognise that honorable members have suffered some disability in not having had an opportunity to discuss the whole question of repatriation; but, while I do not wish to unduly limit debate, or, in this case, to insist on its being confined to the Bill itself, still the latitude allowed cannot go to the extent of covering the whole question of repatriation. I merely ask honorable members generally to bear this in mind, and to refrain from exploring fields of debate too remotely removed from the scope and purpose of the Bill. My desire is to allow as much latitude as is reasonable under the circumstances.

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

.- I owe a grudge against the Senate, and now I have an opportunity to make that Chamber wait for sixty-five solid minutes. Even if I keep strictly to the provisions of the Bill there is sufficient pabulum to enable any one who takes an interest in the subject to occupy the attention of the House for that length of time. Briefly, I indorse all the remarks of my leader (Mr. Tudor). This is a question in which party should play no part whatever; and the Government are to be commended on the introduction of the Bill. If it does not realize our splendid expectations of it, I have full faith that this or any other Government will bring in an amending measure. I think my sentiments on this subject are perhaps best expressed in the following words from the Bulletin: -

Mates !

We did our bit.

It’s up to you to carry on -

Toprove Australia worthy - not of us,

But of our sacrifice !

So long !

These few lines express the hope that I have in this Bill. The soldier’s child is the best child Australia can have, and it is our duty to give it a fairshow. Every child that comes into the world has the primal right, above State control, or even parents’ control, to live with a chance of growing up a strong and healthy adult. when a father and mother have paid their debt to their country - a debt only surpassed by the supreme sacrifice - and are rearing a large family on limited means, I do think we lack real patriotism when we stop rendering them assistance at the fifth child. That is an opinion I have expressed several times, and on the present occasion I leave the matter there. In a pamphlet entitled The Great War, by T. G. Adamson, which has been kindly handed to me by. the honorable member for Barrier (Mr. Considine), I find the following words: -

If even one girl reaches the streets without every effort being made to save her, we, the people, are unworthy of the sacrifices made.

I indorse that sentiment thoroughly -

About 51,000 Australians have died already that we might live. We must now count our children as a miser counts his gold. We not alone must best Germany at war, but we must beat her commercially, or all is in vain.

As to the Bill, I wish the Minister, when seeking for a man to manage this great housing scheme, would remember Mr. W. T. Thomas, of the Workers’ Homes Board, Western Australia. I had the pleasure of visiting the places that have been built by the Board at Narrogin; and I only regret that I have not with me the photographs I took of these splendidly managed and comfortable homes. This scheme has been in operation in Western Australia for some eight or ten years, and Mr. Thomas has shown himself to be just the man for the position of manager, for he is courteous, kindly, and patient with all those with whom he is brought in contact. I think I shall forget the grudge against the

Senate and bring my remarks to a conclusion by once more complimenting the Government on their introduction of the Bill. I hope the result -will prove beneficial and free our soldiers’ widows and dependants, and the soldiers themselves, from the fear of the landlord’s knock.

Mr LISTER:
Corio

.- At this late hour, after a very strenuous week’s work, I shall follow the excellent example set by the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney), and be brief in my remarks on this Bill. I compliment the Government upon having introduced a measure which will do a great deal to make the man who has fought for his country take a great interest in its affairs. The honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. McGrath), in his opening remarks, made a reference to broken promises, which has frequently been made in this Chamber. Public men make many promises on the platform which are not fulfilled. My mind goes back to a couple of years ago, just after I returned from the Front. At that time I heard many of our public men say that the people of Australia could not do too much for the man who had fought for his country. I have never heard any one express an opinion to the contrary. No Government would be adversely criticised for doing too much for the man who has done bo much for his country. I heartily approve of this Bill, but I hope that considerably more sympathy will be shown in its administration than has been displayed in the administration of other measures which have passed this House. The War Pensions Act is one which I have in mind. I do not blame those who have, to administer the War Pensions Act so much as I blame Parliament for having restricted the discretion of those who are called upon to administer its provisions, and I hope that the same mistake will not be made in regard to this Bill.

The country is treating those men who wish to settle on the land very well, the financial assistance they are receiving being of a very liberal character. Under this Bill the amount of the advance will naturally be more limited. Nevertheless it is proposed to make an advance up to £700, if necessary, for the purpose of building a soldier’s home, and the money will be lent under exceptionally easy, terms. The Australian soldier, as I know him, does not look for charity, or expect to get something for nothing. He is quite prepared to undertake whatever responsibility may be thrown upon him by this Bill if he acepts the benefits given by it.

I hope that those who are responsible for the administration of this scheme will make certain that no home will be built on a block of land less than a quarter of an acre in size. In this way the conditions which obtain in many of the congested areas in metropolitan districts will be obviated. My suggestion, if carried out, would have a beneficial effect in many ways. It would enable a soldier to devote his spare hours to beautifying the property that was eventually to become his own. Every returned soldier who secures a home for himself will naturally take a greater interest in the affairs of the country by reason of the fact that he has some stake in it.

The style of building to be erected, and the class of material to be used, are matters which do not concern us very much, but there are many industries which may be affected. In the Corio district, one of the finest sawmills in Australia had to be dismantled because it could not be made to pay, owing to the fact that the company which erected it were obliged to treat timber brought all the way from Siberia-. There is an abundance of timber in Australia which can be milled, and those who have had the experience of sawmilling which I have had, know that it is an industry which is capable of giving employment to a great many returned soldiers. There is a possibility that small centres will grow up around our sawmills, in which returned soldiers employed will be able, with the assistance granted under the provisions of this Bill, to provide themselves with homes built of material which they have perhaps worked up for themselves.

I hope that special care will be taken in the selection of those who are to administer the Act. On one occasion a returned soldier, with a little capital, expressed a desire to embark upon a certain industry, and submitted to the Local Committee an application for assistance.

His application was strongly recommended by the Local Committee, but, as a clerk at the counter in the Repatriation Department took it upon himself to pass judgment upon the application, it did not go any further. Subsequently the soldier was approached by the chairman of the Local Committee, and asked how he had fared with his application. He pointed out that nothing had been done in the matter, because he had been advised by the officer at the counter not to proceed with it any further, as the Government would not consider such a proposition. The chairman of the Committee, who is a Melbourne solicitor, although he lives in the country, immediately communicated with me, and I got into touch with Senator Millen. The result was that the Minister expressed his willingness to give the soldier an opportunity to put his case before him, and the officer at the counter, I understand, was suitably dealt with; For a man who would act as he did, and take upon himself the responsibility that he assumed, dismissal was not more than he deserved.

The Local Committee at Geelong comprises some of the best business men in the city. Some of its members are generously giving up the whole of their time gratis to this particular work. Yet they are handicapped in very many ways. They are not even allowed to pay a soldier’s fare to Melbourne without having to go to the trouble of filling in numerous forms, and complying with other Departmental requirements. The delays caused by this red-tapism are not conducive to a very good feeling among the men who apply for assistance, and I hope that a great deal of it will be avoided in the administration of this measure, so that the returned men may approach the responsible officers, and have their business expedited in a way which, apparently, is foreign to many Government Departments at the present time.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– If the Minister wants to get the benefit of the assistance of Local Committees for his new demobilization scheme, he should make an immediate announcement as to his attitude towards them. Otherwise the members of the Committees will not continue to act on them.

Mr LISTER:

– I know that there is great dissatisfaction among many of the members of these Committees. At present we have on them business men capable of advising the Minister, and anxious and willing to do anything they possibly can, within reason, for the returned soldier. These men are becoming dissatisfied because they have absolutely no power. If the Government desire that hearty co-operation which is necessary they ought to widen the powers of the Local Committees. Repatriation is the most pressing problem with which the country is confronted, and if it is found necessary, as I think it will be, to amend the Act, generous though it is, I hope we shall be given an opportunity of dealing with the matter soon after the House reassembles, so that we may have some chance of coping successfully with the enormous quantity of work that lies ahead.

Sir ROBERT BEST:
Kooyong

– I join with the honorable member for Corio in the hope that the Government will very early after Parliament reassembles give the House an opportunity to deal in a full and comprehensive manner with this all-important question. In the closing moments of the session it is quite impossible to deal with the subject as completely as we should like to do, and, therefore, our remarks must be restricted to a few features of the Bill before us. I shall content myself, therefore, with stating my chief points without elaboration. I offer my sincere congratulation to the Government on the introduction of this measure. The building of homes for soldiers is a very important branch of repatriation, and one which I hope will be developed in every way possible. This scheme can be of great advantage in re-establishing the soldier in civil life. For the most part this Bill is founded on the South Australian Act, which has been successful so far as it has gone, and gives us some indication of the probable usefulness of the machinery we are setting up. One feature I wish to emphasize is the vital importance of the Government encouraging local effort. I have nothing but the highest approval for the splendid work which has been done in the building of soldiers’ homes in New South Wales. Dr. Arthur and those associated with him formed what is called the Voluntary Workers’ Association, and their splendid efforts have resulted already in the building of between 200 and 300 homes. The Government assigned to the association about 40 acres of land on which they erected 170 additional homes, and they are encouraged to hope that later on they will get a further 150 acres on which they will build about 500 homes. All that is the -result of voluntary effort, and I suggest that when we reach clause 39 the Minister should accept an amendment to provide for subsidizing local schemes for the building of homes.

Nothing that has been said regarding Local Committees over-emphasizes the necessity for an important alteration in the attitude of the Central Office towards those bodies. We do not realize fully the vast store of energy that can be mobilized and utilized by proper organization. Their patriotic work during the war has taught us what these committees are capable of doing, and now that they are accustomed to local endeavour of the kind and are keenly interested in the welfare of the soldier, we must be careful that nothing is done to damp their enthusiasm. About 500 Local Committees have been formed in various places, but for various reasons they are in revolt. Their main complaint is that their powers are unduly limited, that they are allowed no discretion, and they are obliged to regard themselves as the merest cyphers in the scheme. They do not feel encouraged to put forward their best efforts, and thereby much of the good they are capable of doing is lost. It will be the duty of the Minister to take into consideration the best means of more effectively utilizing^ the Local Committees in repatriation work. If the energy and enthusiasm that are present in the Local Committees were properly organized they would be capable of rendering valuable help in many directions. For instance, they would be only too glad to watch over the best interests of the children of fallen soldiers, and none would be more qualified to do so. Whilst

I admit that there are constitutional difficulties in the way of the Commonwealth assuming direct control over any of these children, yet the control of the purse is a powerful factor, and I am sure that if the Local Committees are organized by the Department as they should be, they will give substantial assistance in caring for the children and other dependants of soldiers. The honorable member for Wannon (Mr. Rodgers) and the honorable member for Corio (Mr. Lister) have already mentioned the extraordinary fact that soldiers must go to various centres to give evidence of their qualifications. None are better able than the Local Committees to determine the qualifications of these men. That duty should be assigned to them, and I believe it would be readily undertaken.

I hope that the Minister will utilize to the fullest extent the Credit Foncier branch of the State Savings Bank. The bank has efficient machinery already available for rendering assistance in the erection of homes, and is able tb carry out this class of work most successfully, and at a minimum cost in administration. Nothing is more appalling than the prospect of the growth of a large staff in connexion with the administration of this Bill. We should take full advantage of the machinery already available, and of the experience and skill of the bank’s officers.

I acknowledge the splendid devotion of the Minister (Senator Millen) to the colossal task of repatriation. He is animated by an ambition to achieve the very best results, and if some of us differ from him in regard to his methods he must realize that it is with a desire, not to discount his efforts, but to aid him in his task. Most valuable work has been already accomplished, as has been stated by the honorable member for Wannon. But the Minister does not fully realize that the most effective method of carrying out the repatriation scheme is by a system of decentralization rather than of centralization. I much regret the strained relations which have developed between the State Boards and Local Committees and the Minister. This was inevitable under the existing centralizing system. “We had in Victoria a singularly able and experienced State Board, and a capable Deputy Controller. But, because of the methods of the central office and its attempts to govern by regulation, because of the harassing limitations that have been imposed, and the denial of any discretion or opportunity for the State Board to give the fullest help of which they are capable, the Minister has. been deprived of the services of able and experienced men, who are anxious to contribute to the success of the repatriation scheme. The State Boards and Local Committees have a great advantage in the fact that they are brought into immediate touch with, the individual soldier, and, as the success of the scheme depends largely upon a sympathetic individual help to the soldier, it is essential that we should have that decentralization which I have indicated.

I am glad that the Bill provides for the appointment of a Commissioner who shall be a high-class officer. That is calculated to produce skilled and responsible management, together with a continuous and sustained policy. Those elements are essential, and I hope that the system of management by Commissioners will be extended in other directions. I have no desire that the management of repatriation shall be completely divorced from Parliament, but I do desire that the administration shall be placed in the hands of high-class and experienced men, whose duty will be to give the whole of their time and thought to the big business they are called upon to develop and control. When we consider the vast area they will have to cover and the duties they will have to perform unless they can give the whole of their thought and attention to the business and are specially expert, they will be unable to do justice to their task.

The land settlement of soldiers has been referred to, and I am sorry that I have time only to make a passing reference to it. The State system of land settlement adopted up to the present has been anything but a success, and on its present lines the result could not be otherwise. The object of the land settlement of soldiers must be to prevent the drift from the country into the cities, and especially to encourage increased production. I am opposed to the view that the best results are to be obtained by the resumption of high class land. Speaking generally, it simply means displacing experienced men and substituting less experienced; this means decreased, and not increased, production. Fortunately, in Australia we have vast areas of land which may be utilized for the establishment of an extensive system of land settlement for soldiers. A friend of mine possessing the greatest experience and skill in this matter gives me the assurance that the key to the position will be the development of settlement in the direction of sheep-grazing and wool-growing. We have large pastoral areas that might be made immediately available for this purpose. I believe that we have something like 2,000,000 square miles of suitable country, with a rainfall of upwards of 10 inches per annum. It is essential that a broad and comprehensive scheme shall be formulated forthwith, coupled with a system of developmental railways and works for water supply and storage for domestic purposes. We cannot too rapidly push on with the Murray Waters scheme. An agreement to carry out that scheme was entered into three years ago, but it has not been gone on with as rapidly as it might have been. The completion of that scheme will make available vast areas of land on which it will be possible to settle thousands of soldiers, and I therefore press upon the Government the urgency of carrying out that scheme as rapidly as possible.

Although I - introduced the system of closer settlement in Victoria, and may be regarded as the father of the system here, and whilst I am in full sympathy with it, I am satisfied that it will not solve the repatriation problem. ,In New South Wales and Victoria during the fourteen years since 1904, only some 7,000 settlers have been placed upon the land, at the vast expense of £10,000,000. Only to-day we received a report on the subject of land settlement of soldiers, in which the statement is made -

This phase of repatriation work is carried ont by all the States, except Queensland, under agreement with the Commonwealth Government. The returns received show that 5,858 applications have been received, and that 3,508 have been approved, of which number 1,754 were allotted blocks.

What an extraordinary tale that is ! During the last two or three years all that we have been able to do for the returned soldier by this process has been the settlement of 1,754 men upon the land, although 3,508 of the applicants for land were qualified men. I think that some explanation of that failure is necessary. In Victoria there has recently been resumed 70,196 acres, at a cost of something like £1,000,000, representing about £13 per acre. Nine hundred and seventythree applicants for blocks were well qualified, and yet only 604 of these have been duly placed upon the land. We cannot contemplate with equanimity what will take place when the remaining 200,000 men return to Australia and 50,000 of them expect to be setttled on the land. We are totally unprepared. I hope that the Government will give attention to the points I have emphasized, and that a fuller opportunity will later on be afforded honorable members to more completely consider this all-important problem.

Mr LECKIE:
Indi

.- I look upon this Bill as the most important measure which has been before the House this session. It offers some opportunities for the fulfilment of the promises which we have made to our soldiers that we’ would do our best for them on their return from the Front. It is unfortunate that we should be asked to put it through as practically the last measure to be considered this session. I am warned that if it is delayed it is possible that the benefits it proposes may not be extended to our returned soldiers for some considerable time. I should like to suggest that if this has been a financial session, next session must be devoted to dealing very fully with repatriation. We have had victory, and the waT is won, and the redemption of our promises to our fighting men is now the paramount duty of Parliament and country.

The total expenditure involved under this Bill may run into £70,000,000; yet we are asked to put it through with a couple of hours’ discussion. In the circumstances, I shall place upon the shoulders of the Ministry the responsibility for this measure. But I want to sound one grave note of warning. The honorable member for Kooyong expressed . his regret at the small number of soldiers who have been settled on the land. I am inclined to think, on the contrary, that it is not a bad sign, because, after long experience in the country - having during the greater part of my life carried on farming pursuits, and not in a big way - I want to say that under the conditions of land settlement at present, at any rate in Victoria, where land has to be acquired at the market value, only a very small percentage of our returned soldiers, even though they may be trained to country pursuits, are likely to make a success of it. We might look for success in places like Mildura and other irrigated areas, where land can be secured at a comparatively low price, but if our returned soldiers are to be settled on land which we have to go into the open market to buy, a very small percentage will be able to make a success of it. Unless the Government keep a sharp eye on the business, and see that none but the best land is made available for the settlement of soldiers, that settlement may result disastrously. Whilst I am afraid that the success of land settlement by soldiers, so far as Victoria and the more closelysettled States are concerned, is foredoomed to partial failure, the spectacle of men being held up for months waiting for blocks is not very gratifying to those who believe that the returned soldiers should get everything that we can give them.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee:

Clause 1 (Short title).

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- I ask the Minister in charge of the measure whether it is the intention of the Government to make the cost of running the scheme a charge upon the properties, and repayable with interest. That is the system which the Victorian Government aTe adopting.

The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

-Order !< The honorable mem- ber’s remarks are not relevant to the clause.

Mr Groom:

– The honorable member can refer to that matter later on.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 2 and 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 -

In this Act, unless the contrary intention appears, …. “Female dependant” means the widow of an Australian soldier, or, in the case of a deceased Australian soldier who was not married, his mother, provided that -

she is a widow, and was, prior to the enlistment of the soldier, dependent upon him: or

her husband is so incapacitated as to be unable to contribute materially to her support…..

Mr LECKIE:
Indi

.- Referring to the definition of “female dependant,” unless matters are carefully watched, it may be found to be dangerous. Most of the widows of soldiers will be young women, and it may be hoped that the greater number of them will marry again. A young widow has a home built for her under this Bill, and she immediately gets married, and some one who did not go to the war at all will derive the benefit of this measure. I wish to direct attention to the importance of this matter.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- There is another phase of the question raised by the honorable member for Indi. The widowed mother of a soldier may not have been a widow when he left for the Front, but while he has been away her husband may have died, and she may have been dependent for some time upon the soldier. What will be the position of the widowed mother of a soldier in such circumstances?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is assuming that the boy dies.

Mr TUDOR:

– Yes. Would the mother in such a case be a “ female dependant “ within the meaning of this clause?

Mr Groom:

-No. Under the clause, as it reads, she would not be.

Mr TUDOR:

– Is that fair?

Mr Groom:

– The object of the Bill is to deal only with soldiers and their dependants. I shall, however,refer the honorable member’s suggestion to the Minister.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 5 to 11 agreed to.

Clause 12 (Office of Commissioner - how vacated) .

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- Under a previous clause we have provided that the Commissioner may be suspended. Is there power to suspend an Acting Commissioner ?

Mr Groom:

– Yes, under clause 10.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 13-

  1. The Commissioner shall receive a salary of One thousand five hundred pounds a year…..
Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

– For technical reasons I move -

That all the words after the word “ receive” be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ such salary as the Governor-General determines.”

The intention is only to pay a salary of £1,500 as specified in the clause, but, for technical reasons, we propose that the amount shall be fixed by the GovernorGeneral in Council.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– That is not a fair re muneration. This man will be the manager of the biggest building society in Australia.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I have no objection to the amendment, provided that the Minister gives us a definite assurance that the salary to be fixed by the Governor-General in Council will not exceed £1,500 per annum.

Mr Groom:

– It will not. This amendment is not moved to enable an increased salary to be paid.

Mr TUDOR:

– I realize that, as the honorable member for Wannon (Mr. Rodgers) has suggested, the success or failure of this scheme will depend upon the class of man we appoint to this position.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– In addition to arranging for the erection of buildings, the Commissioner will have to finance the whole scheme.

Mr TUDOR:

– And purchase land from some of the shrewdest men in the business. This State has experienced the effects of a land boom, and, unless a very able man is appointed to this position, we may have trouble in connexion with the scheme. I received to-day a copy of the report of the Commission appointed by the South Australian Government to investigate land purchases made in that State in connexion with the settlement of returned soldiers, and, as I heard one gentleman put it, land purchased there for farmers was in some cases “too wet for farming and too dry for fishing.” It will be for the Government to see that they appoint the most capable man available.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Then do not confine them to the payment of a salary not exceeding £1,500.

Mr Groom:

– I promise that the salary to be fixed will not exceed £1,500.

Mr TUDOR:

– No larger salary will be paid until the proposal has been brought before the House, and an opportunity afforded for its discussion? The Minister promises that.

Mr Groom:

– That is so.

Mr TUDOR:

– I am satisfied with that assurance.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 14 agreed to.

Clause 15 (Staff of Commissioner).

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

.- I asked the other evening whether it was proposed to abolish the Public Service Commissioner, since this Bill provided that the appointment of employees “under this Act” should be taken out of his hands. I was led to believe by the Acting Prime Minister that there was no such intention on the part of the Government, but sub-clause 2 of this clause provides that -

Officers employed under this Act shall not be subject to the Commonwealth Public Service Act 1002-1917, and shall hold office during pleasure only.

Are these officers to be subject to pass a qualifying examination, or will Ministers and members of Parliament generally be able to go to the Commissioner and ask that this man or that be put on ?

Mr Boyd:

– If the Commissioner has anything to do with the matter, he will take care that only capable men are engaged.

Mr HIGGS:

– “We want to know whether there is to be any examination, or whether we are to have political appointments like that of Mr. D. J. Gilbert, ex- editor of the Labour World, who, through the good offices of Mr. J. C. “Watson, and the friendship of the Prime Minister, bas been appointed to a position which he is not actually fitted to fill. I believe he is a failure in that position.

Mr Groom:

– The honorable member’s statement is incorrect. The Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) had nothing to do with tie appointment.

Mr HIGGS:

– What qualifications has Mr. Gilbert for the position to which he has been appointed? Why should we cut out the Public Service Commissioner in this case?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Consider the class of men we shall want. We shall require the services of architects, builders, and others.

Mr HIGGS:

– Have we not architects in the Commonwealth Service?

Mr Sampson:

– The Commissioner in this case will stand in the same position as the Governor of the Commonwealth Bank, but will have less than one-half his salary.

Mr HIGGS:

– He will not be as good a man as. the Governor of the Commonwealth Bank. I personally favour large salaries, and hope that employers here will adopt the American system of paying a good man a good salary. I have heard of a salary of £50,000 a year being paid in America.

Mr Boyd:

– The honorable member would be surprised to hear what salaries are being paid some captains of industry in Australia.

Mr HIGGS:

– Some of them receive up to £3,500 per annum, I understand; but the star salaries paid here are small compared with those obtaining in America. There must be a reason for excluding these employees from the operations of the Public Service Act. The clause does not provide for any test or examination.

Mr Sinclair:

– Does not the honorable member realize that many of these employees will be temporary servants?

Mr HIGGS:

– No. In Queensland, as the honorable member is aware, a Workmen’s Dwelling Act has been in operation for the last nine years. This Bill will be in force for many years. An expenditure of £50,000,000 is contemplated, and that will carry us over a very long period. We should provide for something in the nature of an examination, but I do not think we ought to be so rigid as we are under the Public Service Act with regard to the age of candidates for employment. The Commonwealth Public Service seems to be a kind of close preserve for boys of sixteen, who may enter as messengers and work up to higher positions. Good luck to them, I say; but if a man of thirty or forty years of age can pass the necessary examination, then, as the Leader of the Opposition has suggested, he should be allowed to enter the Service.

No doubt the Bill is being rushed through, and, though we have every ground for complaint, we dare not offer any obstruction or criticism that might delay its passage. The Ministry, however, must see the danger there is in having an inefficient staff.

Mr BAMFORD:
Herbert

.- I should be sorry if the selection of the Commissioner were left to the Public Service Commissioner. In my opinion, the person who makes the selection ought himself to have some technical knowledge ; and I would much rather see it left to the intelligence of the Cabinet. I think the salary to be paid the Commissioner is absurdly small. If we require the services of a good man, we must pay an adequate salary; and certainly a man with all the necessary qualifications for this office could do far better for himself outside the Government Service. Am I to understand that, all things being equal, returned soldiers are to have preference in the selection of the members of the staff?

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

.- .The Bill does not provide for preference in that way. The matter is lef t to the Commissioner, but presumably he will follow the law that operates throughout the Commonwealth Service, and definitely provides for preference to returned soldiers.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I agree with the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Higgs), when he says that there is no security of tenure. As to what the honorable member for Herbert (Mr. Bamford) has said,- 1 take it that the Commissioner will be selected by the Government, who will take the responsibility for his appointment. By this clause, the Commissioner is allowed to select his staff, the members of which will be employed during his pleasure. I have a very vivid recollection of what happens in other countries, and what happened in Australia when there were no Public Service Acts, and persons were appointed to the Public Service simply because they were friends of Ministers. Honorable members who have had any experience of public Departments will admit that the men who have won their way into the Service, and into the higher positions, are much superior to some of the older officers who were appointed by political influence. I am afraid that by means of this clause we are leaving a loop-hole for political influence to creep in.

Mr Groom:

– There is the same method of appointment under our Railways Act.

Mr TUDOR:

– That is quite true, but I am not sure that it is a wise method. I believe in control by Parliament - I do not think a Department should be entirely divorced from Parliament - though I do not believe in members of Parliament having opportunities to secure appointments for their friends.

Mr Groom:

– This clause does not make that possible:

Mr TUDOR:

– It could make it possible.

Mr Groom:

– It is the Commissioner who makes the appointments.

Mr TUDOR:

– I do not think I am breaking any confidence when I say that one day I had a conversation on this subject with the late Public Service Commissioner, Mr. McLachlan, who was an absolutely just and fair man, and as fine an officer as we ever had in the Service. We were speaking, about the probable effects of the abolishing of the Public Service Commissioner in favour of political control, and I told him. that, so far as I was concerned, I would not stop in office five minutes under such circumstances; indeed, I do not think I would stop in Parliament five minutes. We all know that in America the whole body of postal officials has been changed with the party in power; and I only hope we shall never see such conditions here. I have a fear, as I say, that this clause may mean the thin end of the wedge for the introduction of political and Ministerial control.

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

.- I desire to put on record my protest against that part of the clause which gives the Commissioner sole control and discretion in the appointment of his officers. It has to me somewhat of a sinister significance, taken with some observations I heard quite recently from the PostmasterGeneral in regard to the altered policy in appointing officers’ in his Department. This new Department is likely to have more than a brief life, and to involve the appointment of a large staff, and- it is a matter of great anxiety to find that the Minister proposes to abolish the system’ which gives the public some guarantee that every officer appointed is proficient according to some accepted standard, and that he is appointed, altogether apart from any political or personal influence, entirely on his merits. I cannot understand why we are departing from that principle here. It does not tend to make the life of a member of Parliament any pleasanter when these appointments become largely a matter of patronage, and it does not tend to make the public confidence any. greater when the influences and the reasons which move a Commissioner in making appointments are undisclosed. It seems curious that we should expressly exclude from this Bill the operation of the Public Service Act. We have already, unhappily, only too large a temporary staff of employees in the Public Service, especially the Defence Department, who are appointed without examination, and whose appointments we know are largely a matter of patronage. Yet we are extending that system by means of this Bill ; and I desire to place on record my protest, because I think it is subversive of the best interests of any Department that its officers should be appointed by any one man without any guarantee of their special qualifications,- or that .the appointments are made without any fear or favour to any individual or class of individuals in the community.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 16 agreed to.

Clause 17 -(Power to erect houses or to enter into contracts for erection).

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

.- At this hour I will not delay the Committee long; but I would like the Minister to bring under the notice of the Commissioner the necessity, in connexion with the proposal to erect dwellings under this Bill, of offering a prize, or a number of prizes, for modern dwellings. In Queensland there has been a Workmen’s Dwelling Act in operation for nine years, and it has proved of great advantage. In many towns, where formerly one saw a collection of huts, there can now be seen new homes erected under that Act that are a credit to the place, and have vastly improved the appearance of many villages and towns. They have verandahs, are properly ventilated, and, with some pretensions to ornate appearance, prove of great advantage to their occupiers.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– I understand that the competitive design was not a success at Daceyville, in New South Wales.

Mr HIGGS:

– That may be; but I SUK.:gest that the Government might follow the example of Queensland, where there are about forty designs, from which a person who desires to build a home may select. The principle has been adopted in places like Brisbane, and extended to Rockhampton.

Mr Groom:

– The plans are adapted to climate and conditions.

Mr HIGGS:

– Of course, there would be one plan for the cold parts of Victoria, and another for semi-tropical districts. The plans ought to be printed, and copies sent to almost every township where a soldier is likely to settle. A man who settles perhaps 1,000 miles from Brisbane, or Sydney, or Perth, ought to have the same opportunities, as far as the Government can give them, as the man in the city. Only in that way can we succeed in making country life attractive. I am sure the Minister appreciates the value of the Workers Homes Act in Queensland, and the advantage of having numerous plans. There, is no doubt that the architects of Australia can provide a variety of beautiful plans for cottages.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 18 agreed to.

Clause 1.9 (Sale of dwelling houses).

Amendment (by Mr. Groom) proposed -

Th at the following new sub-clauses be in serted : - “ (8) The cost and expense of any transfer or mortgage executed in pursuance of this section shall be borne by the purchaser. “ (9) In this section ‘Capital cost’ includes the price paid for the land and dwelling house, and such sum as the Commissioner determines as sufficient to cover the cost of acquisition and subdivision, together with interest on expenditure for purchase of the land and purchase or erection of the dwelling house up to the time of the sale of the dwellinghouse “.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- What rate of interest is fixed, and have the Government in mind a fixed rate for the repayment of capital?

Mr Groom:

– Yes.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Is it intended that there shall be compulsory residence?

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

– The intention is that the person who buys a house shall buy it as a home for himself; but, of course, he may leave his family there, while he moves about, it may be, to obtain employment.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Is there compulsory residence as in land settlement in the States ?

Mr GROOM:

– We could not compel a man to live in his house; but he buys it as his home. There is not a condition of residence such as that for the purpose of land settlement.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 20 (Advances to acquire land, &c.).

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- The clause allows the Commissioner to make an advance to any eligible person for the purpose of enabling him “ to complete a partially-erected dwelling-house owned by him.” In many cases, those who will be eligible live in poor, dilapidated places, which might well be painted, done up, and repaired.

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

– If any structural alteration were made, the Commissioner could make an advance under paragraph e, which provides for the enlarging of a dwelling-house, but “ repair “ is too indefinite a word to insert. The object of the Act is to provide homes, or, where the existing homes are too small, to enlarge them.

Mr Higgs:

– It would be better to take persons out of a poor, dilapidated house, and give them a new one.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 21 to 23 agreed to.

Clause 24 (Conditions of grant of advance).

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.- The person for whom the house is being erected should have some say in its arrangement. Stereotyped plans should not be forced on those who apply to the Commissioner for assistance.

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

– The clause presupposes that the plans and specifications of the proposed dwellinghouse have been submitted to the Commissioner. The honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Higgs) has suggested that persons may be glad of suggestions or plans.

Mr Higgs:

– There may be no architect in the district in which the house is to be built.

Mr GROOM:

– Exactly.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 25 agreed to.

Clause 26-

No advance shall be made on any property which is encumbered by any previous mortgage or charge, other than a mortgage or charge under this Act, but a second mortgage may be taken as collateral security.

Amendment (by Mr. Groom) agreed to-

That the words, “ but a second mortgage may be taken as collateral security “ be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ unless the advance is applied for the purpose of discharging the previous mortgage or charge.”

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 27 agreed to.

Clause 28 (Direction of Commissioner as to making of advances, &c.).

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- It seems to me that the clause places too great a power in the hands of one man.

The Commissioner “ may, at his discretion, refuse to enter into a contract,” or “ to make an advance,” and the applicant, though eligible, will have no right of appeal, even to the Minister.

Mr GROOM:
Minister for “Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

– The Commissioner, in administering the Act, will have to delegate his functions to subordinates, and if an applicant is dissatisfied with the decisions of any of these, he may appeal to the Commissioner.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 29 and30 agreed to.

Clause 31 -

  1. Every purchaser and every borrower shall, until the whole amount of purchase money or advance due by him has been paid or repaid, keep in good and tenantable repair, to the satisfaction of the Commissioner, all buildings, fences, fixtures, and improvements upon the land comprised in the contract of sale, mortgage, or other security.
  2. If, after the expiration of two months’ notice in writing by the Commissioner, any purchaser or borrower has not complied with the requirements of this section -

    1. the Commissioner may enter upon the property and effect all repairs . . .
    2. the Commissioner may enter upon and take possession . . .

Amendment (by Mr. Groom) agreed to-

That the words “ the expiration of two months” be omitted.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 32-

  1. As between the Commissioner and the purchaser or borrower with respect to the land or land and dwelling-house forming the subject of a contract of sale, mortgage, or other security, the following condition shall be imposed, so long as any money due to the Commissioner under the contract of sale, mortgage, or other security remains unpaid, namely - theland or land and dwelling-house, as the case may be, shall not be let or sublet by the purchaser or borrower without the consent, in writing, of the Commissioner ; and every lease, sub-lease, or agreement entered into or made in contravention of the provisions of this section shallbe void and of no effect.
  2. If the purchaser or borrower lets or sublets the land, or land and dwelling-house, or any part thereof, in contravention of the provisions of this section, the Commissioner may cause to be sold the estate and interest of the purchaser or borrower in the land or land and dwelling-house.

Amendments (by Mr. Groom) agreed to -

That the words “ or sublet “ be omitted, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ sublet or mortgaged.”

That the words “ may cause to be sold the estate and interest of the purchaser or borrower in the land or land and dwelling-house” be omitted, with a view to insert inlieu thereof the words “ may -

in the case of a purchaser, cancel the contract of sale, and, in his discretion, forfeit the instalments previously paid by the purchaser;and

in the case of a borrower, sell the estate and interest of the borrower in the land or land and dwellinghouse “.

Clause also amended consequentially and agreed to.

Clauses 33 to 35 agreed to.

Clause 36 -

  1. If at any time any instalment or money payable in respect of any contract of sale or advance under this Act, or any. part of such instalment or money, is unpaid for three calendar months next after the time appointed for the payment thereof, then, although no legal demand has been made for payment, the Commissioner may enter upon and take possession of the land or land and dwelling-house with respect to which the contract of sale was entered into or the advance was made, and may sell the estate and interest of the purchaser or mortgagor therein, either by private sale or public tender or auction, and subject to such conditions of sale as he thinks expedient, and after giving to the purchaser or mortgagor such notice of the time, place, terms and conditions of sale as he thinks just and expedient, and may transfer the land or land and dwelling-house to the person who has purchased it and give a good and valid title thereto…..

Amendment (by Mr. Groom) agreed to-

That all the words from and including the words “ may sell the estate “ to and including the words”valid title thereto,” be omitted and that the following words be inserted in place thereof: - may -

in the case of a purchaser,cancel the contract of sale, and, in his discretion, forfeit the instalments previously paid by the purchaser; and

in the case of a borrower sell the estate and interest of the borrower in the land or land and dwelling-house, either by private sale or public tender or auction, and subject to such conditions of sale as he thinks expedient, and after giving to the borrower such notice of the time, place, terms and conditions of sale, as he thinks just and expedient, transfer the land or land and dwelling-house to the person who has purchased it and give a good and valid title thereto.”

Mr Sinclair:

– It seems hard that a person should be evicted for being only three months in arrears. I suggest that the term should be six months.

Mr Groom:

– Clause 44 allows the Commissioner, in cases of hardship, to extend the time for making any payments required by the Act.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 37 and 38 agreed to.

Clause 39-

  1. For the purposes of this Act, there shall he a War Service Homes Trust Account . . .
  2. To that Trust Account there shall be . . debited . . .
Sir ROBERT BEST:
Kooyong

– I again draw attention to the fact that in New South Wales a voluntary workers’ association has built a large number of homes for soldiers and their dependants, that a similar association is doing splendid work in the Fawkner division, and that in my electorate such homes are in the course of construction. I think that the Commissioner might be empowered to subsidize the efforts of these associations, and, therefore, I suggest that among the items which might be debited to the trust account should be “moneys paid by the Commissioner for subsidizing local schemes for building home3.” I would suggest the insertion of these words as a paragraph to follow paragraph d in the clause.

Mr Higgs:

– Is the work to which the honorable member refers being done by honorary local patriotic bodies.

Sir ROBERT BEST:

– Yes. These bodies are doing splendid work.

Mr Maxwell:

– In Prahran provision is being made for the erection of a large number of home3 for soldiers’ widows.

Sir ROBERT BEST:

– What I suggest is merely the giving of an enabling power to the Commissioner.

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

– I do not wish to accept any further amendments at this stage; but I would point out that there is nothing to prevent the Commissioner working with local bodies who can arrange to give help and material in respect of dwelling-houses for the erection of which the Commissioner has made advances.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- Is it intended that the cost of management and supervision of this scheme shall be borne by the owners of homes ? When an estate is subdivided certain eliminations must be made for roads, and so forth, and there may be a drainage scheme. There will also be the cost of collecting rents and keeping accounts. Will a percentage charge be added for the cost of management, or will management and supervision be paid for out of the general revenue of the Commonwealth? Under the State Act dealing with the closer settlement of soldiers, the whole cost of the management and subdivision of repurchased estates falls upon each particular estate.

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

– The Commissioner is empowered to determine the value of a block disposed of to a returned soldier and in determining the capital cost, to include a certain amount to cover acquisition and subdivision. The Commissioner’s salary and the general cost of the administration of the Act will be paid out of the Trust Fund, and will not be charged against the soldiers.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 40 to 48 agreed to.

Clause 49-

  1. The Commissioner may, with the consent of the Governor-General, arrange with any State Savings Bank, or any other prescribed institution, to provide homes for or make advances to eligible persons upon such terms and conditions as are agreed between the Commissioner and the bank or institution. . . .

Amendment (by Mr. Groom) agreed to-

That the words “ such terms and conditions as are agreed between the Commissioner and the bank or institution” be left out, and the following words inserted in lieu’ thereof: - “the same terms and conditions as are provided by this Act.”

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 50 agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Groom) agreed to-

That the following new clause be inserted: - “ 42a. Any notice required by this Act to be given may be served personally or by post.”

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendments.

Standing Orders suspended, and report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 9987

DECEASED SOLDIERS’ ESTATES BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed from19th December (vide page 9869), on motion by Mr. Wise -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- We were told by the Assistant Minister for Defence (Mr. Wise) when he was introducing this measure that it was intended to do justice in certain cases where hardship had been incurred. It was pointed out that in some cases where the parents had been parted for a number of years the father had put in an appearance and made a claim for the deceased son’s deferred pay, to which the mother was entitled. During the past few days a deceased soldier’s widow, who has three children, has brought under my notice peculiar circumstances which may be affected by the passage of this Bill. Her husband had left her and enlisted in Sydney under another name. She subsequently received information that he had been killed, but when she made inquiries at the Defence Department she found that another woman had made a claim to his deferred pay. Eventually a copy of his will came to hand from Sydney, in which he bequeathed all his money to a single woman living at Kyneton. This woman had advertised his death as his wife, and had given in the advertisement, not only the name in which he had enlisted, but also his real name.

Mr Wise:

– If the real wife had got in first with her claim before we heard . anything of thewill, we should have paid over the deferred pay to her.

Mr TUDOR:

– She was advised by an officer of the Department in Sydney to see the Curator of Estates in Melbourne, and I have been able to arrange an ap pointment with him for her. A number of extraordinary cases come under our notice, and I have no doubt that he has numberless cases of the same kind to deal with. If the Minister will assure me that this Bill will make it much easier for persons to get from the Defence Department the money to which they are really entitled, I am prepared to allow the measure to go through.

Mr Wise:

– There is no doubt on that score.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee:

Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 -

In the event of the death of a member while on war service, the military estate of the member may be paid or delivered -

  1. to any person who, in the opinion of the prescribed authority, is beneficially entitled thereto; or
Mr WISE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · Gippsland · NAT

– I move -

That the following new sub-clause be added : -

” In this section, ‘ prescribed authority ‘ means the Minister, or any of the following officers of the Department of Defence, namely, the Secretary, the Finance Secretary, the Assistant Finance Secretary, District Paymasters, or the Chief Paymasters of the Australian Imperial Force abroad.”

When I was introducing the Bill interjections showed that there was a doubt on the part of many honorable members as to who would have the power to exercise an opinion in regard to the persons who would be beneficially entitled to the military estates of deceased members of the Forces. The general feeling seemed to be that the matter should not be left to some junior clerk. This amendment will remove any doubt upon that score by providing that the “ prescribed authority “ shallbe one of the leading officers of the Department.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 (Exemption of Commonwealth from liability).

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- The effect of this clause will be retrospective. Exception is always taken by honorable members to legislation with retrospective effect, and I can see no reason for the insertion of this clause. The honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) has pointed out to me in conversation that there is great objection to the Commonwealth practically contracting itself out of liability. The clause reads -

Notwithstanding anything contained in any Act or State Act, the Commonwealth shall not be liable to any action, claim, or demand in respect of anything done in connexion with -

the disposition of a military estate in pursuance of this Act; or

the disposition, prior to the commencement of this Act, of any property of a deceased soldier, in pursuance of the provisions of the Regimental Debts Act; or

the disposition, prior to the commencement of this Act, of any property of a deceased soldier, which, if this Act had been in force at the time the thing was done, would have been in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

I presume that the idea of the Department is to make legal everything which has been done hitherto, and which would have been illegal but for this Bill.

Mr Wise:

– If the act was illegal then, this Bill will not validate it.

Mr TUDOR:

– The Minister has said that the Commonwealth is acquitted of any liability in connexion with past acts, and that in respect of those acts nobody can bring any action at law against the Department.

Mr Sampson:

– Will this clause be retrospective ?

Mr Wise:

– Yes.

Mr TUDOR:

– The Minister said that this law will date back to the beginning of the war. If a wrong has been done this Bill will validate it, and a person who would have had a claim against the Government will be deprived of any right of action at law. If a fault has been committed by the Department it should not shelter itself behind this measure and deprive persons of their legal rights to recover. Is it necessary to retain this clause? Cannot some modification be made that will preserve to the widows and mothers of soldiers the rights which they possess to-day, and which this Bill will take away?

Mr Maxwell:

– Surely we cannot by an Act of Parliament take away a right that has accrued.

Mr WISE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · Gippsland · NAT

.- Three kinds of claims are covered by this clause. To paragraph a there can be no objection. In regard to paragraphb, the Regimental Debts Act is an Imperial Statute, and I believe that the Imperial officers hold that it applies to the Dominions. If it does apply, paragraph b is unnecessary, but we are inserting it in order to make assurance doubly sure. Paragraph c is the only one to which I think reasonable objection may be taken. It, however, merely makes this measure relate back to the beginning of the war and covers only those acts which would have been legal if this measure had been in operation at the time. If we have done anything irregular and not under cover of this measure this paragraph will not indemnify us against any action at law. Already payments have been made in accordance with the principles of this Bill, and if this Bill be not passed, and if the Regimental Debts Act does not apply, certain persons would be able to have a shot at the Department in the Law Courts. If the principles of this measure are good the persons against whom they operate should not be given privileges because the measure was not passed a couple of years ago.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- This clause gives a very broadcast indemnification. It is an acquittance to the Department for any carelessness or negligence.

Mr Wise:

– This Bill does not cover carelessness or negligence.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Of course, opposition to the measure is weakened by the fact that the Department is dealing only with the soldier’s military estate, and not with his civil estate. But if a man has been on active service for four years his accumulated deferred pay would represent a fairly compact military estate. If, through lack of knowledge or carelessness, that estate had been disposed of improperly, a grievious wrong would have been done to those legally entitled to receive it. Whilst the passing of this measure will not act in restraint of the legal right of the true beneficiary to claim against the person who wrongly received the estate, yet if that person has disposed of the property, and is without means, any effective claim has disappeared. I should like to see a legal officer appointed in the Defence Department to deal with all these estates. In both the Repatriation Department and the Defence Department there has been a woeful lack of legal knowledge in the administration of estates. These matters are technical, and I have found clerks in the Department dealing with estates about which they had no legal knowledge. The Minister will see that it is hardly right to expose the rightful beneficiaries to carelessness or neglect in. the Department.

Mr Maxwell:

– This does not protect the Department against the consequence of carelessness or negligence.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– There is nothing to show that if there had been a wrongful disposition of a property prior to the passing of this Bill,the Department would not be indemnified in respect of that also.

Mr.Wise. - The estate must have been distributed in such a way as this Bill directs. The Bill only legalizes any distribution authorized by the Bill. But for that qualification paragraph e would be most objectionable.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Of course that qualification makes paragraph c less objectionable. Is the Minister perfectly satisfied that under this clause no legal injustice can be done to the rightful owner of a deceased soldier’s estate?

Mr.Wise. - Not when the honorable member uses the word “legal,” but I say that no injustice has been done. The object of thisBill is to cover cases in which legal injustice may have been done.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– If the Bill is agreed to, I hope that the Minister will attach to the Department a legal officer with some clear understanding of how these estates should be dealt with, so that there may be no careless administration.

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

.- I regret that we have not had more legal advice regarding this clause. I am afraid of its retrospective character. It seems strange that, after four years of war, legislation should be brought forward to make legal a bungle that may have taken place in the Department a couple of years ago. But if the Minister will give the Committee his assurance that from a legal stand-point the Bill is fair, I shall offer no objection to it. I desire that the estate of a soldier shall be protected from any negligence that might have taken place in the Department. I ask the Minister whether if a bungle did take place and the Department paid money to a person not entitled to it, would this Bill exonerate the Department?

Mr WISE:
Assistant Minister · Gippsland · NAT

– No; because in the first place the Bill only covers cases upon which a decision has ‘been given by the prescribed authority, who must be the Minister, or Secretary, or one of the officials at the head of the Finance Branch. No decision could be arrived at by a junior clerk. But for the qualifying and saving words at end of paragraph e, I should not ask honorable members to pass it. The only purpose of the paragraph is to cover past acts, such as this Bill enables us to do, in future, and which are already legal if the Regimental Debts Act is applicable to the Dominions.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– If this clause is passed, what recourse is left to the legal owner of an estate that has been improperly distributed?

Mr WISE:

– His or her only right of legal action would be against the person receiving the estate.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Therefore the Department altogether escapes the responsibility of a curator.

Mr WISE:

– Yes, and we shall do so in respect of all estates dealt with after the Bill has been passed.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– This clause shifts from the Department to the wrongful claimant responsibility for past acts.

Mr WISE:

– It does not necessarily shift any responsibility, because all past acts may have been quite legal under the Regimental Debts Act. If the Bill is good in principle now, it oughtto cover those Acts which would have been legal if the Bill had been passed previously.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Does not the Minister see that the passing of this Bill will give an officer knowledge in advance that even if he disposed of an estate without much inquiry, his Department is indemnified?

Mr WISE:

– I do not think so. There is a safeguard in the provision defining the prescribed authority. I agree with the honorable member that the possession of legal knowledge in dealing with matters of this kind is of very great value. I realized that the other day, when a sum of money was claimed by a wife and by the children of a former marriage, which had been dissolved. The second marriage had taken place before the decree nisi had been made. Fortunately I remembered that an amending Act had been passed by the Victorian Parliament, and was only awaiting the Royal Assent. I directed, in that case, that the decision should be held over until that Act had been assented to.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– My misgivings would disappear if the honorable gentleman would undertake to put a legal man at the head of this branch.

Mr WISE:

– I cannot undertake to do that; but, at present, nearly all these cases come before me.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to.

Clause 9 (Application of estate where no person beneficially entitled thereto).

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

– I wish to know whether it is intended that the Defence Department shall have some separate fund for the benefit of persons who are, or have been, members of the Australian Imperial Forces, or dependants of such members. It would be a strange thing if, as this clause suggests, the Department proposed to create such a fund.

Mr WISE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · Gippsland · NAT

– This clause is designed to meet a provision in the Regimental Debts Act, under which unclaimed money in the military estate of a deceased member is paid into a fund which the Secretary of State prescribes. A request has been made to the Imperial authorities to prescribe the Australian Repatriation Fund as a fund for this purpose.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 10 agreed to.

Clause11-

The medals of a deceased member, which are not bequeathed to some specified person by will, shall be delivered to such person as the Minister …. approves.

Mr WISE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · Gippsland · NAT

– I move -

That after the word “person,” line 3, the words “ or institution “be inserted.

This amendment is designed to permit the medals of a deceased soldier, where there are no claimants, to be presented to some institution.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 12 and 13 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendments.

Standing Orders suspended; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 9990

NAVAL DEFENCE BILL

Second Reading

Mr POYNTON:
Acting Minister for the Navy · Grey · NAT

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

This is largely a machinery measure, and it consists of only a few clauses. The first amendment of the principal Act for which it provides will enable the GovernorGeneral to issue a warrant, in addition to a commission which he now has power to issue. In clause 3, it is proposed to amend section 5 of the principal Act, which provides that certain parts of the Defence Act shall continue to apply to the Naval Forces, by adding a proviso that - in the application of those parts and sections in relation to the Naval Forces, any reference to the Minister shall be construed as a reference to the Minister administering this Act.

When the administration of the Naval Forces was separated from that of the land Forces, and placed under a separate Department, there was no clear division of the duties of Ministers, and this amendment is designed to overcome that difficulty. In the next clause, we provide for an amendment of section 8 of the principal Act declaring that subordinate officers, and officers appointed provisionally, or on probation, shall not receive commissions. This is a technical amendment required to meet probationary appointments. Under the principal Act, men who were provisionally appointed as officers must undergo an examination within eighteen months of their appointment. In some cases, these men have been on active service for four years, and we propose that under clause 5 such men shall receive their commissions without being required to undergo an examination.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time; and reported from Committee without amendment.

Standing Orders suspended, and Bill passed through its remaining stages.

page 9991

PUBLIC SERVICE BILL (No. 3.)

Second Reading

Mr GROOM:
Minister forWorks and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

This is a short Bill designed to give necessary relief in certain cases. The first amendment of the principal Act for which it provides relates to telegraph messengers who displayed their loyalty by enlisting before they were eighteen years of age, and did service oversea. Some are still away, and we feel that it is hardly just that these lads, having enlisted, should be put out of the Service. The amendment is to cover their case. The second amendment of the principal Act for which this Bill provides, deals with certain positions in the Public Service in respect of which it is not considered desirable to have competitive examinations. It is hardly fair, for instance, that cleaners, who have been in the temporary service for some time and have given satisfaction, should be required to undergo an examination in order to become permanent officers in the general division. It is proposed to specify certain classes of these, servants, and to enable them to be appointed without being submitted to a competitive examination. A further amendment of the principal Act covered by this Bill arises out of the report of the Royal Commission into the loyalty of officers of the Public Service. The final one deals with the question of holidays. The existing law provides for the observance of eight holidays per annum, and also for the recognition of such holidays or half-holidays as may be proclaimed in the different States. It is now proposed to secure uniformity by providing that in addition to the eight holidays per annum covered by the principal Act there may be observed “ such additional days or half-days, not exceeding in the whole, in the case of any office, four days in any one calendar year, as are prescribed.” Special holidays may also be declared.

Mr Tudor:

– In addition to the twelve holidays named. This would cover the Peace holidays.

Mr GROOM:

– Yes; this would give power in such a case to proclaim a general holiday throughout Australia.

Mr Sampson:

– The object of this provision is, I take it, to have uniform holidays throughout the States.

Mr GROOM:

– Yes. In some of the States there are only ten public holidays. Under this Bill the observance of eight holidays is assured; four more may be proclaimed, and, in addition, special holidays may be declared. Certain other amendments relating to hours of employment are also made by this Bill.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I admit the Bill is much improved as the result of amendments made in another place. I am glad that the Senate struck out the clause which deprived public servants of rights secured by an award of the Court. There are one or two features of the Bill, however, on which I should like some information. The provision in clause 3, in regard to appointments without examination to the general division, must surely refer to persons who are temporary employees in the Service.

Mr Groom:

– Yes. It refers to their appointment to permanent positions.

Mr TUDOR:

– It covers the case of temporary employees who have been in the Service for a long time and have given satisfaction?

Mr Groom:

– That is so.

Mr TUDOR:

– I recognise that in some offices it is practically impossible to employ casual hands. Valuable articles may be left about, and care must be exercised in determining who shall have access to such rooms. Although the Act provides that officers shall be taken on from the Public Service list, that course is not always followed by the Customs Department in selecting, say, a watchman, whose duty it may be to have an oversight over the steamers that come down from the East. There is a well-known saying in certain quarters that a man could get £50 in some cases to look the other way for five minutes. Will this give to men who have performed casual, but faithful, service to a Department, in some cases for a number of years, and whom the head of the Department would be glad to place in permanent positions, but is unable to do so on account of their age, the right to become permanent employees ?

Mr Groom:

– There are certain classes of work, such as cleaning and watching, to which it is not considered desirable to apply the competitive examination test, and it is left to the Commissioner to specify the classes.

Mr TUDOR:

– Clause 4 deals with the termination of appointments of officers in the Public Service. I realize that once a man obtains a position in the Service it is very difficult to displace him. Mr. Barnet, a stipendiary magistrate, was appointed a Royal Commission to inquire as to the employment of aliens in the Public Service, and I submit that, if a man is discharged by reason of the report by Mr. Barnet, there should be the right of appeal to some one. That Royal Commission was appointed at a time when there was much excitement in the community, and many men were brought before it who should not have been. A man named Leyden was accused of having German parents, and when I mentioned the name in the House, the honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr.Fenton) said that the man’s parents were born at Avoca, near where he himself was born. and it was proved that all his grandparents were born in Ireland and in England. There was another man in the Harness Factory, whose parents were born in Australia, and whose grandparents, and great-grandparents, were born in Great Britain; but some one had reported against him, and he was brought up before the Commission. All this, of course, means possible injury to the persons concerned. If a man is dangerous to the community there is no harm in letting the fact be known; but at any rate he ought to have the right of appeal to the Public Service Commissioner, or to the Minister of the Department. Paragraph 2 of clause 4 provides that no person who is dismissed from the Commonwealth Service under the clause shall be entitled to make any claim against the Commonwealth by way of compensation or otherwise in respect of his dismissal, and a further paragraph provides that the clause shall be deemed to have commenced on the 1st May last. A man named Stokes was brought before the Commission on the ground that his parents were German, and he lost time from his work in obtaining and producing birth certificates to disprove the charge. It will be seen that there is room for great injustice; and a man ought to have a chance to defend himself.

Mr Sinclair:

– You do not suggest that the Commission found that these men were aliens?

Mr TUDOR:

– These men do not know what reports Mr. Barnet may have drawn up against them, because, in answer to questions in the House, we have been told that he will not send in a report until his inquiries are completed. A man who has been before the Commission may imagine now that he has established his bona fides, and possibly he may find himself dismissed.

Clause 5 deals with holidays, and paragraph 6 of that clause is as follows : - (6.) Where the hours of duty of any officer are arranged by schedule and the attendance and services of that officer are required during any holiday observed in pursuance of this section, that officer shall not be entitled to receive in respect of his attendance and services during that holiday an amount greater than a full day’s salary.

I wish, to know whether this clause will override awards which officers have obtained from the Conciliation and Arbitration Court?

Mr Groom:

– No; I shall explain the position.

Mr TUDOR:

– Practically all branches have been awarded by the Court double pay for holidays. However, the Bill is now a great deal better than when it was introduced in another place.

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

.- There is a clause in the Bill to protect postal officers who have enlisted. I am informed that if a returned postal official is not a member of a union, he is likely to receive less pay than that received by a unionist alongside him who is doing similar work. We should have an absolute assurance from the Minister that such a state of affairs, which is dangerous to the community and to the administration, will not be continued for another moment. A man may have very great objections to joining a union, an.d I, for one, think it is highly improper that such a man should receive less pay on that account. Clause 3 provides for appointment to the General Division without examination; and I desire to know whether this will enable the Commissioner to appoint outsiders other than returned soldiers.

Mr Tudor:

– The honorable member for Perth (Mr. Fowler) the other day mentioned the case of a man who had served in the British Army for eighteen years, had worked in Perth for eight years, and, although he is a married man with a family, his services have been dispensed with in favour of a single man.

Mr GREGORY:

– Paragraph 2 of clause 3 provides that preference shall be given to persons who have served with a satisfactory record in any Expeditionary Force, and I should certainly like to see the same preference extended to men who have been in the Imperial Service.

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

– The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Tudor) has raised a point in connexion with the termination of appointments of officers in the Public Service under clause 4. This is an enabling clause, as shown by the words, “ The GovernorGeneral may dismiss”; and before that step is taken, a recommendation will have to come from the Public Service Commissioner, and be sent on to the Governor-General.

Mr Tudor:

– Will the man have the right of appeal?

Mr GROOM:

– The Bill does not provide for that. The next point raised by the honorable gentleman was as to holidays, as dealt with in paragraph 6 of clause 5. This clause, so far as I understand, does not conflict with any awards of the Conciliation and Arbitration Court. If an officer, for instance, is scheduled for twelve hours on one day, and four hours on the next day, it simply means that this is regarded as one day’s work, and not as additional work.

Mr Mathews:

– That is an. old idea of “ the boss “ !

Mr GROOM:

– It depends on the nature of the work. For instance, a man may be employed in a postal van, and his time of actual work divided in the way I have suggested. Such men are relieved on other days so as to keep them within the statutory hours. This, of course, is all in connexion with holidays. As to the other point raised in regard to paragraph 7, that is in accordance with an award given by Mr. Justice Powers.

In reply to the honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory), I have to say that clause 3 is not intended to allow others to enter the Service as against returned soldiers. The clause has reference to limited classes of work which are not suitable for ordinary competitive examinations, and is not .intended to affect the employment of returned soldiers.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee:

Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 (Termination of appointments of officers in Public Service).

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

.- I desire to record my opposition to this clause, the apparent object of which is to enable the Government to apply differential treatment to certain classes of persons in the Public Service, as a result of ari inquiry by a Royal Commission.

There is nothing in the clause specially applicable to aliens.

Mr Groom:

– The Commission would probably set out the terms and condition-! of the inquiry.

Mr Tudor:

– It is really the Barnet Commission.

Mr BRENNAN:

– That is a Commission dealing with aliens or persons of alien extraction. There is no reference to that fact in the clause.

Mr Groom:

– There is reference to the specific Commission. The clause applies to that Commission, and to that Commission only.

Mr BRENNAN:

– That being so, it is clear that the object is to enable the Government to summarily dismiss certain persons from the Public Service without the formality of an inquiry by Departmental Boards, or the operation of any of the other machinery which is considered necessary to secure justice for the public servants. I am not prepared to agree to any course that will apply special treatment to any class of persons in the Service. If certain persons are disloyal, disaffected, unworthy for any reason of public trust or confidence, the fact should be tested by the machinery provided for trying members of the Public Service. The war being over, we should not continue these special punitive provisions by new legislative measures directed to the penalization of men on account of their blood. Men who are good enough to have been appointed to the Public Service in the ordinary way should have the full measure of justice and protection that the Public Service Act provides. I am not satisfied that the Commissioner who has made this inquiry is fitted by temperament to furnish a report that will be just to all the members of the Public Service. I believe, with the honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Tudor), that persons were brought before the Commission secretly, and catechised and crossexamined in a way altogether foreign to the principles of British justice. I do not say that I have complete proof of that, because one likes to hear both sides ; but I have heard circumstantial statements, by persons whose word I am prepared to take, that the treatment before the Commissioner of some members of the Public Service was not such as to do credit to the community in which it was tolerated. At any rate, on the broad principle that we should not differentiate against and penalize a section of the Public Service, I am opposed to this clause.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I am not desirous that any one who has been proved to be disloyal should remain in the Public Service; but persons who have been before the Commissioner, and have given evidence, do not know what his report will be. The sort of questions asked were these - “What is your name?” “How old are you?” “What is your position ?” “ Where are you employed ?” “ How long have you been so employed ?” “Are you married or single?” “How many children have you?” “What is the age of the eldest boy ? “ In one case the man questioned replied that he had not a boy, and was asked the age of his daughter. “Have you any brothers?” “Did your brother try to enlist?” To that question the answer in one case was, “ Yes, but he was rejected.” Then came the question, “ What doctor rejected him?” I do not know what doctor passed my son when he enlisted, and, had he been rejected, I would not have known what doctor rejected him. The man was asked, “ Where was he examined?” He replied, “I do not know.” The Commissioner then said, “ You had better find out.” He was asked where he was born, and the birthplace of his father and mother. To the last question he said, “ In Victoria, but I do not exactly know where.” When asked the birthplace of his grandparents, he said that he did not know. I know where my parents were born, but I know the birthplace of only one of my grandparents, though they were al]i born in South Wales. The witness was asked what relations he had on active service, and replied that he had two cousins. He was questioned as to the relationship and the names of the cousins - asked where they were, how many war bonds he had purchased, and so on. The man did nob know when called before the Commission why he had been summoned. The witnesses were told to appear at the head office, where they were employed, but were not told why they were wanted.

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

– I think that the objections of honorable members might be met if it were agreed that before the power of dismissal was exercised the man concerned should be given an opportunity to make any representations that he liked to the head of his Department showing cause why he should not be dismissed.

Mr Tudor:

– If you give him an appeal to the head of his Department, or to the Public Service Commissioner, I shall be perfectly satisfied.

Mr GROOM:

– I am quite prepared to recommend this course to the Minister who will administer the Act - that a man shall not be dismissed until he has had an opportunity to make representations, and to show cause why he should be retained.

Mr CONSIDINE:
Barrier

.- From my point of view, the Minister’s assurance does not go far enough. I consider that this clause is a travesty of justice. A person in regard to whom the inquiry is held does not know what evidence has been brought against him, or what statements have been made concerning him. To give him an opportunity to make representations to the head of his Department would be of no benefit to him if the Commissioner had recommended to the Governor-General that he should be dismissed.

Mr Groom:

– Before a man could be dismissed from the Public Service a recommendation must be made by a Minister to the Governor-General in Council, and before that is done the man concerned will have an opportunity to put his case and make representations.

Mr Watt:

– Which will be considered by the Minister, not by the permanent head of the Department.

Mr CONSIDINE:

– The opportunity to make representations might be of advantage if the person charged knew what had been alleged against him.

Mr Watt:

– He should know that.

Mr CONSIDINE:

– It would satisfy me if I had the assurance that a public servant will not be dismissed until the facts alleged against him have been made known to him, and he has had an opportunity to rebut them.

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– The reports of the Commissioner have naturally come to my Department and have passed under my notice, and I therefore know the nature of the recommendations in most cases, and have seen them and the record of questions and answers where dismissals have been recommended. I would have no objection to giving the undertaking that if an officer desires to appeal against a recommendation of the Minister before it can be made operative by Order in Council he shall have a chance of making representations to show why he should not be dismissed or punished, with a knowledge, of the questions and answers and recommendations of the Commissioner; in other words, that he shall be allowed to know the facts on which the Minister was asked to act.

Mr Tudor:

– You would let him appeal against the recommendation of the Commissioner to the Minister?

Mr WATT:

– Yes.

Mr Maxwell:

– There is no determination by the Commissioner.

Mr WATT:

– No; the Commissioner recommends; it is for the Minister to make that recommendation operative. The Commissioner is doing a very distasteful service with all the skill that his long experience enables him to apply to it, and I do not wish him to feel that his recommendations are being pigeon-holed, or thrown into the waste-paper basket; but the Ministers responsible will undertake that the officers charged shall have sufficient data to enable them to reply to the charges against thi la, and that they shall have the right of appeal to their Minister.

Mr Considine:

– Will the Acting Prime Minister see that that is specific1 ally set out in the Bill?

Mr WATT:

– If we were to amend the Bill now, we should not be able to get it passed; but the honorable member may rely on the Act being administered in the spirit of the undertaking that I have given.

Mr Considine:

– You will give every officer the opportunity of an inquiry before he is dismissed?

Mr WATT:

– I do not, of course, promise a personal interview with the Minister.

Mr Considine:

– What I am anxious to obtain is that any officer who feels aggrieved by the recommendation of the Commissioner, and thinks that he can advance reasons why it should not be accepted, should have an opportunity to obtain the facts that have been alleged against him, and have the recommendation considered by a responsible official appointed by the Minister.

Mr WATT:

– The procedure I have outlined will operate also in cases where temporary officers are concerned.

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

.- In saying that he did not wish to pigeonhole Mr. Barnet’s report, or place it in the waste-paper basket, the Acting Prime Minister indicated what ought to be done with it. Those are certainly the only two alternatives which present themselves in regard to the disposal of the report. It dealt with a certain class of employees in the Public Service, and one class only - officers of so-called alien or enemy origin. Those are the persons who are covered by this clause, which gives the Government special powers to deal with them in a special way. Of course, it is satisfactory to know that the Acting Prime Minister is prepared to give his personal assurance that these persons shall receive justice; but that is immaterial to the main principle, namely, that they are being treated as a class apart. I object to their being so treated. The Commission ought never to have been appointed. It was carried on in a way which was quite inconsistent with British justice. The inquiries made by the Commissioner were often, I am credibly informed, unpleasant, and of an insolent and offensive character, and my support will not be given to this clause, which proposes to perpetuate the work done by him.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

.- Some members of the Public Service have been receiving a lower rate of wage than others who are members of unions. I had intended to move to insert a new clause dealing with this matter; but if I get a promise that consideration will be given to it, I shall not do so.

The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter:

– It is too late for the honorable member to move to add a new clause to the Bill.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Standing Orders suspended.

Bill read a third time.

page 9996

INCOME TAX BILL (No. 2)

Bill returned from the Senate with a message intimating that the Senate had agreed to the Bill as amended by the House of Representatives at its request.

page 9996

WAR SERVICE HOMES BILL

Message reported intimating that the Senate had agreed to the amendments made by the House of Representatives.

page 9996

DECEASED SOLDIERS’ ESTATES BILL

Message reported intimating that the Senate had agreed to the amendments made by the House of Representatives.

page 9996

DEFENCE BILL (No. 3)

In Committee (Consideration resumed from the 26th November, vide page8330).

Clause 7, as previously amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 (Offences connected with desertion).

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- In this clause a monetary penalty is provided. Does the Minister propose to insist on retaining a monetary penalty, for which no provision is made in the original Act?

Mr WISE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · Gippsland · NAT

– This clause and the two previous clauses refer to the only three sections in the original Act which do not include a monetary penalty. When this question of monetary penalties was discussed by the Committee on a previous occasion, honorable members urged that benefit would be derived by the rich man, who could buy himself off by paying, but my experience is that the man who suffers the most by the absence of a monetary penalty is the poor man, who sustains the loss of his wages and everything else if he has to go to gaol. I always urge in Court that a fine should be inflicted instead of sending a man to gaol, because the person convicted has a chance of getting his friends to help him pay the fine, thus enabling him to retain his employment. It is on the grounds of mercy towards those who are prosecuted that I ask honorable members to pass the clause as it stands.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 9 agreed to.

Clause 10 (Sentence of death in certain cases only).

Mr WISE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · Gippsland · NAT

– This is the clause which permits of the infliction of the death penalty in cases of murder. I promised the Committee that it would be struck out.

Clause negatived.

Clauses 11 to 13 agreed to.

Postponed clause 2 (Seniority of officers in Reserve Forces).

Mr WISE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · Gippsland · NAT

– I ask honorable members to pass this clause as it stands, because I intend to move to add a new clause, providing that an officer who is eligible for promotion to a higher rank, and who has served on active service abroad, shall be granted preference in promotion to an officer of the same rank who has not served on active service abroad.

Clause agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Wise) proposed -

That the following new clause be inserted : - 2a. After section 20 of the principal Act the following section is inserted: - “Notwithstanding anything contained in this Act, an officer who is eligible for promotion to a higher rank, and who has served on active service abroad shall, other things being equal, be granted preference in promotion to an officer of the same rank who is eligible for promotion to that higher rank, and who has not served on active service abroad.”

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- The honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) has an amendment on the notice-paper to a similar effect. We discussed this matter at great length when the Bill was previously under consideration. Honorable members expressed their disappointment that clause 2 did not grant to men who had served overseas the seniority to which it was understood they were entitled on their return. It was the object of the honorable member for Melbourne to make provision that preference should be given in the Military Forces on the principle that underlies the preference which is given to returned soldiers in the Public Service generally. The honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) has been very persistent in calling attention to the fact that eligibles on the Head-Quarters Staff, who had not served abroad, were seeking to make the Military Forces a close preserve to themselves.

Mr WISE:
Assistant. Minister for Defence · Gippsland · NAT

– The proposal of the honorable member for Melbourne deals more particularly with the question of seniority. I have a long memorandum with me, pointing out that it is not so much a question of seniority as it is a question of promotion that is of material value in this regard.

Mr Tudor:

– If the honorable member for Melbourne is satisfied with the Minister’s proposal, I am content to let it pass.

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

.- I am pleased that the Minister has come forward with his proposal, but it does not seem to me to cover the whole of the ground. A man who returns from the Front may be inferior to one who is in the Reserve Forces, but has not served abroad. My proposal was to have application to the Reserve Forces.

Mr Wise:

– This proposal applies throughout the whole of the Forces, including the Reserve Forces.

Mr Mathews:

– Does it include noncommissioned officers?

Mr Wise:

– It applies to the whole of the Military Forces.

Dr MALONEY:

– I wrote to Lord Kitchener on this matter once, asking him if a man who had seen service should rank superior to one who had not. I had in view some of the men who had not gone to the Boer war, but rose to high rank by polishing the handle of the big front door and calling at Government

House. I quoted those cases, and Lord Kitchener replied that any man who had seen active service should have preference over a man who had not done so. As the Minister assures me that the proposed new clause will cover reserve officers, I offer no opposition to it.

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

.- I move -

That the following words be added to the proposed new clause: - “and when any promotion or appointment is being made, if not of a returned soldier or sailor, the Secretary of the Department or the Public Service Commissioner shall certify that no returned soldier or sailor with suitable qualifications’ is available.”

I desire to insure- that, at any rate, so far as the Defence Department is concerned, any returned soldier or sailor who is qualified and available shall receive any appointment to the Department.

Mr MAXWELL:
Falkiner

.- The proposed new clause and the amendment are likely to bear hardly upon those officers who were willing to go abroad on active service but were prevented from doing so.

Mr Wise:

– That is why the words, “other things being equal” are inserted, in the clause.

Mr MAXWELL:

– Would those words cover the cases I am referring to ?

Mr Wise:

– Yes; the object is to conserve the rights of those members of the Forces who desired to go abroad but were not allowed to do so.

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

.- I hope the Minister will accept the amendment, which will secure justice for returned soldiers. Some time ago the Department sent thirty clerks to England, only one of whom was a returned soldier. Surely amongst- the soldiers at the Front were clerks who could have been chosen for the work in England, thus saving the expense of sending them all the way from Australia. If this amendment is carried, it will prevent a recurrence of any nonsense of that kind.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– I do not like opposing an amendment of this character; but the Committee should be careful in what it is doing. If .the amendment were carried a young sergeant-major who had been to the Front would be entitled to promotion over . an older sergeant-major who had been refused permission to go because of his age. We know that the sergeant.major is the backbone of regimental organization and training. Is a highly competent older man to be compelled to stand back whilst a younger, vigorous fighting man gets promotion over his head ? If that is done the organization of . a company or regiment may be completely upset. A lot of the delay in connexion with the sending to Australia of soldiers’ papers, which the Department required to have in hand before finalizing the payments due to the men, was due to the lack of administrative training on the part of the officers in the field. It is necessary to have men who understand military organization and the financial regulations. A young captain may be a fine fighting man, but he might not be conversant with or qualified for the administrative work, attaching to the position of captain of a company. The intention of the mover of the amendment is that returned soldiers shall be appointed to all positions. Whilst I believe in giving preference to the returned soldier, there is a danger of carrying the principle too far, and of doing an injustice to some men who desired to go to the Front but were not allowed to do so.

Mr. WISE (Gippsland - Assistant Minister for Defence) ‘11.8]. - I am sorry that I cannot accept the amendment. It prescribes that the Secretary of the Department or the Public Service Commissioner must certify that no returned soldier or sailor with suitable qualifications is available for any position. How could either of those officers possibly give such a certificate ? The amendment is impracticable.

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

.- The principle contained in the amendment ought to have been in force in the Defence Department long ago. There are more cold-footers and wasters in that Department than in any other. There are Generals who have never heard a gun fired, except at a review. I would force the amendment to a division, and I believe the Committee would carry it, but I am afraid that in doing so the Government might be embarrassed. I do not blame the Assistant Minister, but the opposition to the amendment is what one would expect from a. Department which proposed to allow a boy eighteen years of age, perhaps the last of a family, to go to the Front without the consent of his parents, while thousands of cold-footers were employed in the Department.

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

– I hope the honorable member for Dampier will press the amendment to a division.

Mr Wise:

– If the amendment is carried the whole Bill will be lost.

Dr MALONEY:

– I do not care a twopenny damn if it is. There are Generals in the Defence Department who have never smelt gunpowder, except from a Chinese cracker. The Department is full of General Nuisance and General Humbug. There is, for instance, General Cuscaden, who has the lowest medical diploma of any man under the Australian or British flag, and who would not be permitted to practice in either the Melbourne Hospital or the Alfred Hospital.

Amendment negatived.

Proposed new clause agreed to.

Mr WISE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · Gippsland · NAT

.- I move -

That the following new clause be inserted: - “After section 40 of the principal Act the following sections are inserted: - 40a. In time of war, any person who is employed under articles of apprenticeship may, notwithstanding any provision of or obligation under the articles, enlist in the Military Forces, and any person who so enlists shall notbe liable, during the period of his service in the Forces, and until a reasonable period thereafter, to be claimed for service under the articles. 40b. (1 ) Any person employed under articles of apprenticeship who has in time of war enlisted in the Military Forces, shall, upon discharge from the Military Forces, unless the Minister otherwise determines, be entitled, within a period of three months after the date of his discharge, or, in the case of a person discharged before the commencement of this section, within three months after such commencement, to resume his employment under his articles of apprenticeship, and the period served by him after discharge shallbe deemed to be a continuance of the period served by him prior to enlistment.

If any master, upon the application of an apprentice who is entitled under the last preceding sub-section to resume his employment, refuses to re-employ him, he shall be guilty of an offence.

Penalty: Fifty pounds.’”

The Act makes no provision for an apprentice to be able to compel his employer to re-employ him on his return from active service. This new clause gives him that right.

Proposed new clause agreed to.

Motion (by Mr. Wise) agreed to -

Thatthe following new clause be inserted: - “Section 119 of the principal Act is amended by omitting therefrom the words without the authority of the Minister, he entitled to’ and inserting in their stead the words ‘ except as prescribed,’.”

Motion (by Mr. Wise) agreed to -

That the following new clause be inserted: - “ Section 135 of the principal Actis amended by omitting from sub-section 5 the words ‘ detained by that authority, and inserting in their stead the words handed over by that authority to military custody for conveyance to and detention.’ “

Mr WISE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · Gippsland · NAT

– I move -

That the following new clause be inserted: - “ Section 135b of the principal Act is repealed, and the following section inserted in its stead: - 135b. - (1) Notwithstanding anything contained in the next two preceding sections, a person shall not be liable in any one year to confinement in excess of thirty days in respect of offences committed by him against the provisions of sub-section 1, or paragraph a of sub-section 1a of section 135, or of costs awarded in proceedings for such offences, and anyorder or other authority issued by a Court authorizing confinement for a period in excess of such thirty days, shall, in so far as it relates to the period in excess, be void; but nevertheless proceedings shall not be maintainable against the Commonwealth, or any person in respect of the order or authority, or of any act or thing done in pursuance of the order or authority.

2 ) In this section, ‘ confinement ‘ includes detention under the authority of section 135 of this Act, and custody under the authority of the last preceding section.’ “

The repealed section provides that a man shall not serve more than thirty days’ imprisonment in any one year. There has been some difficulty in operating that; therefore, the new clause provides that if a man is sentenced to more than thirty days, any excess period shall be void.

Proposed new clause agreed to.

Motion (by Mr. Wise) agreed to -

That the following new clause be inserted: - “Section 138 of the principal Act is amended by omitting from sub-section 3 thereof the words ‘undergo such equivalent training as prescribed, unless exempted by some provision of this Act’ and inserting in their stead the words ‘become liable for training as prescribed, but shall not be required to perform additional training equivalent to the training from which they have been exempted under this sub-section.’ “

Mr WISE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · Gippsland · NAT

– I move -

That the following new clause be inserted : -

Section one hundred and forty-two of the principal Act is amended by inserting the following sub-section after sub-section 1 thereof: “ 1a. If any such male inhabitant of Australia is not registered in the manner prescribed in sub-section 1 of this section, he, and the parent, guardian, or person acting in loco parentis, shall severally be guilty of an offence.”

This clause deals with the question of registration. There is some little difficulty under the present Act in determining the person who is responsible for registration. Under this clause the boy, and the parent also,will be responsible.

Proposed new clause agreed to.

Motion (by Mr. Wise) agreed to -

That the following new clause be inserted : - 12f. After section one hundred and fortytwo of the principal Act the following section is inserted: - “ 142a. Any male inhabitant of Australia, who has resided therein for six months and is a British subject, and whose bonâ fide residence is within a distance of five miles, reckoned by the nearest practicable route, from the nearest place appointed for training, and who is, at any time after he has attained the age of fourteen years and before he has attained the age of twenty-six years, not registered for naval or military training, shall be guilty of an offence.”

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendments.

Standing Orders suspended; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 10000

QUESTION

LITHGOW HOUSING SCHEME

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

– I move -

That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-1914, it is expedient to carry out the following proposed work: - The scheme of housing workmen and others engaged in connexion with the Commonwealth Factories at Lithgow, New South Wales, which said work was referred to the Public Works Committee, and the Committee has duly reported to this House the result of its inquiries thereon.

The procedure laid down by the Public Works Committee Act has been followed. The scheme was referred to the Committee, which has reported to the House, and I am now moving that it is expedient to carry out the proposed work. The Committee reported under twenty-three different headings. They recommended in the first place “ that the erection of housing accommodation should be proceeded with.” This approves of the principle embodied in the scheme submitted. Recommendations 2 and 3 were: -

That the 2-ft. reservation on the south side of Bayonet-street should be acquired;

That necessary right-of-carriage-way should be obtained over private property at the southwestern corner of the area.

The Department intended to make these acquisitions. The fourth recommendation was -

That the design for lay-out submitted should be modified in accordance with recommendations of the Town-planning Association of New South Wales.

The design submitted by the designer has been slightly modified, after consideration of the recommendations mentioned, and will be proceeded with as modified. The fifth and sixth recommendations of the Committee were -

That the minimum size of blocks should be 50 feet frontage by 125 feet depth.

That the streets should be of varying widths of 66 feet, 50 feet and 40 feet.

This has been attended to in the detailed plan. The seventh recommendation was -

That the buildings should be 15 feet or more back from the street alignment.

This was proposed by the Department, and will be done. The eighth recommendation was -

That necessary reservations should be made for churches, parks, playgrounds, assembly hall, places of amusement, and shops.

The scheme provided this, and the plan was framed accordingly. The ninth recommendation was -

That the cottages should be constructed under the control of the Department of Works and Railways.

This will be done, but tenders will be invited. The tenth recommendation was -

That the cottages should be erected by contracts in units of not less than ten. This will be done, and was proposed’. Recommendation 11 was -

That the cottages should be erected of brick, with tiled roofs.

This was proposed, but if other suitable roofing is available it will be considered. Recommendations 12 and IS were -

That three pairs of semi-detached and six detached houses should be erected, and that the maximum price to be paid for these houses should not exceed £350.

That the maximum price of the largest house should not. exceed £600.

These recommendations are approved, and an attempt will be made to approximate the suggested sums. The fourteenth recommendation was -

That the settlement be lighted by electricity from the factory, if possible.

This will be considered, but at present it is not thought to be practicable. As to recommendation 15 -

That the first section of the settlement should consist of 150 cottages,

The scheme submitted was for 100 houses, and it is proposed to build to meet requirements from time to time. Recommendation 16 was -

That the Commonwealth should carry its own insurance against loss by fire.-

That recommendation was approved. Recommendations 17 and 18 were -

That the cottages should be let on a fortnightly tenancy; business premises to be leased .

That the rental to be charged be fixed on a basis of 8 per cent, on cost.

The intention of the Government is to build, and sei! to employees. As to recommendation 19,

That any annual loss resulting from the provision of water and sewerage mains be borne by the Small Arms Factory, any loss in carrying out this proposal will be borne by the Government. Recommendation 20 was -

That the area be brought wholly within the municipality of Lithgow.

It is intended to do this. Recommendation 21 was -

That the Commonwealth should contribute to the municipality an amount equivalent to what would be chargeable to rates if Commonwealth property were rateable.

An arrangement to this effect is being * made. The twenty-second recommendation was -

That a Board of Management be established to control the settlement when established.

The matter of future management will be considered. As to the final recommendation of the Committee,

That legislative or other necessary action to give effect to recommendations be taken forthwith. %

I have to say that this is a matter for future consideration. No provision is made on the Estimates for the construction of these houses, but the Treasurer has under consideration a proposal - to finance the scheme through one of the * Savings Banks. These houses are badly needed, and it is intended to proceed with their erection as soon as possible. We are following many of the recommendations made by the Committee. Some of them are in harmony with the policy of the Department, while in respect of others modifications have been made. We are now negotiating certain matters with the municipality of Lithgow, and as soon as they are settled we shall proceed with the work.

Mr Boyd:

– Why is it proposed to pay rates if the cottages are to be sold t

Mr GROOM:

– There is a large area of unoccupied land belonging to the Commonwealth in respect of which it is proposed that the Commonwealth shall pay the rates.

Mr Boyd:

– But not on the houses.

Mr GROOM:

– Yes, until they are sold. While they are occupied by our tenants - pending their sale - the rates, will be collected from the occupiers.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- This is an entirely new principle. The proposal is to erect 100 houses, not for returned soldiers, but for Commonwealth employees. The Minister has not told us what they are going to cost.

Mr Groom:

– That information appears in the report of the Public Works Committee, which was presented on19th September last.

Mr TUDOR:

– I candidly admit that I did not know that the report had been presented, and that I have not read a line of it. Assuming that the average cost of these houses is £500 each, this proposal involves an expenditure of £50,000. I have no objection to the Commonwealth building houses for employees of Government factories, not onlyat Lithgow, but elsewhere; and I wish to put ina plea for the building of houses to accommodate the employees of the Government Saddlery and Harness Factory at Clifton Hill.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– The Government are instituting a new system, and it promises to be most complicated. The land has been laid out under a proper system of town planning, and there are associated with the scheme obligations which the Government must carry for years. I fail to understand therefore why they should propose to sell these cottages, which are to be built specially for the employees of the Small Arms Factory. If they do dispose of them their action will lead to a great deal of trouble in the future. The Government must, however, take the responsibility. I think it will be almost impossible to sell these houses on the conditions which have been formulated; but I recognise that in the dying moments of the session it is useless to attempt to discuss the matter further.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 10002

QUESTION

ORDNANCE STORES, SYDNEY

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · Darling Downs · NAT

– I move -

That the following work be referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-14, viz., Ordnance Stores, Sydney.

The Government has secured a site at Long Cove, Leichardt, upon which it is proposed to ultimately erect ample ordnance stores accommodation. The work now projected consists of one building for ordnance stores purposes for the Department of Defence. This building will constitute the first portion of the entire scheme, which will be developed ultimately to meet defence requirements. The scheme is an alternative one, there being two proposals, one to cost approximately £60,000, and the other £65,000. I present the plans and specifications,and other necessary information.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 10002

LEAVE OF ABSENCE

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– I move -

That leave of absence be granted to every member of the House of Representatives from the determination of this sitting of the House to the date of its next sitting.

Mr Considine:

– When is the next meeting likely to be ?

Mr WATT:

– I cannot say at the present time, and I regard that as an entirely irrelevant interjection at this hour. This is a motion which has been submitted at risings of this kind ever since the war broke out, and Parliament, instead of proroguing, has adjourned during the Speaker’s pleasure. It covers all present members and members absent from Australia, and amply protects the representation of constituencies in a way quite impartial, and irrespective of party.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 10002

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion (by Mr. Watt) agreed to -

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until 3 p.m., on a date tobe fixed by Mr. Speaker, which day of meeting shall be notified by Mr. Speaker to each member by telegram or letter.

page 10002

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

Sale of Tin - Fodder Pool - Demobilization - Departure of Senator Pearce to England - Clemency to Internees and Offenders Prosecuted under the War precautions

Act - Valedictory Remarks

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

.- (By leave.) - There being no other business at the present moment, I ask leave to make an informal statement about certain matters in which honorable members are more or less interested. One has reference to the purchase of tin, in which the honorable member for New England (Lt. -ColonelAbbott) has displayed considerable interest. I was to-day orally informed by Messrs. Elder, Smith, and Company, the Australian agents for the Inter-Allied Tin Executive, that that executive has been dissolved. I have not received any official confirmation of the information, but it is plain to me that the British and Allied Governments have determined to make tin a free market. What the precise effect will be on the Australian industry it is at present impossible to decide.

Mr Tudor:

– I understand that the price dropped £1110s. to-day.

Mr WATT:

– I do not know what the figures of to-day are. I give this information to the press in order that those interested may receive it at the earliest moment, and as soon as it is possible to supplement it, I will do so by the same means.

The honorable member for Wannon (Mr. Rodgers) has for some considerable time interested the Government in the question of the creation of a fodder pool. The honorable member has addressed himself to the question here on severaloccasions, and interrogated Ministers about it. The Minister in charge of wheat (Senator Russell) has been for several weeks developing a scheme in concert with the States; and I am now able to make an announcement on the subject.

As the result of representations which were made to the Commonwealth Government, that there was a likelihood of a great shortage of fodder on account of the dry season in some parts of Australia, the States of New South Wales, Victoria, and South Australia were consulted with a view to offering inducements to wheatfarmers to cut their crops for hay. In order to encourage them to do so, the Commonweath Government intimated to the States concerned that it would make available to them, on application, funds for the purposes of advances at the rate of 50s. per ton to growers of hay, under the following conditions, which were subject to such modifications as may be necessary to meet local circumstances : -

  1. That the hayis produced by a farmer from the produce of his own farm; and
  2. That the hay is stacked and protected on his own farm in an approved manner, including, where the Minister of Agriculture of the State specifies, the erection of a mouse-proof fence of approved design.
  3. The advance to bear interest at the rate of interest usually prevailing in the State, as determined by the Minister.
  4. The person receiving the advance to insure, and keep insured, the hay, in an approved insurance company, to the amount of the advance, and to hand over the policy to the Minister.
  5. The person receiving the advance to give to the Minister a bill for the amount advanced, the Bill to provide for repayment of the amount of the advance within twelve months, and
  6. In the event of the person receiving the advance desiring at any time during the currency of the bill to use or dispose of any part of the hay forming the subject of the advance, a permit to be obtained from the Minister.

The moneys advanced by the Commonwealth to the States will be subject to interest at war loan rates. It will be necessary for the State Governments concerned to submit as early as possible for the approval of the Commonwealth Government copies of their proposed regulations in connexion with this matter. The Premiers of New South Wales and Victoria accepted the scheme, and are, it is understood,preparing regulations. South Australia has advised that it will not accept the scheme.

I now desire to make an announcement of a more important kind in connexion with demobilization. Since the termination of hostilities, the demobilization, embarkation, and repatriation of the Australian Oversea forces has received the unremitting attention of the Government. Intimate consultation by cable has been conducted between the Prime Minister and the Cabinet. As the result, a scheme for handling the important problems involved has been adopted. This necessitates the creation in Britain of a control embracing military and civilian personnel. The work to be accomplished at the other end includes - in addition to the shipping, feeding, and clothing of our men between the period of actual demobilization and embarkation in Britain - the great task of providing suitable occupation and training for so extensive a force during the inevitable period of idleness. This period, it seems, will cover from nine to twelve months, however excellent may be the shipping arrangements to return our men to Australia. The Government’s design is to see in the case of men who desire - during this period of waiting - to secure training in the primary or secondary industries in which they formerly had been engaged, or wish to be engaged, that the opportunity will be available for them. This phase of the question must be regarded as. preparatory to repatriation. After reviewing the whole matter, the Government have now decided that this work must be presided over by a responsible Minister. Official, or indirect, responsibility for matters affecting so closely the interests of the menwho have so splendidly fought for the safety of Australia will not be satisfactory to the people or Parliament of the Commonwealth. The Prime Minister will return as soon as the duties of the Allied Conference and the Peace Conference permit. It is, of course, impossible to fix a date at the present moment. The Minister for the Navy must return for the visit of Lord Jellicoe, who is leaving England in February to review the naval programme and outlook of the Commonwealth. It will, therefore, be necessary to despatch a Minister to London to arrive in sufficient time to take over the organization and administration there. This will be arduous work with little opportunity to learn the elements of the business. The Cabinet has, therefore, requested Senator Pearce, the Minister for Defence, to proceed to London to dis charge this important undertaking. Senator Pearce has consented, and his departure will be conditioned by the receipt of more definite information as to the movements of the Prime Minister and the Minister for the Navy at the other end of the world. This statement deals, as honorable members will see, with the problem as it presents itself in Great Britain. As indicated on former occasions, the Government is developing, with proper care, suitable machinery at this end to deal with the reception, training, and reabsorption of the Forces from overseas. It is hoped that the measures adopted will satisfactorily cope with this most important question.

Mr Mathews:

– I would like to say something about that, but I will not.

Mr WATT:

– The honorable member’s restraint is so unusual that I am reminded of a story of the great American orator, Chauncey Depew, who, in many respects resembles the honorable member; and perhaps I might be permitted, even at this late hour, to tell it. It is a story of Chauncey Depew being listened to by an old comrade and school-fellow, who had not heard the silver-tongued orator of the United States speak for thirty years. He had been lumber getting in the west, and had come back full of years and honour. After a Fourth of July oration the great man asked his old friend what he thought of his speech, and the reply was, “ I do not like to tell you, because you might be offended.” Chauncey Depew asked him to be quite frank, and then the answer came: “Well, Chaunce, if you got the small-pox, and they caught you early, you might get over it; if you got the Yellow Jack, and they got the mustard on you quick, you might recover; but if you got lock-jaw, you’d bust.”

Mr Mathews:

– I could tell a better story than that myself.

Mr WATT:

-Possibly; but you never do. However, I was about to mention another matter. The Government have given consideration during the last week or so to the exercise of clemency in connexion with certain offenders who have been successfully prosecuted under the War Precautions Act and regulations.

These were guilty chiefly of acts of indiscretion and defiance associated with the flying of the red flag. After consultation with the law officers of the Crown, we have determined to release those offenders. I am not quite sure whether it will be possible to release them all before the Christmas holidays. For this portion of the continent we can arrange, and they will be released without delay, possibly to-morrow morning, or on Monday at the latest. As to those who have been incarcerated in the more distant parts of the continent, it will be difficult, if not impossible, to release them before Christmas; but honorable members may rely that celerity will be used.

I have already explained that the Minister for Defence (Senator Pearce) has taken a very careful review of the cases of certain internees in the internment camps. Some releases have already been ordered, and a careful review of the cases has been and will be undertaken during this and the following week, to see whether, with due regard to the safety of the Commonwealth, clemency can be shown.

I have nothing further to add, unless I may be permitted, on behalf of the Government, to express to you, Mr. Speaker, our thanks for the way in which you have conducted the deliberations of the session. It has been an arduous session, straining many of us to the very limits of endurance. You, sir, I am sure, have felt the full weight of. this ; . but you have never varied from the strict path of impartiality you have set yourself. The members of the Government, and honorable members on this side generally, are deeply sensible of your unfailing kindness and courtesy on every occasion. I desire also to use similar expressions of grateful thanks towards the Chairman of Committees, Mr. Chanter. That gentleman is in years beyond most members of the House, but he has kept to his arduous labours through this session with wonderful tenacity, and he and his deputies, the Temporary -Chairmen, have considerably helped the passage of the large number of important measures which since September last, this Legislature has placed on the statute-book.

I wish, also, to pay to the officers of the House, the clerks and attendants, our thanks for the way in which they have lightened our labours. In another Legislature I have enjoyed the privilege of attendance of the same kind, but I have never seen at any table the work of the officers give more satisfaction, .or done with greater promptitude. We have so few opportunities to acknowledge to those gentlemen who attend us so unceasingly our appreciation of their unremitting labours that I gladly use this occasion to do .so. I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition will join with me in this acknowledgment of our obligation. I include with the officers the Chief of Hansard and his staff. . Honorable members may not have observed, but Ministers, and I in particular, have known the strain that has been thrown on “them, especially during the last week or two. All through the session it is bad enough, because our work goes on unceasingly, and the long hours that we have sat recently, have strained to their utmost stretch the* nerves, and drained the physical powers, of the gentlemen who record our speeches.” It became a question a week ago whether we should not have to take measures to relieve them, but their determination, and assistance that Mr. Speaker was able to render, have enabled them to continue, although both Houses have been sitting excessively long hours. I wish the Hansard reporters to know that we thoroughly appreciate their labours.

I may not be acting as Temporary Leader of the Government when next we meet - I certainly hope that I shall not - but in that capacity now I tender to members the sincere wishes of Ministers for their enjoyment of the holidays. With the new year may there dawn . a satisfactory and binding peace. We have been privileged to live in stirring times, particularly in these last months, when the enemy has been overwhelmed and the armies of civilization have been triumphant. It has been a great thing to witness the changes of heart and mind in the people of Australia since hostilities were terminated by the signing of the” armistice. We have been, perhaps, too busy to note all the kaleidoscopic changes, and what they mean to the history of mankind generally, but when we get further from them we shall be able to appreciate the magnitude of the events that have occurred under our very eyes. I trust that the peace conditions settled between the belligerent forces may make for the greater freedom of mankind and the more permanent uplifting, stability, and prosperity of the civilized nations.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I cordially join with the Acting Prime Minister on behalf of not only those members of the Opposition now present, but the party generally, in expressing our acknowledgment of our indebtedness to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the officials of the House, including the messengers, who make our path as easy as possible. We are, as the Acting Prime Minister has said, entering upon an era which we all hope will be a splendid one for civilization. Many have reason to’ wish that it had dawned years ago. We hope that the Conferences in Europe may bring about a real and abiding peace.

We have had, as the Acting Prime Minister has said, a” strenuous time, but we have had strenuous times before, and those of us who may be fortunate enough to be elected to future Parliaments have strenuous times yet to come. May I congratulate the Acting Prime Minister on the way in which he has led the House. We who have sat on this side, though not agreeing with everything he has done, can sincerely congratulate him on the skill which he has shown. It is infinitely more difficult for a man to fill an office when acting for another than to fill it as its proper occupant. Only those who have worked in an acting capacity, as I have done on more than one occasion, know the difficulties of the situation. I congratulate the Acting Prime Minister on the ability he has shown in very difficult and trying times, and on his capacity and good nature. Our work may appear easy to those who watch us, but it is not really so easy.

I re-echo the honorable gentleman’s wish that we may all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. The people of Australia are realizing that the holidays this year will be brighter than they have been for the last four years. I hope that when we re-assemble we shall find still greater happiness existing throughout the civilized world.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon W Elliot Johnson:

– I desire to thank you, Mr. Acting Prime Minister, for the very kind words of appreciation which you have been good enough to express regarding my conduct of the business of the House as its presiding officer, and I desire to acknowledge the consideration that I have received at all times from yourself as Acting Prime Minister and from Mr. Tudor as Leader of the Opposition, as also from honorable members generally. I recall somewhat vividly my occupancy of this position on a former occasion some years ago, when .because the electors could not make up their minds to give either side an independent ma jority on the floor of the House, I acted as presiding officer under circumstances which made me, willy-nilly, a storm centre. It was not of my own choice, but by force of circumstances, that on my casting vote depended momentous decisions of burning controversial questions. The position was not a very enviable or comfortable one, and the conditions were very different from those of to-day. Since I have been in the Chair during my present term of the Speakership I have felt in contrasting the present time with the stormy experience pf the past, like the pilot of a ship who, after weathering a succession of violent cyclonic tempests, finds himself at last peacefully at anchor in a haven of refuge. Although there is occasionally a tendency on the part of some honorable members to contribute liberally to the speeches of other honorable members, or for a number of members to endeavour to address the House simultaneously, so that now and then I have had to exercise my lungs freely in the effort to disentangle matters, I frankly confess that when it has been realized that fair discussion could not be conducted in that fashion, those interjecting have readily obeyed the call to order, and have assisted me to observe the procedure laid down by the rules of debate until further temporary impetuosity required intervention from the Chair. I have to thank honorable members for that. I acknowledge, too, the assistance that I have received from the Leader of. the Opposition as well as the Leader of the Government in conducting the business of the House. I should like to add to what has fallen from the lips of Mr. Tudor in paying my meed of” praise, as Dr. Maloney would say, to the Acting Leader of the Government f or the manner in which he has conducted the business of the House. He has, bv his courtesy, tact, and strong sense of humour, as well as great administrative capacity, in no small measure conduced to the harmony which has generally marked our proceedings. I am sure that all members of the House thoroughly appreciate the difficulties of his position, and recognise the admirable manner in which he has performed the arduous duties of his office.

On behalf of the officials of the House in all the departments, I have to thank the Acting Prime Minister for his eulogy of their services, and to add to what he has said my appreciation of their unfailing loyalty, and my testimony to the excellent manner in which they perform their duties and their willingness to do their best under very trying circumstances. I am sure that their work and their conduct generally is highly appreciated by members on all sides.

I thank you, Mr. Acting Prime Minister, for having so readily acceded to the request of Mr. President and myself that you should pay a sum of money out of your Advance by way of war bonus to the lower-paid servants of the House. They, I am sure, greatly appreciate this consideration, which has been given because of the effect of the war in increasing the cost of living.

I again thank the members of the House generally for the assistance I have received on all sides while presiding1 over its deliberations, and I wish them a happy Christmas and a prosperous new year, which I trust will usher in an era of permanent peace.

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; ALP from 1910; NAT from 1917; NAT and FARMERS from 1919

.- I thank the Acting Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition for what they have said concerning me. I appreciate highly their kind remarks concerning the manner in which I have performed my duties as Chairman of Committees. Members may at times feel somewhat irritated because they are not called when they think they should be called, but general good feeling has been shown towards me, and whenever I have appealed for support I have received it. The duty of the Chairman is to apply the rules and orders which have been laid down for the government of our proceedings. I am sure that Mr. Speaker will acknowledge that it would be very painful for the occupant of the Chair to have to appear to act harshly at any time.

It is not real harshness, and it is only displayed in conformity with the duty specially laid down in the Standing Orders to be carried out by the Chairman. I thank honorable members sincerely for the support I have received from them at all times, and I take this opportunity of thanking the Temporary Chairmen for the assistance rendered to me whenever I called upon them to relieve me for a short period; they have always responded, although often at considerable inconvenience to themselves. Now that we are going into recess for the first time for five years, may I express the wish that honorable members will enjoy that peace that Christmas always brings, without the dreadful happenings to which we have of late years been accustomed. May I be permitted, also to divert a little on this occasion in order to .-:d to the Acting Prime Minister and his colleagues that I hope that they will give effect to the wishes of the parents, relatives, and friends of a very large section of our Forces who have done a great deal towards winning the war, and who have been through the Gallipoli, Egyptian, and Palestine campaign, that, before they are finally returned to Australia, they shall have the final opportunity of visiting the heart of the Empire - the Mother Country. I hope that this general desire will be pressed by the Government on the authorities at Home, and that, before another Christmas comes, we shall have welcomed back to Australia all our brave men. I thank the Acting Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition, and Mr. Speaker for the complimentary manner in which they have spoken of me.

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– I have wired to the Prime Minister fully on the matter to which the Chairman of Committees has just referred, expressing the strong desire of the Government and Parliament that the Anzacs and other warriors who have gone into the Levant and Mesopotamian country shall be given the opportunity of visiting Great Britain before returning to Australia. I have no doubt that the matter will be strongly stressed by the Prime Minister. In my previous remarks, I omitted to refer to the general spirit of consideration shown by honorable members to the Government and myself. I welcome the spirit of courtesy that has grown up in the Chamber. My relationships with the Leader of the Opposition and his fellow members on that side have been pleasant to a degree. Of course, we have had our differences. We must continue to have them, separated as we are by stronglyheld political views, but my experience has been in the past - and there has been a recurrence of it this session - that there is no occasion for us to develop personal hatred or antipathies. The ordinary courtesies which can be observed by most men in every walk of life can be observed by representative men in a deliberative Assembly. I not only hope that we may have a continuance of that spirit, but also that there may be a perpetuation of it so long as this Parliament exists. It lightens public life, and gives a little zest to the otherwise onerous load that Ministers carry.

page 10008

QUESTION

DESPATCH OF DEFENCE CLERKS TO LONDON

Mr WISE:
NAT

– On the 19th December the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) asked the following questions : -

Is it a fact that as stated, that the Department is sending over thirty clerks from the Defence Department to London for the purpose of investigating soldiers’ records, and the work of the Australian Imperial Force in England, and, if so, is it true that out of the thirty men to be sent, only one is a returned soldier.

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

The facts are that twenty-five clerks and two officers will shortly be sent to London, together with a large mass of information compiled here to ascertain and correct differences between Australia and London as to individual soldiers not drawing rates abroad, which, of course, affects the rates of allotments in Australia. The work is necessary and unavoidable, and is practically only anticipating the work to be done upon demobilization, thus avoiding irritating delays to the soldiers upon discharge. As regards the proportion of returned, soldiers to be included in the number of clerks mentioned, the facts are that up to the present twenty-three have been selected. Of these, eight are returned soldiers, while most of the remainder are medically unfit, including rejects. The work is of an exacting nature, involving large experience of a particular class, so that selection cannot be confined to returned soldiers. Many of the latter who have been employed on the work up till recently have refused to go on with .the work to London.

page 10008

QUESTION

HOSPITAL SHIP MILTIADES

Mr WISE:
NAT

– On the 17th December the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) asked the following questions : -

  1. Is it a fact that on the hospital ship Miltiades, which arrived in Australia in August, .1917, with approximately 800 men on board, mostly invalids, military police were user! to keep the men off one side of the promenade deck, the same being used for seventy officers and sergeants?
  2. Is it a fact that, on the same ship, onelegged and otherwise disabled men had to go up and clown several flights of companion-ways to bunks and meals, while the officers had almost the whole of the cabin accommodation to themselves?
  3. Is it a fact that there’ were 400 cases of ptomaine poisoning through dirty teaboilers or some other preventable cause?

I am. now able to furnish the honorable member with thefollowing information : -

  1. One side of the promenade deck was reserved for officers and sergeants; the other three sides of the promenade deck, the main and boat decks, and the forward and aft well decks were available for the remainder of the troops.
  2. The Miltiades is not a hospitalship, but a hospital carrier, the difference being that the latter only carries men who require very little medical treatment. The system of carrying troops does not provide cabins for privates.
  3. No.

Sitting suspended from12.4 a.m. to 12.18 a.m. (Saturday).

page 10009

DEFENCE BILL (No. 3)

Message received from the Senate intimating that ithad agreed to the amendments of the House of Representatives in the Bill.

House adjourned at 12.20 a.m. (Saturday).

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 20 December 1918, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1918/19181220_reps_7_88/>.