House of Representatives
4 October 1918

7^th Parliament · 2^nd Session

QUESTION
- FOREIGN INVESTMENTS
QUESTION
- IRON INDUSTRY
QUESTION
- TASMANIAN SHALE OIL
QUESTION
- SOLDIERS ON LEAVE
INCOME TAX
QUESTION
- NORTHERN TERRITORY ADMINISTRATION
PAPERS
CITRUS CANKER
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH CLERICAL EMPLOYEES
QUESTION
- PRICE OF MEAT
POSTING OF WAR NEWS
QUESTION
- WAR-TIME PROHIBITION
QUESTION
- COMPULSORY WAR LOAN CONTRIBUTIONS
QUESTION
- MANUFACTURE OF WRE RODS
QUESTION
- CONSCRIPTION OF WEALTH
QUESTION
- CONSTITUTION CONVENTION
QUESTION
- TUESDAY SITTINGS
QUESTION
- FAIR BENTS COURT
QUESTION
- PRICE OF MEAT
QUESTION
- SEPARATION ALLOWANCES
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH CHAUFFEURS
QUESTION
- NORTHERN TERRITORY
ELECTORAL BILL
- Second Reading
NEW STANDING ORDER
- Limitation of Debate
EXCISE BILL
ADJOURNMENT
- Tin Producers Association - Copper Producing Industry: Zinc and Lead - Military Hospitals : Spinal Beds - Stoppage of Military Pay - Return of Anzacs

Mr. Speaker (Hon.W. Elliot Johnson) took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers.

page 6665

QUESTION

FOREIGN INVESTMENTS

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

– Some weeks ago I asked whether the Government was taking action to restrict the investment of Australian capital in foreign countries, and I was informed that the matter was under consideration. I should like to know the result “of that consideration?

Mr.WATT. - I have endeavoured to ascertain, hy inquiries addressed to our chief financial institutions, what drift of money away from Australia, if any, is taking place,, and the subject has been submitted to the Finance Council for its consideration. No determination has been come to, because those best able to judge are of opinion that no considerable leakage is occurring. I have asked the banks to advise me if any noticeable drift takes place, so that we may take action.

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QUESTION

IRON INDUSTRY

Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA

– “Will the Acting Prime Minister, at an early date, announce the intentions of the Government in regard to the establishment of the iron industry? Uncertainty regarding the Government’s intentions in this matter is preventing private enterprise.

Mr WATT:
Treasurer · BALACLAVA, VICTORIA · NAT

– The desire for a statement of the intention of the Government in this matter is natural on the part, not only of the interests concerned, but also of the community generally. One phase of the exercise of the option obtained over the Blythe River Company’s property has been submitted for the consideration of the Board of Trade, and until the Board’s recommendation has been received, the Government cannot announce its policy concerning the iron industry. An announcement on the subject will be made as soon as possible.

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QUESTION

TASMANIAN SHALE OIL

Mr ATKINSON:
WILMOT, TASMANIA

-Will the Acting

Prime Minister tell the House at what stage the negotiations concerning the shale oil deposits of Tasmania have arrived?

Mr.WATT.- I should have preferred notice of the question, but I am willing to answer it, so far as I can, from my recollection of the facts.. The honorable gentleman refers more particularly, I take it, to the Latrobe shale deposits, in which the Government of Tasmania is interested ?

Mr Atkinson:

– Yes.

Mr WATT:
NAT

– Some time ago the Premier of Tasmania asked this Government whether it would assist his Government, in dealing with these deposits. An arrangement had been arrived at between the Commonwealth and Tasmanian Governments for the supply of a large quantity of oil, the products of these fields, to the Australian Navy, and a ‘ Bill, based on that order, was submitted by the State Government to the Tasmanian Parliament, but was rejected by one . of the Houses. The Tasmanian Government, to make matters easier, desired some further assurance of an order, and possible assistance of another kind.’, from the Commonwealth Government. The matter was referred to the Navy Department, who replied that at the present time the Commonwealth would not be justified even in renewing its order, because the Navy’s requirements, with . nearly all its vessels in the” northern hemisphere, were now very small, and it was impossible to . say when the ships would return to these waters. We communicated this statement to the Tasmanian Government, and we said, too, that we were not disposed to take over the leases as was suggested. That, according to my recollection, is where the matter now stands.

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QUESTION

SOLDIERS ON LEAVE

Pay and Allowances

Mr TUDOR:
YARRA, VICTORIA

– Relatives of the soldiers who embarked in 1914, and are to be given six months’ leave to visit Australia, wish to know whether the period of leave will count from the time the men leave the lines, or whether they will get six months clear in this country?

Mr WISE:
Honorary Minister · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT

– The six months includes the time spent on the voyage, both ways. The men are expected to leave here as soon as their sixty days are up.

Last night the honorable member for Illawarra (Mr. Hector Lamond), and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Tudor) asked a question with reference to the issue of pay and allowances to the 1914 men on furlough. I am now informed that pay at net-drawing rates in advance for a period not exceeding sixty days’ leave in Australia is allowed. Warrant officers, noncommissioned officers, and men draw subsistence allowance of 3s. per diem for the period of leave in Australia, and it is paid in advance for a period not exceeding sixty days. Twenty-five per cent, deferred pay accumulated up to date of disembarkation is also granted if desired.

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INCOME TAX

Mr.FALKINER.- When speaking on the ‘Budget, the Treasurer said that it is proposed that the rates of income tax collected for last year shall be increased by 30 per cent. Did the honorable gentleman mean that three calculations willbe necessary to determine the amount of income tax payable ; that we must ascertain our liability according to the curve, which none ofus understand, and add 25 per cent, to that, and then another 30 per cent., or will a new curve be provided which will give the result in one calculation?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– ‘The taxpayer is not expected to make any calculations, the beauty of the curve being that if the taxpayer does endeavour to use it to illumine his darkness he is bound to be in error.

Mr Falkiner:

– I do not think that the Treasurer understands it.

Mr WATT:

– That is quite true. The assessment officers do not in the ordinary acceptation of the term make calculations. There is prepared for them a ready reckoner, of which I shall bring a copy to the House when the curve is under consideration, to show how easy the system is when you’ understand it:

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QUESTION

NORTHERN TERRITORY ADMINISTRATION

Mr MATHEWS:
MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA

– In view of the more than alleged difficulties under which the residents of the Northern Territory suffer, due to what appears to many tobe the lack of proper administration by the officials of the Territory, will the Minister recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into matters on the spot, and make arrangements whereby the Commissioner will not be . compelled to accept hospitality from the officials whose administration it will be his duty to investigate, nor from any one else?

Mr GLYNN:
Minister for Home and Territories · ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

– ‘The affairs of the Northern Territory have already been, investigated by several Commissions, one of which visited the Territory not very long ago. I do - not think that the matters, some of which are comparatively trivial, that have been submitted to me justify the expense which an inquiry by aCommission would involve. I am only too pleased that the honorable member has submitted complaints for my investigation, but many of the complaints that we receive are comparatively trifling. On one matter no fewer than twenty-three questions were asked, the answering or investigation of which occupied a considerable time; in other cases questions about procedure in Courts of justice have required a long investigation into, from the point of view of development, immaterial facts. I do not think that the appointment of a Commission to deal with these cases could . be justified. ‘Some time ago I endeavoured to ascertain if we could get some means of preventing disputes in regard to labour, but because of want of concert among the people of the Territory those efforts did not meet with success.

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PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Navy and Defence Administration - Report of Royal Commission on Navy Administration; together with Report (adopted) of sub-committee of Cabinet thereon.

Ordered to be printed.

Bounties Act - Return of Particulars for 1917-18 of Persons to whom Bounty Paid, Amount Paid, Goods, &c.

Shale Oil Bounty Act - Return of Particulars of Bounty Paid during 1917-18.

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CITRUS CANKER

Mr MACKAY:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND

– The existence in the Northern Territory of the fungus growth known as citrus canker is causing great alarm among citrus fruit-growers in Southern Queensland. I should like to know from the Minister what steps have been taken to deal with this pest.

Mr GLYNN:
NAT

– The honorable member was good enough to draw my attention to the matter, which I was already investigating. I secured the services of Mr.

Hill, the entomologist of the. Melbourne University, who visited the Territory, and an Ordinance was passed to prevent the extension of the pest. Since then, on the recommendation of Mr. Hill, all the trees affected with canker have .been destroyed. I think that the Ordinance and the- destruction of the trees have “been effective for the preventing of the extension of the pest.

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QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH CLERICAL EMPLOYEES

PREFERENCE to Unionists.

Mr RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is it a fact that the Government have passed an order taking from temporary clerical employees in the Public Service the preference to employment which was awarded to them by the Arbitration Court? If so, what is the reason for this order, and will it be extended to cover other Commonwealth employees ?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I know nothing of the matter, but if the honorable member will, state the facts more explicitly, I shall inquire into it.

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QUESTION

PRICE OF MEAT

Mr HIGGS:

– Does the Government propose to compensate the small retail butchers who have been compelled to go out of business because of the operation of the Government’s alternative pricefixing scheme?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Fenton:

– Why should it not ?

Mr WATT:

– I cannot argue the point at present, but there are reasons why voluntarism should be encouraged, as far as possible, in order that the amount of compulsory money - and the compulsion will be irksomely borne and accepted by the community in .some cases - may he a3 little as necessary. As long as I am endeavouring to raise war. loans I intend to encourage people to offer from patriotic impulses all they can to lie funds of the Commonwealth. Only to the extent to which that inducement fails, should compulsion he imposed.

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QUESTION

MANUFACTURE OF WRE RODS

Mr PIGOTT:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Acting Minister for Customs inform the House whether machinery has <been installed at Newcastle for the manufacture of wire rods to be used in the making of wire netting? It was promised some four months since that this machinery would be installed forthwith.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I have no very recent information, but understand that the company which was in negotiation “with the Government at the time for the installation of the plant is pressing on with the necessary preparations, and that the works will be established as rapidly as “possible. If the honorable member will put a question on the notice-paper I will endeavour to secure for him the most complete information.

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QUESTION

QUESTION

FAIR BENTS COURT

Mr PAGE:
for Dr. Maloney

asked the Acting Prime Minister., upon -notice -

In -view of its being war time, will he bring before the Cabinet the question of the necessity of considering the issuing under the War Precautions Act of a regulation forbidding the increase of rent above that paid before the beginning of the war, allowance to be made where actual improvements have been effected, and the increased rental to be based’ upon S per cent, of the cost of improvements, such increase only to be allowed on the production to a magistrate in the district of absolute proof by the landlord of such expenditure?
Will the Minister consider the establishment of a Fair Bents Court for protection against avaricious and unjust landlords?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– This matter was, in substance, considered by a previous Administration. In view of the difficulties of a legal and practical character which presented themselves, it was then decided to limit the regulation to cases of soldiers’ relatives. However, I shall ask my colleague, the Acting Attorney-General, to look specially into this matter, with a view to bringing it before Cabinet as early as possible.

page 6669

QUESTION

PRICE OF MEAT

Mr PAGE:
for Mr. Fenton

asked the Assistant Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

If it is a fact that some butchers in the country districts have closed their shops ‘in order that they may evade the price-fixing regulations in respect to cash sales over the counter, arid are charging prices very much over the fixed price by delivering the meat?
If so, will the Minister give relief to meat consumers by having a regulation brought into operation to deal with these methods?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

It is not known whether country -butchers have closed their shops in order to evade the Prices Regulations, but if the names of the districts are given, inquiries will be made.
If inquiry shows that such methods are being employed, steps will be taken to remedy the position.

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QUESTION

SEPARATION ALLOWANCES

Disciplinary Cases

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Is it the practice of the Government to stop payment of separation allowance to the wives of soldiers who are guilty of breaches of discipline?
Will the Government discontinue stopping the said allowance?

Mr WISE:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

No; except in the case of offences for which a member is discharged or dismissed from the Force, or in the event of illegal absence.
See reply to 1.

page 6669

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH CHAUFFEURS

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
for Mr. Gregory

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

How many returned soldiers are employed by the Commonwealth as chauffeurs in the Metropolitan Area (Victoria) ?
What is the percentage of returned soldiers so employed as chauffeurs?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– Inquiry will be made of all Departments, and information furnished to the honorable member as soon as possible.

page 6669

QUESTION

NORTHERN TERRITORY

Audit of Accounts

Mr PAGE:
for Dr. Maloney

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

What was the date of the last public audit of the Northern Territory by a Commonwealth Audit Inspector at Darwin?
On what date did the Audit Inspector now nearing Darwin leave Melbourne?
When is it expected that he will complete the audit of the accounts at Darwin?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

Continuous audits have been and are carried on by the Government Accountant, Darwin, who acts for the Auditor-General as an Audit Inspector.
The Audit Inspector now nearing Darwin left Melbourne in April last to examine the accounts in the Territory of Papua, with instructions to afterwards proceed to Darwin to make an exhaustive audit of the Northern Territory accounts.
In about a month’s time.

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ELECTORAL BILL

Second Reading

Mr GLYNN:
Minister for Home and Territories · Angas · NAT

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Fenton:

– Is there a redistribution in prospect?

Mr GLYNN:

– There may be, but I have not absolutely decided at present whether it is desirable. As to the figures relating to the marginal allowance, if in a fourth of the divisions of a State the electors are more than one-fifth under ot over the quota, a redistribution of seats may take place. For New South Wales there are twenty-seven seats, of which seven are above and four below the margin; in Victoria, there are twenty one, with four above and one below; in Queensland, there are ten, with one over and one under; in South Australia, there are seven, with two above and one below; in Western Australia, there are five, with one above and one below; and in Tasmania, there are five, with one above. In many the excess is exceedingly small, and may disappear at any time.

The chief objects of the Bill are to provide a standard of uniformity with the States; to restore, with modification of its scope and greater safeguards, postal voting; to establish preferential voting for the House of Representatives; to retain absent voting on polling day throughout the Commonwealth, and, before polling day, with extensions, voting before Registrars; to facilitate and make more effective registration; provide additional powers to, in certain cases, correct the. rolls after the issue of the writ by removal or reinstatement of names, and to protect electors against error by officers to simplify and remove duplications in the text; to give statutory sanction to some points of present procedure, such as in telegraphing the issue and contents of writs, so necessary in a large place like Australia; and to reduce the penalties in some cases, such as for offences in relation to advertisements, and so forth:

In regard to uniformity, I think honorable members will agree that a Federal system should aim at uniformity by concert as well as through overriding constitutional legislation. Legislative and administrative uniformity; simplicity, economy, and clearness; ought to be the aim- of our legislation, and those ends may “be attained by agreement with the States as well as by an amendment of the Constitution. As a matter of fact, in a great many States of the United States of America, there are arrangements providing for uniformity in a number of matters without resorting to any interference with the Constitution. Even in Germany, a country which is more conversant with mechanism than with morals, uniformity in many lines has been achieved. For instance, uniformity in regard to Federal and State taxation was introduced as far back as 1910. This matter has not been neglected by the Commonwealth Parliament. In speaking on the first Electoral Bill in 1902, I said -

I look forward to the time when, through a delegation of power solicited by the Federation and granted by the States, we shall have, in the Commonwealth and States, one Electoral Act, and one principle of division, involving, as they will, one suffrage, one set of officers, one roll, one mode of election, and one code to secure the purity of elections.

Mr GLYNN:

– The right elector may vote on making a declaration. By clause 122 we make a new provision to permit a person to vote whose name has been omitted by mistake. He makes a declaration that he is entitled to be on the roll, and on that declaration he is permitted to vote. Subsequently an inquiry is made as to the accuracy of his declaration. In connexion with the last election there were a few cases - I think only one or two - in which, through the error of the officers, some names were wrongly removed from the roll. The number of additions, removals, and collections from all causes in 1917 was 1,170,000. There is an immense number of alterations every year, because we keep the roll practically up to date. There must be a return by the letter-carriers at least every two months.

The system of postal voting was abolished in 1911. The present provisions, one of which was brought into force then, are for voting before a Registrar and absent voting oh polling day. A vote may .be recorded before a Registrar by an elector who, on polling day, will not be within a Commonwealth subdivision; he may vote any day after the issue of the writ. That provision applies especially to persons who reside in the Federal territories, to seamen, passengers on vessels, and others who will not be within the bounds of the Commonwealth on polling day. It is not availed of to a very great extent. At the elections in 1914 the number of votes recorded before Registrars was 1,030; in 1917, 1,604; and at the referendum in 19i6-l’7, 4,000. The majority of those votes were recorded by soldiers who were in camp and expected to embark at any moment. The machinery for voting before a Registrar is somewhat costly and cumbersome. Though we are not compelled to do it by Act of Parliament, for the sake of effectiveness, we have to send out ballot-papers, instructions, books, and envelopes; and I do not think that there is more than one Registrar in twenty who receives a vote under these provisions, which, however, are retained in this Bill, with extensions. The privilege of voting before a Registrar after the issue of the writ and before polling day, will apply to persons who will not be within 10 miles by the nearest practical route of any polling place on polling day.

Absent voters are provided for in clause 114. They may vote at any polling place in the Commonwealth on polling day. This provision will affect about 250,000 electors.

Mr Considine:

– Under which provision will the members of the Australian Imperial Force vote overseas?

Mr GLYNN:

– At the present time, they vote under the Electoral (War-time)

Act, and special provisions will be inserted in that measure. They are not dealt with in this Bill. The method of voting will not be the same as was observed at the last referendum, or at the last general elections, where, as honorable members are aware, our soldiers voted on party lists, the identification of those lists being carried out by the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr Considine:

– If there is to be an alteration in the conditions, it must necessitate an amendment of the Electoral (War- time) Act.

Mr GLYNN:

Mr Page:

– Is there any penalty on the authorized witness if he posts the ballotpaper ?

Mr GLYNN:

– I think it is £50 or £100 for non-compliance with the Act, but that is a matter of detail. At the scrutiny the signature on the face of the envelope containing the. certificate is examined and compared with the signature on the application sent in to the Returning Officer. In this way the Returning Officer is enabled to establish the identity of the voter. If the signatures are found to be identical the ballot-papers are taken out of the envelope and, without being examined, are placed in a separate box and sealed until the regular scrutiny commences. Honorable members will see that every precaution against error and corruption of any kind has been provided in respect to voting by post. The merits of the system are that it will provide voting facilities for about 77,000 electors not now enabled to make use of the absent vote or the provisions for voting before Registrars. The system is in force in all the States except New South Wales, and it has been recommended after full consideration by the Electoral Commission.

Now, coming to the important matter of the methods of election, some people may hold the belief that we - who are in possession - are scarcely in a position of being able to give a judicial opinion upon this question. There are two sayings by Burke, the seer of statesmanship, which may have some application. He has said -

The virtue, spirit, and essence of the House of Commons consists in its being the express image of the feelings of the nation.

If that ideal has never really been attained it is because party organization, with its subordination of some opinions to the working necessities of the times, is essential to success at the poll. Apart from the elections, independence of opinion may be obtained, but for the purpose of the elections, as things are going now, party grouping and party solidarity have almost become a necessary part of the electoral machinery. As regards the merits of party government, which will be somewhat affected by the new methods of election if they be adopted, Burke has said-

Party is a body of men united for promoting by their joint endeavours the national interest upon some particular principle in which they are all agreed . . . it is the business of the speculative philosopher to mark the proper ends of government. It is the business of the politician, who. is the philosopher in action, to find the proper means towards those ends and to employ them with effect.

Some men, forgetting that party organization, or action on lines of agreement, is a means to an end, have spoken rather disdainfully of party. Pope called it -

The madness of the many for the gain of the few. while Halifax spoke of -

The fools and knaves that make the wheels of the world turn. They are the world. Those men who have a sense of honesty sneak up and down single, but never go in herds.

However, such academic moralists ignore the conditions of movement, if not progress, and dream of a political perfectibility not likely to be realized in this, the vestibule of eternity. It is just as well for the electors, who wish to test the reputations of politicians by their records on all points, to remember that it is essential to have party organization for the purpose of gaining success at the poll. Lecky gives a sedative to conscience when he says:-

In free countries party government is the best, if not the only safe way of conducting public affairs, but it is impossible without a large amount of moral compromise; without frequent surrender of private judgment and will. A good man will choose his party through disinterested motives and with a firm and honest conviction that it represents the cast of policy most beneficial to his country. He will on grave occasions assert his independence of party, but in the large majority of cases he must act with his party, even if they are pursuing courses in some degree contrary to his judgment.

This condition of corporate policy and action should not be forgotten when, in the outer world of the censorship, the merits of a politician are decided, and personal records are referred to as the test of reputations.

Preferential voting was declared by the Ministry as part of their policy at the general election of last year. For that reason, it has been incorporated in this Bill. Its purpose is to secure majority representation in a division under the single-seat system… If it secures a majority for the same party in every constituency, its success would be its own condemnation from the point of view of representative government. That is my personal opinion. The rule of the many, and the voice of all, is something quite different from the dominance of authority without regard to adverse opinion.

Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA · REV TAR; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; CP from 1920; IND from 1928

– At the last two elections for the Senate, if the whole of the senators had gone up for election, the Labour party would have swept the polls on one occasion, and the Liberals would have done so on the next occasion.

Mr GLYNN:

Later on, I shall give some figures about the Senate. The principle of the single-seat system is to obtain the opinion of the majority in each division, and it is our duty to provide machinery to see that the system is effective; but, as a matter of fact, if majorities for one party only are obtained in every division, it would not be consistent with the principle of representative government. As a matter of working experience, the method of distributing seats prevents that result being obtained. The distribution of mass majorities seldom, or never, gives one party a majority in every division. This fact is due to the statutory conditions affecting the distribution of seats, including community or diversity of interests, means of communication, and physical features. It is also due to the fluctuation of neutral or non-party opinion. There are many voters right upon the margin between, parties who sometimes determine the issue of an election.

Mr Archibald:

– They generally do so.

Mr GLYNN:

– They do so more often, perhaps, than some party men are inclined to recognise. Therefore, it may be true, as Bagehot says that -

free Government is the most sternly stupid of all Governments to what is unheard by its deciding classes.

In the popular House, the results do not always exclude minority representation. In fact, one party only does not at any time command all the representation. The facts were put by John Bright, in 1865, at Birmingham, when he said -

The minority in Birmingham is in a certain sense represented, by the majority of Liverpool, and, taking the majorities in some districts and the minorities in others, if there is an opinion which is worth anything which is held by any constituency, as a matter of course, it has its representation which can speak on that behalf in the House.

Not only are minorities not excluded but in most elections for the House of Representatives a degree of proportional representation is attained. I give in support of this statement the results of the elections for the House of Representatives in 1910, 1913, and 1914. In 1910 one party, which I shall identify by calling it Labour, on the voting won 41 seats, but on the number of votes cast its proper proportion was 39.36 seats. The Liberal party, whose proper proportion on votes polled was 35.64, won 34 seats.

Mr Page:

– -That was not too bad.

Mr GLYNN:

– Just so, and I am showing that as a matter of fact proportional representation is often attained by the operation of the existing single seat systems and, as I have said, this is attributable to distribution and the fluctuation, of opinion. In 1913 the Labour party, on the number of votes cast, was entitled to 37.25 seats and won 37 seats. The Liberals were entitled at that election to 37.75 seats on the number of votes cast; they won 38 seats. In 1914 Labour’s proportion of seats on votes cast was 39.81, but the party won 42 seats, and the Liberal proportion on votes cast was 35.19, whilst the party won 35 seats. Some seats were of course uncontested, but the figures show that approximately proportional representation was attained. These figures show that you cannot secure by the single seat system the ends of proportional representation, though you may, so far as working necessities go, attain them. In 1917 the Labour party on votes cast was entitled to 33.09 seats and won 22 seats, and the Liberal party was entitled on votes cast to 41.91 seats and won 53 seats. As the minority may succeed through a split it is necessary, to prevent that, or to have some assurance that it will not occur - to have either the Caucus system, the preselection system, or to supplement the single seat with preferential voting. That is the logical position, and for that reason the principle is introduced in this Bill. It could be shown that in the United Kingdom, “where there is, or there was, no Caucus and is no preference, but where there is, of course, some grouping, the results at many elections were very irregular and practically non-representative. In 1906, for instance, the votes were 5 to 4, while the seats obtained were 3 to 1. I noticed that in the last issue of the Edinburgh Review, in an article dealing with some of these matters, it was stated that -

The Caucus which puts men into Parliament logically claims the right to control their votes. And the more necessary the aid of the Caucus becomes to the candidates, the more irresistible will be its control over their conduct.

The preferential method, if honestly applied, provides a remedy for a party split, gives the result of a second poll of the same voters, and scope for the expression of wider electoral opinion than any Caucus can give, since it enables all the electors to hear before giving party support to the candidates. That is not possible in the case of a preselection decision. The significance of this method is that the elector declares in advance his choice in each of the possible contingencies. In advance he says “ These are my contingent choices. Where three candidates are standing for one seat the elector says in effect “ Number 1 is my choice of the three; I prefer him, but if Number 1 is not in the running I shall give my vote to Number 2.” Honorable members will see that only one effective choice, and that is to say only one vote, is applied. There is only one vote, and it is an alteration in the choice of the vote which can be only once recorded, that is given under this system. The candidate is returned by an absolute majority of operative votes, and he then represents the majority of the division. The Party choice is made under this system, not through the Caucus, but at the same time as the choice at the poll, and the electors there may express their preferences between men of their own party.

Mr Blakeley:

– Does the honorable gentleman really think that the Government proposal is going to do away with the pre-selection ?

Mr GLYNN:

– Not necessarily, but I think it the duty of the legislature to afford opportunities adequate for the purpose. What men do outside will depend upon their own wisdom or folly, and we cannot cure that:

Mr Fenton:

– Both political parties will still indulge in pre-selection.

Mr GLYNN:

– Even if they do, that, will not to any extent neutralize the efficacy of this method of attaining the same end. What I say is that the method proposed by the Government will permit of the selections by the party taking place under the very same conditions as the selections by the electors. The platform declarations of the candidates who stand will be a test of their merits, and under this system the elector will be afforded an opportunity to make a fair choice between them. The method if misapplied may defeat its objects. It affords opportunities which can be properly applied and made effective, but if the system be misapplied it may attain the opposite of its end. Competition between candidates for the votes of the same party may result in an opponent’s return. The second preference may be given, and I think I have an instance of it here, to a candidate regarded as having no chance. This is due to an abuse of the system and the want of loyalty amongst the supporters of the same party. People who wish to be loyal to a party should mark their preferences accordingly and they are given an opportunity to do that by this method of election. I take the case of three candidates standing for a seat. A and B stand in the interests of one party, and C is a neutral. The first preferences are found to be - for A 1,900, for B 1,040, and for C, the neutral, 1,060. On the first preferences, there being no candidate securing an absolute majority, none is retired. The second preferences on B’s papers have to be transferred. The majority of first preferences is for A, but he is given only 52 of the second preferences, and the neutral man is given 988. This occurs if there is disloyalty between members of the same party, and if electors give the third candidate, whom they regard as an opponent, their second preferences.

Mr Jowett:

– Why say that they are disloyal? A great many of the electors may belong to neither’ party.

Mr GLYNN:

Mr Tudor:

– Where there are only two candidates for a seat, will the elector be compelled under the Bill to mark his own preference ?

Mr GLYNN:

– No; it is provided in the Bill that, in such a case, if the elector marks one candidate only, the vote will be considered formal, because that will have just the same effect as if he marked both candidates in sequence.

In view of the growing opinion in favour of it, I think I should say something about proportional representation, especially with regard to the Senate. It is not a Government policy adopted in this Bill, but I have received several deputations in connexion with the question, and it is, I think, due to sections of the community who take a keen interest in these matters, that some passing reference to the question should be made.

Honorable members will see from what I have said that we are justified in bringing in preferential voting for the House of Representatives. If it has not been adopted for the Senate it is because the Government did not declare it as part of their policy at the last election. The matter was left perfectly open, and it may be open to question, apart from proportional representation, whether we should not have the system of preferential marking for the Senate also. However, that is not provided for in the Bill.

Mr Mahony:

– Did not the senators tell the Government that they would “ boot “ the Bill out if proportional representation were proposed for that Chamber?

Mr GLYNN:

– I have told honorable members what the Government policy is. It is not necessary on the second reading to go into too much detail, and for that reason I have not gone into all the amendments which will be made to bring about uniformity.

– Queensland has never effectively applied it. It has never applied machinery for its adoption. I do not think that State has ever prosecuted a single man for non-compliance with the provisions of that Act. What has been the effect? At the last election the Administration ignored the penalties in respect of postal voting.

Well, it is our duty not to allow party or personal interests to touch too much the consideration of electoral methods, and to make, as far as political temperaments and motives may permit, Democracy effective for government. “Liberty, equality and fraternity the inspiring and partly-applied ideals of our valorous, emotional, and clear-eyed Allies, the French, and in essence the objects of British institutions, can never be fully realized without a healthy public opinion and methods of election that may secure it Parliamentary expression. The development of sound conceptions of government may be a matter for the people whose interests we have in trust; but it is for us to provide machinery that may make the legislature, with at times some inevitable defects of focus, the mirror of the nation’s mind.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I ask the Minister to consent to an adjournment of the debate for a fortnight.

Mr Richard Foster:

– A fortnight?

Mr TUDOR:

– Yes. Honorable members take as much interest in Electoral Bills as they do in any other measures that engage our attention. I am asking the Minister to consent to an adjournment for a fortnight. The honorable member for Wakefield is not a Minister yet.

Mr Glynn:

– Say an adjournment until Wednesday week.

Mr TUDOR:

– Then I understand that the measure will not be brought forward prior to that day.

Mr Blakeley:

– I desire to ask the Minister a question.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! This discussion is quite irregular. I allowed the honorable member for Yarra to say a few words because I could see that he had a certain object in view which appealed generally to honorable members. But the discussion must now cease.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Tudor) adjourned.

Mr Blakeley:

– Will the Minister have his speech upon the Bill printed and circulated ?

Mr Glynn:

– Yes, if it is the wish of honorable members.

*Sitting suspended from 12. 49 to 2.16. p.m.’**

page 6682

NEW STANDING ORDER

Limitation of Debate

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– I desire to move a motion, and, with your consent, Mr. .Speaker, and with the permission of the House, I will read it.

Mr Higgs:

– We ought to make you read it twice, as a punishment.

Mr WATT:

– If the honorable member got all he deserved, he would be a very much smaller figure than he is today. I wish to read this motion, because the veryreading of it explains itsobject and elucidates its wisdom. I move -

That notwithstanding any provisions inthe Standing Orders to the contrary, therebe forthwith adopted the following standing order, namely : -

Limitation of Debate. 262a. (I.) On the reading of a message from the Governor-General recommending an appropriation in connexion with any Bill, on the calling on of a motion for leave to introduce a Bill, or on the consideration of any resolution preliminary to the introduction ofa Bill, or at any stage of a Bill, a member of the Government may declare that the Bill is an Urgent Bill, and, on such declaration, the question “ That the Bill be considered an Urgent Bill” shall be put forthwith - no debate or amendment being allowed - and on such motion being agreed to without dissentient voice, or being carried by an affirmative vote of not less than twenty-four members, a member of the Government may forthwith, or at any time during any sitting of the House or Committee, but not so as to interrupt a member who is addressing the House or Committee, move a further motion or motions specifying the time which (exclusive of any adjournment or suspension of sitting) shall be allotted to all or any of the following : -

The initial stages of the Bill (including any motion or resolution preliminary to the introduction of the Bill) up to, but not inclusive of, the second reading of the Bill;

The second reading of the Bill;

The Committee stage of the Bill ;

The remaining stages of the Bill; and the order with regard to the time allotted to the Committee stage of the Bill may, out of the time allotted, apportion a certain time or times to a particular clause or clauses, or to any particular part or parts of the Bill. (II.) When Estimates of Expenditure are being considered, a member of the Government may at any time declare that the Estimates are of an urgent nature, and, on such declaration, the question’” That the Estimates of Expenditure be considered of an urgent nature “ shall be put forthwith - no debate or amendment being allowed - -andon such motion being agreed to without dissentient voice, or being carried by an affirmative vote of not less than twenty-four members, a member of the Government may forthwith, or at any time during any sitting of the Committee, but not so as to interrupt a member who is addressing the Committee, move a further motion or motions specifying the time which (exclusive of any adjournment or suspension of sitting) shall be allotted to each or any Department of, or to the whole of, the Estimates, (III.) When a Customs or Excise Tariff resolution is being considered, a member of the Government may at any time declare that the proposed resolution is of an urgent nature, and, on such declaration, the question “ That the resolution be considered of an urgent nature “ shall be put forthwith- no debate or amendment being allowed - and on such motion being agreed to without dissentient voice, or being carried by an affirmative vote of not less than twenty-four members, a member of the Government may forthwith, or at any time during any sitting of the Committee, but not so as to interrupt a member who is addressing the Committee, move a further motion specifying the time or times which (exclusive of any adjournment or suspension of sitting) shall be allotted to any portion or portions of the Tariff, or to the Tariff as a whole. (IV.) When any motion of any kind whatsoever has been moved, a member of the Government may at any time declare that the motion is an urgent motion, and, on such declaration, the question “ That the motion be considered an urgent motion “ shall be put forthwith - no debate or amendment being allowed - and on such motion being agreed to without dissentient voice, or being carried by an affirmative vote of not less than twenty-four members, a member of the Government may forthwith move a further motion specifying the time which (exclusive of any adjournment or suspension of sitting) shall be allotted to the motion. (V.) Upon such further motion or motions with regard to the allotment of time being moved, no debate thereon shall be allowed for more than one hour, and in speaking thereon no member shall exceed ten minutes. If the debate be not sooner concluded then forthwith upon the expiration of that time the Speaker or the Chairman shall put any questions on any amendment or motion already proposed from the Chair. (VI.) For the purpose of bringing to a conclusion any proceedings which are to be brought to a conclusion on the expiration of the time allotted under any motion passed under any of the preceding paragraphs of this Standing Order, the Speaker or the Chairman shall at the time appointed under the motion for the conclusion of those proceedings put forthwith the question on any amendment or motion already proposed from the Chair and, in the case of the consideration of any Bill in Committee shall then put any cluases, and any Government amendments and new clauses and schedules, copies of which have been circulated by the Government among members two hours at least before the expiration of the allotted time, and any other question requisite to dispose of the business before the House or Committee. No other amendments, new clauses, or schedules shall be proposed. (VII.) Standing Order “A” (The Closure) adopted by the House on 23rd November, 1905, shall not apply to any proceedings in respect of which time’ has been allotted in pursuance of this Standing Order. (VIII.) Where any time has been specified for the commencement of any proceedings in connexion with any business under this Standing Order, when the time so specified has been reached the business, whatsoever its nature be, then before the House or Committee shall be postponed forthwith, and the first-mentioned business shall be proceeded with, and all steps necessary to enable this to be done shall be taken accordingly.

– If honorable gentlemen see fit to pass personal gibes they must not complain if they receive the same in return. There is a limit to the patience of this side of the House.

I recommend this procedure as the best way of getting through our business as the country ‘desires us to do. It could become despotic if it were exercised without discretion-if it were not tempered by judgment. But, if it were used in that way, the people themselves would arise and inflict condign punishment upon the parties guilty of perpetrating such blunders or crimes. The party in power has to take responsibility not only for its measures, but for its procedure. Should the circumstances demand it, this standing order will be used with moderation, but with effect. On that understanding, I hope that it may be accepted by the House, and carried.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Tudor) adjourned.

page 6685

EXCISE BILL

Second READING

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · Bass · NAT

– I move -

That this Bill bc now read a second timol

The Excise Act, like the Distillation and Beer Excise Acts, all of which were passed in 1901, has never yet been amended, but many complaints have been made to the Customs Department regarding details of administration under it, and it is now thought advisable, for the advantage of manufacturers and merchants doing business with the Department, and in the interests of the revenue, to amend it.

Since 1901 there has been a considerable development of the tobacco industry in Australia. The tendency is, and has been, for control to centre in wealthy corporations, and for the work to be done in centralized factories. As the largeness of the works now operating in some of the States makes supervision more, costly to the Department than it was in the past, it has been thought proper to revise the scale of licence-fees, basing the sum to be paid on the relative output of the f actory. Thus, under Schedule VIII., a factory manufacturing tobacco, cigars, cigarettes, and snuff to an amount not exceeding £5,000 in value in any one year will pay a licence-fee of £5, which is the fee now payable. The charge increases by graduated steps until a factory producing over 500,000 lbs., but not over 1,000,000 lbs., must pay a licence-fee of £500, with an increase of £100 for every additional 1,000,000 lbs. or part thereof of output.

Clause 8 provides for the extension of the period within which licences may be renewed and the annual fee paid. Licences run from the 1st January to 31st December, and then automatically cease;, and, should the fee for renewal not be paid on the latter date, the licence and the security bond given in respect of it lapse, necessitating fresh application and fresh security. The period within which a licence may be renewed is being extended by seven days. This will overcome troubles which have been experienced arising out of the Christmas holidays, and is an alteration wholly in the interests of the manufacturers.

As in the case of the Beer Excise Act, the scale of securities to be given by manufacturers has been amended. It ranges from £200, which must be paid by the small manufacturer, to £7.500 for the largest factory.

The amendments provided for in. clauses 9 and 10 have been made to overcome difficulties in the way of manufacturers who desire to transact business not contemplated or provided for when the original Act was drafted. For instance, under the Act, a. manufacturer when forwarding his goods under bond to another district or State can do so to a “ licensed Customs warehouse “ only at such destination. This may prove highly inconvenient, as he may desire to remove his goods to a port where the purchaser will pay duty on them when landed at the ship’s side, thus obviating the expense and delay of transfer to a licensed Customs warehouse. This the amendments will make possible.

Clause 1’4 adds- to the list of offences specified in section 120 of the principal Act that of obtaining any refund of duty not payable, or, in plain words, of fraudulently obtaining money from the Department in the shape of a refund of duty to which the person is not entitled. In connexion with the manufacture of tobacco and cigars, large amounts are annually paid as refunds on stems and waste. The amendment, which is on the lines of a provision in the Customs Act, safeguards the revenue in this connexion.

One of the most important amendments affects section 144 of the principal Act. That section, provides, in effect, that the averment of the prosecution contained in the information shall he deemed to he proof in the absence of proof to the contrary, a provision similar to that in section’ 255 of the Customs Act. But, in connexion with a Customs case in which reliance was placed, on those words, the High Court ruled, on an appeal from the decision of the magistrate, that in any case in which this section was used reliance must he placed entirely upon the averment, thus precluding the calling of evidence on matters in regard to which proof was possible. It also pointed out other defects in the provision. These defects the amendment seeks to remedy. (Wherever possible, without danger to the revenue, amendments have been made in the Bill to facilitate the transactions of the manufacturers.

Other minor amendments will be explained during the Committee stage. The Bill has two. objects - the protection of the revenue and the enabling of manufacturers to complete their business transactions more” rapidly.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I had a glance through the Bill when it was first circulated a few days ago, and also at the memorandum, which I received by post this .morning, setting out the alterations proposed to be made in the Act. I know from my experience in the Customs Department that many alterations are needed to bring the Act up to date. The honorable member for Kooyong (Sir Robert Best) will bear me out in that statement, good though this and other similar measures which were passed in 1901 were. These measures were drafted by the late Charles Cameron Kingston, a man who knew as much about drafting, if not more, than any other man who ever sat in this Parliament, and whose work was a model which any Minister or draftsman might well imitate. The Bill, as explained by the Minister, is on right lines. There are some minor matters upon which we shall need explanation in Committee, but I am in favour of the measure being passed as speedily as possible, because it will improve the machinery for the protection of the revenue, and. will prevent unscrupulous traders from getting an advantage over their fellows.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee:

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 (Amendment of section 4).

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I understand that this amendment of the principal Act is necessary to enable a transfer of authority from the Controller to any officer acting for him.

Mr Jensen:

– Yes; the position at present is very inconvenient.

Mr TUDOR:

– Those who have held office as Minister for Trade and Customs know . that the Minister is often called upon to sign authorities for officers to act for the Controller or for collectors, and) others. Will this amendment do away with that requirement?

Mr Groom:

– Not exactly. The honorable member is referring to delegations.

Mr TUDOR:

– Will not this amendment cover delegations of power?

Mr Jensen:

– At present the Collector is the only person who has power to deal with matters covered by the section, and that power cannot be transferred to any one else. ,

Mr TUDOR:

– Since this amendment of the principal Act will enable a transfer of power to the person acting for the Collector, I think it is a step in the right direction.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 3 to 10 agreed to.

Clause 11 (Repeal of sections 64, 65, and 66).

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.-Under this clause three sections of the principal Act dealing with the licence-fees paid by manufacturers of cigars, cigarettes, and snuff are repealed. What does the Minister provide in lieu of them ?

Mr Jensen:

– The sections repealed bthis clause are no longer necessary since the matters covered by them are dealt with in clauses 7 and 8 of this Bill.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 12 to 18 agreed to.

Clause 19 -

Section 163 of the principal Act is amended -

by inserting after the word “ State “ the words a Commissioner for Declarations,”; and

by adding at the end thereof the words “ of the Public . Service of the Commonwealth.”

Section proposed to be amended -

Any declaration prescribed may be made before anyjustice of the peace in any State, or before any officer.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- Under this amendment of the principal Act declarations may be signed before any member of the Public Service of the Commonwealth. Previously declarations had to be made before a justice of the peace, but it is now proposed to allow them to be made before a commissioner for declarations or any member of the Public Service. It might not occur in actual practice, but it seems to me that under this amendment it would be possible to make a declaration before a telegraph messenger regarding evasions of duty.

Mr Groom:

– Even so, the person making it would be punishable if his declaration were false.

Mr TUDOR:

– I recognise that; but it seems to me that the provision that a declaration may be made before any officer of the Public Service is too wide. In the Electoral Bill no such provision is to. be found in regard to the witnessing of postal ballot-papers, and I think the extension in this case is too far-reaching.

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for Trade, and Customs · Bass · NAT

– It appears that, under the existing law, great inconvenience, and sometimes expense, are caused to manufacturers in the country districts, where it has at times been found impossible to obtain a justice of the peace before whom to make a declaration. This clause should assist considerably in enabling officers of the Customs, Postal, or Electoral Departments to take declarations.

Sir ROBERT BEST:
Kooyong

– There is a good deal of force in the contention of the honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Tudor). A difficulty in the matter would be to define what a “senior” officer is, and this might affect a declaration rather seriously. If a prosecution took place the defence might be that the declaration was never made, because it had not been made before a “senior” officer, and it would be for the Court to say whether or not he was senior.

Generally our laws very properly provide that declarations shall be made before responsible individuals, and if it is made possible, as proposed by the amendment, to have a declaration made before a junior of the Public Service, it would be against all precedent, and be a source of danger. If the public convenience has to be. further consulted, it would be quite possible to have a commissioner for taking declarations appointed in particular places in order to afford the necessary facilities. The clause, as it stands, is too wide. If the Minister desires to have an officer of the Public Service, he ought to provide that he should be an officer not below a certain class.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- So far as I remember, there are only beer, spirits, tobacco, cigars, and cigarettes liable to Excise. Starch and sugar used to be liable, but I think they are not so now. It will be seen that the goods that are liable to Excise are practically all manufactured in large centres of population. It may at times be difficult to find a justice of the peace, but there is a certain amount of danger in leaving the clause as it stands. As a matter of fact, the Department might not know that the declaration had been made, and it might be provided that the Department be notified of the fact.We all desire to prevent leakage, and conserve the revenue, and, at the same time, to safeguard honest men who pay 20s. in the £1.

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · Bass · NAT

– I think there is a good deal in the contention raised by the honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Tudor) and the honorable member for Kooyong (Sir Robert Best), and, therefore, I move -

That the words “of the Public Service of the Commonwealth “ be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof, “ of Customs, Postmaster, or Electoral Officer.”

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 20 (Repeal of section 165).

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- All our Acts contain such a section as it is now sought to repeal, and I wonder if this amendment is a forerunner of a similar one in every other measure. At the end of every Act it is provided that all the regulations made shall take effect from the date of publication, but shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament within seven days after publication if Parliament is sitting, and, if Parliament is not sitting, within a certain number of days from the commencement of the next session. Then, if either House of Parliament disallows a regulation by resolution at any time within fifteen days after it has been presented, the regulation shall cease to have effect. I take .it that the Government propose now to strike out that safeguard. I admit that this particular provision in our legislation .has been practically a dead letter, but, all the same, I think we have a right to see regulations that are published.

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · Bass · NAT

– It is proposed to repeal this section of the Act because the Rules Publication Act now provides the necessary machinery to make regulations.

Clause agreed to.

Clause .21 -

Schedules VL, VIII., IX.., and X. to the principal Act are repealed, and the following Schedules inserted in their stead : - “ Schedule VIII.

Scale of Fees for Licences to Manufacture.

For every factory wherein the weight of tobacco, cigars, cigarettes and snuff or any of them proposed to be manufactured in one year, shall in the aggregate -

Mr JENSEN:

– It is too low where two or three officers must be employed in an establishment to exercise the necessary supervision. What we desire to secure by this proposal is that the services we give in the way of supervision shall be paid for by- the tobacco companies. Under the amended schedule, the fees imposed in the case of the smaller establishments have not been increased, but they are increased in the case of the large establishments to a sufficient sum to pay for the services rendered by the supervising officers. It is proposed that the fees shall be increased from £250 to £500 where the output of the factory reaches 1,000,000 lbs. weight, and where the output is over and above that weight a further fee for supervision will have to be paid. Several Governments have been in office in this country, but they never tackled this question. Now, after many years, the present Government proposes to say to the tobacco manufacturers, “ You shall pay for the services rendered by the Commonwealth Government.” This proposal is not to impose a tax on tobacco. That tax was imposed two weeks ago. This is a proposal really to increase the licence-fees to such an extent as to enable payment to be made for services rendered by Commonwealth officers which have not been paid for in the past.

Mr.FENTON (Maribyrnong) [3.27]. - The Minister for Trade and Customs has made out a strong case to show that the tobacco manufacturers ‘should pay more than he proposes to charge them. I point out that he is creating an anomaly when he proposes that the fees shall run from £5 to £500. The fee in the case of an establishment with an output of 1,000,000 lbs. weight of tobacco is to be £500, and for each additional 1,000,000 lbs. of output, there is to be an additional fee of £100. The result of this will be that a manufacturer turning out 2,000,000 lbs. of tobacco every year will be called upon to pay a fee of £600, whilst another turning out 1,000,000 lbs. of tobacco each year will be called upon to pay £500. Can the Minister for Trade and Customs say that that is an equitable method of apportioning the fees?

Mr Corser:

Mr Hector Lamond:

– We are only repeating arguments about the Tobacco Trust that we used to hear from your side of the House.

Mr MAHONY:

– We should devise means to make the Tobacco Trust disgorge some of the huge profits which it has wrung out of the people. We should also stop it from passing the increased cost of production on to the worker. One of the best ways of doing this has been pointed out by the honorable member for South Sydney (Mr. Riley). He said the Government should follow the example they set in dealing with the wool-top industry. They took half the profits of the people engaged in that occupation. , Why single out that industry for special treatment, and allow all these huge combines to carry on as they like? The Government should say to the Tobacco Combine, “ Your profits are so’ much, and you have watered your stock so much,” .because, after all, the watered stock is an even more formidable item than the ordinary profits shown on the company’s balancesheet. We should at least make these people disgorge half the profits shown by the returns on their watered stock.

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

,- Under Schedule VIII. there is a certain ratio of increase in the licence-fees, and when a weight of 1,000,000 lbs. is reached the fee is £500. But for each additional 1,000,000 lbs., or part thereof, the increase in the fee is only £100. In my opinion, the tobacco manufacturers whose output exceeds the 1,000,000 lbs. per annum should have their fees increased on the basis of the preceding ratio. which works out in this way: Exceeding 10,000 lbs., but not 20,000 lbs., £20; exceeding 20,000 lbs., but not 50,000 lbs., £50; exceeding 50,000 lbs., but not 100,000 lbs., £100, and so on. The incidence of the scale as it stands is so unjust that I hope honorable members will recognise the wisdom of amending it, so that the Tobacco Combine shall not escape its fair share of this taxation, if taxation it can be called. I recollect when the fee was made £5. Upon that occasion a deputation from the great tobacco manufacturers in Melbourne waited on the Minister in opposition to the proposal. But it was, nevertheless, imposed. I intend to move that in paragraphj all the words after 1,000,000 lbs. be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ and shall increase in’ the same ratio as the preceding licence-fees.”

– Of course, they will. But, just as in the Lighthouse Bill it would have been competent for any honorable member to have moved for an increase in the light dues, it is competent for any honorable member to move for an increase in the amounts of these licencefees.

Mr.Kelly. - The Leader of the Opposition has put a supposititious case. I submit that there is no warrant for his statement that any honorable member was at liberty, in connexion with the Lighthouse Bill, to move for increases in our light dues. Certainly that question was never tested. Had such a proposal been made, it would have been resisted on the very ground that has been urged by the honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Page). I hold that it does not matter whether a tax is designated by the name of revenue or of a licence-fee. It has to be paid, and the honorable member for Maranoa has found a good point, which invalidates the amendment..

Dr Maloney:

– I desire to speak to the point of order, and to suggest that, in moving for the insertion of the words “ shall increase in the same ratio as the preceding licence-fees,” I have simply endeavoured to alter the incidence of paragraph j. The amendment would mean that the fees would continue to increase in the same’ ratio as the fees previously set out in this schedule. I cannot see that there can be any objection to that

Suppose that all the items up to paragraph i had been carried, and that the words embodied in my amendment had been inserted, that amendment would not have increased the ratio of the fees. Standing order No. 171 states -

No amendment for the imposition or for the increase of a rate, tax, or duty shall be proposed by any non-official member in any Committee on any Bill.

If honorable members will look at the head of Schedule VIII. they will see “Scale of fees for licences to manufacture.” I do not wish to take any unnecessary point, but there is a difference between “ licence-fees “ and a tax or a duty. No honorable member will say that this is a duty, or that it is a tax. It is certainly a receipt of money by the Government, and I could wish it was more; but I hope that you, sir, will rule that it is neither a tax nor a duty.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Atkinson:
WILMOT, TASMANIA

– While the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) was speaking, I understood that he was going to ask the Minister (Mr. Jensen) to move an amendment on the lines that he himself has followed. When the honorable member moves his amendment, it will be time enough for me then to give a ruling.

Mr Page:

– On a point of order,I disagree with the opinion you have just expressed. I distinctly heard the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) say that he would move that the rates be so-and-so. That is why I asked for your ruling on the matter.

Mr Fenton:

– No ; the licence-fees. The schedule is headed “ Licence-fees.”

Mr Page:

– Never mind what it is headed; it is the rates which are under consideration.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.I was waiting for the honorable member for Melbourne to move his amendment, after which it was my intention to give my decision.

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

.- I desire to move an amendment, and I trust that the Government will accept it. I hope, indeed, that the Minister himself will indicate his willingness to move it. I move -

That in paragraph j all the words after “ 1,000,000 lbs.” be left out, and the following words inserted : - “ and shall increase in the same ratio as the preceding licence-fees.”

Mr JENSEN:
Minister - for Trade and Customs · Bass · NAT

– I cannot accept the amendment, and I hope the Committee will not support the honorable member. The Department has gone fully into this matter, and has asked, in this schedule, for an increase of 100 per cent., and much more in some cases, in the licence-fees payable by tobacco manufacturers for the services of Excise officers who supervise their factories.

Question - That the words proposed to be struck out stand part of the clause - put.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 29

NOES: 16

Majority … … 13

In division:

AYES

NOES

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member for Maranoa rose to a point of order. The matter was discussed for some time, and after that I accepted the position that the honorable memberfor Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) had moved a certain amendment. As a matter of fact, however, that amendment had not then been moved, though afterwards it was submitted. When that stage was reached no honorable member rose to a point of order, and I, therefore, put the amendment. Had the point of order been again raised, I would have ruled that the amendment was in order.

Mr Richard Foster:

– I take another point of order.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.I think the honorable member is distinctly out of order now.

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with an amendment.

Standing Orders suspended and report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 6695

ADJOURNMENT

Tin Producers Association - Copper Producing Industry: Zinc and Lead - Military Hospitals : Spinal Beds - Stoppage of Military Pay - Return of Anzacs

Motion (by Mr. Groom) proposed -

That this House do now adjourn.

Lt.-Colonel ABBOTT (New England) [4.5]-. - As a matter of urgency, I wish to draw attention to the questions put by me the other day regarding the proposed Tin Producers Association of Australia, and to the replies to them furnished by the Minister. Although I asked nine questions, the real points at issue were evaded, and no definite reply, was given as to the action contemplated. I think that the primary producers should know what the Government intend to do in controlling such an important industry as the tin industry. Apparently, the interests of the producers are to be handed over to the Tin Producers Association; but there appears to be no representation in that association of the working miner, who is the real primary producer. If we do not safeguard his interests now, we shall probably find later that his position is similar to that of the small woolgrower, whose sales of wool have been restricted to £10. We do not desire any hole-and-corner business in this matter. The public is entitled to know what the Government propose to do. What is the objection to Ministers taking the House into their confidence and putting on the table the papers (containing all particulars regarding the association, and declaring what is intended in regard to the tin industry? Because of the experience that we have had of the action of the Wool Committee regarding the sale of small lots of wool, it is necessary that we should have this information. Members of Parliament stand towards those whom they represent much as directors stand towards the shareholders of a company. I think that this matter, should be dealt with in a Bill. Thaf would allow us to discuss the pros and cons of the case, and every one would know what was happening. We could then impose safeguards against future troubles. The Minister told me that it is intended to promote the manufacture, of tin plates in Australia; but what is there to prevent the Tin Pro- ducers Association from handing over to one company a monopoly of the manufacture of tin plates, so that the whole of the tin sold in Australia must go through its hands, and it will be able to fix a price which the primary producer must accept? The primary producer will not be able to sell in the Old Country, and the result will be that tin will fall in value considerably, as happened last week. I have a lengthy wire in my possession, which shows that since rumours have been in circulation regarding the proposed action of the Government the value of tin has decreased by 6s. per unit on the English parity price. I ask that, before action is taken regarding the Tin Producers Association, the representatives of the tin-producing industry and the working miners in that industry shall have the matter placed before them, so that their opinions may be submitted to this House, and we may know whether they are satisfied with the Government .proposal. We are told that only men or companies producing a ton of tin per week are to he accepted in this cooperative company which is being formed. How many companies produce a ton of tin per week? You can count the number on your fingers. But many thousands of small men gain a living from small tinprospecting shows. Are we going to put them in the position of the small woolgrowers by compelling them to wait three to six months for a return? These men are the backbone of the tin industry, and their interests are entitled to consideration. Such a man wins a half bag or a bag of tin, worth fi or £2, gets rations for it from the storekeeper in the nearest town, and returns to get more tin. This goes on month after month and year after year. It seems to me that if underthis scheme all the apples have to be placed in the one basket, the result will be that, as in the case of the small woolgrower, the producers of tin will have to wait for three months before they get any returns from their labour. I ask the Government to let us know what conferences have taken place. Is there anything to be ashamed of? Surely we are entitled to know what is happening. In the interests of a big section of the community who are deserving of consideration, we should be advised of the actual position before any definite steps are taken in regard to the personnel of this association. Are the directors of the association to be appointed for one month, six months, twelve months, or for life? Who is going- to appoint them? We are told, not that the tin producer is to be represented on the association, but that a Government nominee who will look after the interests of the tin producer will be appointed. That does not satisfy me. There should be direct representation, from the tin producers, who have everything to lose or gain from this arrangement. It is useless to wait until the association has been formed, and to raise a hue and cry after the damage has been done. Let us have direct representation of the small men. Let the Government lay all their cards on the table. Let them tell us what has been the result of their consultations, and if everything is shown to be all right no more need be said of the matter. But do not let us make a mistake which might have the effect of forcing our tin producers to deal with an association which has a monopoly and can ‘ control prices, with the result that the working miners, who should be considered, may be given a lower price for their tin than they ought to receive.

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

.- The House will have considerable sympathy with the honorable member for New England (Lt. -Colonel Abbott). I can see no reason whatever why every phase of this movement should not be made completely open to the public. I should like the public of Australia to know by means of a Ministerial statement in this House how the scheme originated - who has been behind it; who has suggested it; what purpose it is to serve, and by what policy it is to be. governed. The honorable member has taken a very right action in thus seeking in this House to protect his own constituents.

Mr Considine:

– We want this information in regard to not only tin, but the base-metal business generally.

Mr KELLY:

– I deeply regret the fact that a good deal of this management of the sale of Australian products has been hedged about with too much, mystery. I have heard all sorts of rumours, which, in perhaps ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, are quite unjustifiable. But there are suspicions in the public mind - in the minds of small men generally - as to whether the British Government are getting the benefit of the special prices placed upon Australian products.

Mr Bamford:

– It is very doubtful.

Mr KELLY:

– Then I urge that the Minister in charge of the Australian Pools ought to give to the Australian public figures and facts guaranteeing to our producers that the sacrifices they are making in selling below the world’s prices are “benefiting the British Government, and. therefore the British people, and are not being reaped by the British middleman. I gather, although I am not aware of the facts, that in this case, as in others, it is proposed that there shall be a reduction below the world’s price for tin for the benefit of persons oversea. I am prepared at any time, and am sure that every honorable member is, to make any reasonable sacrifice in the value of our products for the benefit of the British people, who largely protect us here today. But we want to be sure that it is the British people, and therefore the Empire, that benefits, and not some clever manipulator of affairs at the other end of the world.

Take, for instance, the position in regard to copper sent to England, which may reasonably go to . England at the price fixed; or, better still, take the position in regard to molybdenite, in respect of which there was a still greater disparity between the world’s price and that allowed for the Australian product. At the time I have in mind, the price allowed us was only 50 per cent, of its true value. It has been sent to England by arrangement with the British Government at that price, and we want to know whether the British Government or some middlemen have been reaping the benefit. If the middlemen have been securing the advantage, then our whole pooling system is badly administered. Personally, I think the British Government secures the benefit of the arrangement, but the public should be satisfied that it does. I am delighted that my honorable friend has raised this question.

I wish now to make, in a few words, a correction of a statement supplied on Wednesday by the Assistant Minister for Defence (Mr. Wise). Some time ago I asked a question in reference to the use of spinal beds. On Wednesday the Assistant Minister for Defence replied in this House - and I give the answer in order to explain how far he has been misled by his officers - as follows : -

In reference to a question asked on Thursday last by the honorable member for Wentworth. (Mr. Kelly) about the equipping of military Hospitals with proper spinal beds, I have ascertained that at every hospital where proper spinal beds are required these can be obtained without difficulty, and have been obtained wherever necessary. The beds have been provided by the Bed Cross Society and private donations, but, if any difficulty should be found in this respect, can be obtained from Ordnance Stores.

The Randwick Hospital, which is known as No. 4 General Hospital, is probably the largest in Australia, and in that hos.pital as recently as six weeks ago there was not one spinal bed. As the result of the action taken by Miss Edith Walker, a public-spirited Sydney lady, in presenting one of them to the hospital, I then ascertained that a particular class of patient could be benefited by the use of these beds. I got in touch with the hospital authorities, and secured a rearrangement of the hospital so that spinal cases should be kept on the ground floor to allow of their ready ingress and egress, on these spinal beds, to and from the open air. I asked the hospital authorities what improvement they could suggest on the bed presented by Miss Edith Walker. They offered certain suggestions,- and I gave the manufacturer here in Melbourne an order for an improved bed. He told me that, curiously enough, the bed as sought to be improved by the Randwick Hospital authorities was the very bed offered to the Defence Department a considerable time ago by the Red Cross, and that the offer was turned down.

I ask the Minister to see the officer who supplied him with the erroneous information that he gave in answer to my question. I do not care what he does with him, but I ask him now and here for twelve beds to be at once forthcoming for the Randwick Hospital. I desire that they shall be of the improved type. I learned only to-day that the authorities at the Caulfield Hospital have found out the faults which they have themselves placed in these beds. I ask for a sufficiency of beds for the Randwick Hospital to begin with, and for every hospital in Australia. In a matter of this kind, these hospitals should not have to wait for the Red Cross to help them. The public generally do not know what chances there are of improving the unfortunate position of returned men suffering from spinal trouble. The man in the street does not seek to inquire what opportunities of this kind offer, but the Department, which knows of them, ought to provide these facilities. I urge the Department to see that every Australian hospital is equipped with its proper quota of spinal beds.

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

.- I beg to support the honorable member for New England (Lt.-Colonel Abbott) in his request, and also to draw attention to the position of the copper producers. The Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) is understood to be unable to induce the Home authorities to purchase- copper beyond 31st October, and the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt) said the other day that he had cabled to the Prime

Minister, asking how far he was at liberty to suggest to the Home authorities that they should allow our copper producers to sell their product to Allied countries. Australia is so far away from the central markets of the world that producers may be disadvantaged, and the Government ought to be prepared to allow these business deals to be discussed openly by the House.

However, I rose particularly to draw attention to the reply by the Assistant Minister for Defence (Mr. Wise) to my question as to whether the Department was stopping the separation allowance, and, in some cases, the allotment money of soldiers who get into disgrace on the other side of the world. I cannot understand how any member of the Government can continue this practice for a moment after the injustice has been pointed out. These dependants are not responsible for the indiscretions or breaches of discipline by the soldiers. The honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. McGrath) the other night forcibly and pathetically showed us how easy it is for a soldier at the Front to get into trouble - how the very dreadful experience he goes through may shatter his nerves, make him liable to be absent without leave, and subject him to a sentence of imprisonment for years. I am sure there is no honorable member outside the Government favorable to the practice of the Department; and I ask how long it is to go on. We ought to be allowed to express an opinion on the question whether dependants are to be deprived of their sole support for such reasons; and it is to be hoped that the Government will see that the dependants are paid. Such soldiers, when they went away, did so to do their duty, and, though they may have failed, their failure ought not to be visited on their parents, wives, or children. We know that, in some mysterious way, the sins of the father are visited on the children ; but there is no occasion for the Government to add to their miseries.

Mr HECTOR LAMOND:
Illawarra

.- I should like some Ministerial statement of the attitude of the Government in regard to the suggestion I made last night about preparing for the return of the Anzacs. Whatever is to he done must be done quickly, if the first men to arrive are to have any benefit.

Mr GROOM:
NAT

– I understand that the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt) is dealing with the matter, and I shall convey the honorable member’s representations to him.

Mr HECTOR LAMOND:

– This business will involve an expenditure of, at the very lowest, £70,000 before all is over, and if we had even an adverse decision from the Government, we could appeal to the public with, I think, success. We ought to be informed, by Wednesday next, at the very latest, whether the Government are prepared to shoulder the responsibility.

Mr CONSIDINE:
Barrier

.- I desire to support the request made by the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott), in the hope that,_ as the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Higgs) said, the whole question of the “ basic metal industry of the country will , be dealt with openly, and all. the facts laid before honorable members. I have endeavoured to obtain information from the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt) with regard to the deal in zinc and lead between the British Board of Trade and the Australian companies. This is a matter that vitally interests my constituents, who are mainly engaged in the mines at Broken Hill; but no information can be obtained as to the circumstances surrounding this deal. In reply to my question, the Acting Prime Minister said he had information from the British authorities that it was not advisable to make those circumstances public. I cannot see that the prices or output can, by any stretch of the imagination, be construed as information likely to be of service to enemy countries; and if the present silence is observed, it may lead to grave dissatisfaction outside. When the men employed at the mines seek increased wages, in view of the high cost of living, there are no facts available on which they can base their claim, or on which their claim can be answered. In such an event, they will be placed in a similar position to that which arose when a case was before the Arbitration Court, and certain confidential information was handed to the presiding Judge. Such action in regard to the mines at Broken Hill would be most unsatisfactory from my point of view. Those who are actually employed in the industry are entitled to know the conditions operating from the point of view of the share market. We know that a great deal of gambling goes on in regard to mining shares; and if information is in the hands of relatively few people, and the market keeps jumping about, with large sums changing hands, there is created suspicion that ought not to be connected wilh the business. The Government will be well advised if they take the House into their confidence.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at 4.29 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 4 October 1918, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1918/19181004_REPS_7_86_c1/>.

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House of Representatives 4 October 1918

QUESTION

FOREIGN INVESTMENTS

Mr HIGGS:CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

QUESTION

IRON INDUSTRY

Mr McWILLIAMS:FRANKLIN, TASMANIA

Mr WATT:Treasurer · BALACLAVA, VICTORIA · NAT

QUESTION

TASMANIAN SHALE OIL

Mr ATKINSON:WILMOT, TASMANIA

Mr Atkinson:

Mr WATT:NAT

QUESTION

SOLDIERS ON LEAVE

Mr TUDOR:YARRA, VICTORIA

Mr WISE:Honorary Minister · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT

INCOME TAX

Mr WATT:NAT

Mr Falkiner:

Mr WATT:

QUESTION

NORTHERN TERRITORY ADMINISTRATION

Mr MATHEWS:MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA

Mr GLYNN:Minister for Home and Territories · ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

PAPERS

CITRUS CANKER

Mr MACKAY:LILLEY, QUEENSLAND

Mr GLYNN:NAT

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH CLERICAL EMPLOYEES

Mr RILEY:SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WATT:NAT

QUESTION

PRICE OF MEAT

Mr HIGGS:

Mr MASSY-GREENE:Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

POSTING OF WAR NEWS

Mr CHANTER:RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WATT:NAT

QUESTION

WAR-TIME PROHIBITION

Mr LISTER:CORIO, VICTORIA

Mr WATT:NAT

QUESTION

COMPULSORY WAR LOAN CONTRIBUTIONS

Mr FENTON:MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr WATT:NAT

Mr Fenton:

Mr WATT:

QUESTION

MANUFACTURE OF WRE RODS

Mr PIGOTT:CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MASSY-GREENE:Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

CONSCRIPTION OF WEALTH

Mr LISTER:

Mr WATT:NAT

QUESTION

CONSTITUTION CONVENTION

Mr HECTOR LAMOND:ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WATT:NAT

QUESTION

TUESDAY SITTINGS

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr WATT:NAT

QUESTION

FAIR BENTS COURT

Mr PAGE:for Dr. Maloney

Mr WATT:NAT

QUESTION

PRICE OF MEAT

Mr PAGE:for Mr. Fenton

Mr MASSY-GREENE:Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

SEPARATION ALLOWANCES

Mr HIGGS:

Mr WISE:NAT

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH CHAUFFEURS

House of Representatives
4 October 1918

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA

Mr WATT:
Treasurer · BALACLAVA, VICTORIA · NAT

Mr ATKINSON:
WILMOT, TASMANIA

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr TUDOR:
YARRA, VICTORIA

Mr WISE:
Honorary Minister · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr MATHEWS:
MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA

Mr GLYNN:
Minister for Home and Territories · ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

Mr MACKAY:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND

Mr GLYNN:
NAT

Mr RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr LISTER:
CORIO, VICTORIA

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr PIGOTT:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr HECTOR LAMOND:
ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr PAGE:
for Dr. Maloney

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr PAGE:
for Mr. Fenton

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr WISE:
NAT

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
for Mr. Gregory

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr PAGE:
for Dr. Maloney

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr GLYNN:
Minister for Home and Territories · Angas · NAT

Mr SPEAKER (Hon W Elliot Johnson:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA · REV TAR; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; CP from 1920; IND from 1928