House of Representatives
13 September 1917

7^th Parliament · 2^nd Session

QUESTION
- GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
QUESTION
- MEMBERS OF BOARDS
QUESTION
- REVIEW OF SENTENCE
QUESTION
- WAR PRECAUTIONS REGULATION
QUESTION
- TELEPHONE MONITORS
QUESTION
- INTERCEPTION OF WIRELESS MESSAGES
QUESTION
- DISEASED MEAT ON TRANSPORTS
QUESTION
- TELEPHONE CONDUITS IN BUSH TOWNS
QUESTION
- DISMISSAL OFSEAMEN
QUESTION
- FEDERAL CAPITAL
QUESTION
- HISTORICAL RECORDS OF AUSTRALIA
QUESTION
- EXPORTS TO DUTCH EAST INDIES
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH STEAM-SHIPS
QUESTION
- DUTY ON FILMS
QUESTION
- INDUSTRIAL CRISIS IN NEW SOUTH WALES
QUESTION
- LAND FOR REPATRIATION
QUESTION
- AUSTRALIAN TRADE WITH AMERICA
QUESTION
- NAVAL DOCKYARDS
QUESTION
- STAFFING OF GOVERNMENT. COAL MINE
QUESTION
- PUBLIC SERVICE : FORTNIGHTLY PAYMENTS
QUESTION
- WATTLE BARK INDUSTRY
QUESTION
- IMPERIAL WAR SERVICE MEDALS
QUESTION
- COST OF LIVING INQUIRY
QUESTION
- ELIGIBLES EMPLOYED IN SMALL ARMS FACTORY
QUESTION
- STATE PENSIONS FOR SOLDIERS
QUESTION
- CONSCRIPTION REFERENDUM: SOLDIERS’ VOTES
QUESTION
- PEACE TERMS
QUESTION
- PREFERENCE TO UNIONISTS
PAPERS
SHALE OIL BOUNTY BILL
WOOD PULP AND ROCK PHOSPHATE BOUNTIES BILL
PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE BILL
- Second Reading
WAR LOAN BILL (No. 2)
COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS BILL
- Second Reading
LOAN BILL
ADJOURNMENT
- Friendly Societies - Queensland Fruit Industry

Mr. Speaker (Hon. W. Elliot Johnson) took the chair at 2.20 p.m., and read prayers.

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QUESTION

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Prime Minister inform the House what business the Government propose to deal with before the adjournment, and when that adjournment is likely to take place, so that honorable members may make their arrangements ?

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · BENDIGO, VICTORIA · NAT

– For the answer to the first part of the question, I refer honorable members to the noticepaper. We intend to-day to introduce a Bill to provide for the payment of a bounty upon the production of crude shale oil, and another to amend the Wood Pulp and Rock Phosphate Bounties Act. Of those already before the House, we shall deal first with the Loan Bill, now under consideration in Committee ; then with the Public Works Committee Bill, and the Committee of Public’ Accounts Bill, both, I think, non-controversial; with the Naturalization Bill, which is a non-party measure, and should not give rise to much discussion; with the consideration of the Senate’s amendments in the Railways Bill; and with the Defence Bill.

DISEASED MEAT ON TRANSPORTS

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

– In order to remove a slur that has been cast on the Melbourne City Abattoirs, and which, is keenly resented by the Melbourne City Council, I desire to ask the Minister for the Navy whether he can inform the House where the livers, diseased with hydatids, that were supplied by Mr. Angliss to the Navy for consumption on board transports, were obtained. The Melbourne City Abattoirs deny that they were . responsible for any of these livers, going out, and they wish the matter to be cleared up.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
NAT

– Answering this very old . question, I should like to say that the information I have dearly indicates that part of the supply of diseased livers came from abattoirs controlled by the Melbourne City Council. The remainder came from private abattoirs, which also had been, or should have been, inspected under the State health laws.

Dr Maloney:

– Is Mr. Angliss the owner of the private abattoirs ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Yes; there is no secret about the matter.

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QUESTION

TELEPHONE CONDUITS IN BUSH TOWNS

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

– Will the Postmaster-General supply the House with a list of the isolated bush towns in which he is laying down the telephone conduits, to which reference was made last night ?

Mr WEBSTER:
NAT

– I have been waiting an opportunity to do so.

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QUESTION

DISMISSAL OFSEAMEN

Mr BRENNAN:

– Some time back I asked the Minister for the Navy a question relating to naval men called upon to fill the place of strikers. The right honorable gentleman replied that he could not answer hypothetical questions. As one unionist to another, I now ask him whether he will give sympathetic consideration to the case of a man named Barry, who was called upon to do duty on board the steam-ship Sulla, under the control of the Department of the Navy, and who at the time was also discharging his own duties. By reason of the fact that he felt himself unable to do this particular work, he has been dismissed. Will the Minister consider the propriety of that policy?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
NAT

– I am under the impression that there is on the noticepaper a series of questions concerning that, case.

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QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL

Acquisition of Land

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

– Will the Minister for Home and Territories state when he proposes to pay some of my constituents in the Federal Capital Territory for land that was taken over two years ago, or whether he intends to pay them at all?

Mr GLYNN:
Minister for Home and Territories · ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

– In the six or sevencases covered by the honorable member’s question, there was a slight doubt as to whether we were compelled to complete the transactions, which were entered into by my predecessor in office, Mr. King O’Malley. Having looked into the merits of these cases, I thought the landowners should be paid. I applied to the Treasurer for the money, with the result that the Cabinet decided to-‘ recognise the transactions as if they had been made by this Government. On the money being forthcoming we shall settle with these landowners.

ADJOURNMENT (Formal).

Regulations Under War Precautions Act - Deregistration of Unions,

Mr. SPEAKER reported that he had received from the honorable member for Yarra’ an ‘ intimation that he intended to move the ad journment . of the House, to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, “ The issue of the regulations under the War Precautions Act.”

Five honorable members having risen in their places,

Question proposed.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

gave notice of his intention to move that a certain regulation be disallowed, thinking that the placing of such a notice on the notice-paper would prevent the regulation becoming operative until the motion had been dealt with. He was, however, wrong in that conclusion. A notice of motion to disallow a regulation has to take its place in the ordinary list, and my experience is that- it is seldom that we have an opportunity to discuss any notice of motion standing in the name of a private member, and no such motion is ever carried unless the House is practically unanimous.

Three regulations under the War Precautions Act have been issued to-day. One of these relates to the deregistration of unions. It is regulation No. 212, and it provides that -

After Regulation 29 of the War Precautions (Supplementary) Regulations the following Regulation is inserted : - “ 30. (1) Where the Governor-General is satisfied that any association or organization of employees registered under any Commonwealth or State Act relating to arbitration ‘or the prevention or settlement of industrial disputes has, or that members thereof or of any branch or section thereof have, since the making of this regulation ceased work or become engaged in a strike or cessation of work the Governor-General may by notice in the Gazette declare that he is so satisfied, and thereupon the registration of the association or organization shall for all purposes whatsoever be deemed to be cancelled and the members of the association or organization shall cease to be entitled to the benefit of any award ap- 1plicable to the association or organization, or, where the declaration applies only to one or more branches or sections of the association or organization, the registration of the association or organization shall as regards the members of that branch or section of those branches or sections be deemed for all purposes whatsoever to becancelled, and the members of that branch or section or those branches or sections shall cease to be entitled to the benefit of any award applicable to the association or organization. “ (2) Within seven days after the publication of the Gazette of any such declaration application may be made to the AttorneyGeneral by or on behalf of the association, organization, branch or section to which the declaration relates for the cancellation of the declaration, and if, after the AttorneyGeneral has heard the representations made by or on behalf of the association, organization, branch, or section, the Governor-General is satisfied that the association or organization, or the members thereof or of the branch or section, as the case may be, did not cease work or become engaged in a strike, or cessation of work, the GovernorGeneral may by order cancel the declaration made by him; and the declaration shall thereupon be deemed to be and to have been of no effect.”

The whole object of this regulation is to place on the unions, or branches of unions, the obligation to prove their innocence, thus inverting the ordinary processes of law, and what has been understood to be the foundation of justice in the community. First of all, a union is declared guilty, and is then called upon to prove its innocence. N/o one knows better than the Prime Minister the struggles that these organizations have had to obtain an award in the Arbitration Court. They have to wait for long periods before their cases can be heard, and I think I am safe in saying that years may elapse before an award is obtained; and now it is sought to sweep away all these rights and privileges because somebody thinks that something has been done that ought not to have been done. When the War Precautions Act was introduced by the present Prime . Minister, as Attorney-General, he, as reported on page 369 of Hansard, of the 28th October, 1914, said-

The Bill is. one that the present circumstances call for. It has been drafted to meet certain conditions lately arising, which the laws of the Commonwealth and the proclamations issued by the Governor-General have been insufficient to deal with. The Bill confers upon the Commonwealth power to make orders and regulations of a far-reaching character, and, as honorable members may see in clauses 4 and 5, is mainly directed to preventing the leakage of important secrets, to secure the safety of means of communication, railways, docks, harbors, or public works, and to deal effectively with aliens, and, in certain circumstances, with naturalized persons. Its aim is to prevent the disclosure of important information, to give power to deport, and otherwise deal with aliens, to interrogate and obtain information in various ways, and to appoint officers to carry into effect any orders or regulations which may be made under the Bill.

I was a member of the Government which introduced that measure, and I declare deliberately that not a member of that

– Yes. This document is headed “ Amendment of the War Precautions Regulations,” and proceeds -

After Regulation 40c of the War Precautions Regulations the following regulation is in- . serted : - “ 40D. Any person who by word, deed, or otherwise - (a.) Interferes with, impedes, prevents, or hinders shearing operations or any work connected therewith, or incidental thereto, or the loading, carriage, unloading, handling, or storing of wool, or . . .

Interferes with, or impedes, any person or body of persons engaged in, or dissuades, prevents, or hinders any person or body of persons from becoming, or continuing to be, engaged in shearing operations, or any work connected therewith, or incidental thereto, or the loading, carriage, unloading, handling, or storage of wool, shall be guilty of an offence.”

A third regulation, dealing with wharf labourers, says: -

After Regulation 40b of the War Precautions Regulations the following regulation is inserted : - “ 40c. Any person who, by word, deed, or otherwise -

Interferes with, impedes, prevents, or hinders the discharge, loading, coaling, or despatch of shipping, or the performance of any industrial operation connected therewith or incidental thereto, or

Interferes with, or impedes, any person or body of persons engaged in, or dissuades, prevents, or hinders any person or body of persons from becoming, or continuing to be, engaged in, the discharge, loading, coaling or despatch of shipping, or the performance of any such industrial operation,, shall be. guilty of an offence.”

There is a case now before the Court having reference to a carter who was driving a lorry-load of wall-paper, and, as alleged by the newspapers, was told not to take it to its destination. Its- destination was not a transport,, and the wallpaper had nothing to do with the war. The man who said “Don’t take that” was alleged to have broken , a regulation under the War Precautions Act. Apparently the Court said that the wall-paper did not come within the purview of the regulation under which the prosecution was instituted, and the case was dismissed, but the representativeof the Government asked for , a case to be stated1, with a view to taking proceedings in a higher Court, probably with the object of Weeding the union of all its funds if it attempts to fight the case. It is very- easy for a Government, with the whole of the wealth of the community behind it, to smash an organization by taking cases from Court to Court, in the hope that in the end the workers will be defeated, and it is quite possible for this to be done under these regulations.

Great exception has been taken to the administration of the censorship regulations. We were informed yesterday, in reply to a question submitted, that the Argus was allowed to. publish the manifesto of the Strike Committee in Sydney, while the LabourCall was not permitted to do so. I am anxious to know whether the Argus has been dealt with1 under the War Precautions Act, or why the censor should prevent one newspaper from publishing what the Argus was allowed to publish. There is an additional censorship regulation, to tighten it up, I suppose; and it reads as follows: -

Regulation 28 is amended by inserting the following new sub-paragraph (4) : - “ (4) Any proprietor, printer, or publisher of any newspaper or periodical, and any author, printer, or publisher of any book, circular, or other printed publication, in which a report or statement is spread or made in contravention of this Regulation, whether contrary to the instructions of the proprietor, author, printer, or publisher, or otherwise, shall be guilty of an offence against this Act.”

A speech was delivered in another place on Thursday last by Senator Gardiner in connexion with the present industrial dispute, and though the newspapers controlled by my friends opposite gave full publicity to the remarks of Senator Millen, the representative of the ‘Government in the Senate, they did not give much publicity to the remarks of Senator Gardiner, and I understand that when permission was sought to publish a reply in the Labour Call, it could not be obtained.

I wish to place on record two sentences given utterance by Mr. .Justice Higgins in dealing with the Government’s application for the deregistration of the “Waterside Workers Union. I am quoting from the Argus of the 3rd September. Mr. Justice Higgins, speaking to Mr. Starke, who represented the Commonwealth Attorney-General, .said: -

Are you in a position to explain why the Prime Minister does not deregister the organization under the new regulation under the War Precautions Act?

Mr. Justice Higgins was aware of the existence of ‘this regulation, that we have received officially only to-day. Later on Mr. Justice Higgins said - 1 confess that I should like to act as a Judge should act, without a sword hanging over the Court, that ‘if he does not comply with an applicants wish, the applicant may do it himself.

That was an unfair position in which to place the Judge of the Arbitration Court. If the Government were honest in their desire to see the law administered fairly, and if they had any intention at that time of doing ‘that which. this regulation gives them power to do, it was their duty to have taken such action without appealing to the Court. The Government have n® right to govern ‘this country -by regula tion. When the honorable member for Flinders (Sir William Irvine)- was discussing the War Precautions Bill on 28th October, 1914, he said -

Clause 5, especially, deals with particular measures requisite for the maintenance of effective defence and security, such as the prohibiting of aliens from embarking, the preventing of persons from disclosing information, and from communicating with the enemy. With regard .to all these things, Parliament will be prepared to give to the Executive the fullest powers required.

Every honorable member on this side is in hearty agreement with that statement;, but we object to the War Precautions Act being -employed for purposes which have absolutely nothing to do with the war. Honorable members opposite may say that the Act is in existence, and they will use it as they like.

Sir John Forrest:

– It was intended by the honorable member’s party for use against the “ other fellow.”

Mr TUDOR:

– It was intended for use against enemies’. I defy anybody to say that the Labour Government intended to use the Act against employers as a class, as it is being used by the present Government against employees as a class. The workers were never intended to be brought within the scope of this Act ; but the present Government have stretched the War Precautions Act for the purpose of intervening in an industrial dispute, and not with a view “ to the settlement of the trouble. The honorable member for Flinders continued -

But I feel a good deal of apprehension about the first part of clause -4. I know what theGovernment probably desires to obtain by it, but the method proposed for giving effect to that intention goes to a -length which I think has never been gone before; and the matter ought, therefore, to be considered. The clause, says the Governor-General may make regulations for securing the public safety and defence of the Commonwealth. That provision is absolutely unlimited. It invests the Executive. Government of the day with the most complete power to legislate, whether Parliament is or - 13 not sitting, on any matter touching the actions or conduct of any member Qf the, community.

That is the reason why I object to the use of these regulations as they are being used at the present time.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is -urging’ that the same regulations shall be used to reduce the cost of living.

Mr TUDOR:

– That would be a fair use to make of them, because we should be protecting the interests of the . whole of the people; but <if honorable members opposite object to the “War Precautions Act being put to that use, let them say so. I thank the honorable member for Wannon for hig interjection. He desires the Act to be employed against the strikers, but not against the food exploiters. The Act may not be used against the profitmonger, who, according to the Prime Minister’s description, gives £50 to a patriotic fund, and robs the people of £5,000 by an increase of prices, but it may ibe used in an endeavour to smash, down the unions.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– On a point of order. When the Leader of the Opposition objected to the War Precautions Act being used in connexion with the strike, I asked if he took the same objection to’ its being used to reduce the cost of living. Thereupon the honorable member asserted that I had said that the Act should be used for the purpose of dealing with industrial disputes. Is that statement in order?

Mr.SPEAKER (Hon. W. Elliot Johnson). - The honorable member for Wannon was doubly out of order - firstly, in interjecting, and secondly, in interrupting the Leader of the Opposition on what was not a point of order.

Mr TUDOR:

– When Parliament has no opportunity of dealing with these regulations, the Government should not use the powers conferred upon them by- the War Precautions Act in a direction which was never intended by Parliament when the Act was passed.

Mr HUGHES:
Prime Minister and Attorney-General · Bendigo · NAT

– The Leader of the Opposition has complained of certain regulations issued by the Governor-General, and has given some reasons for his disagreeing from the action taken by the Government. He has said a great deal about those regulations, but he has not been accurate in one single citation of facts. When he deserted that firm ground of generalities upon which he and his friends stand so securely, and sought to thread his way through the maze of facts, he became lost. He asserted that we had no right to resort to regulations, and in almost the same breath he upbraided me because I sought the remedy duly provided by Statute, and had dared to go to the Court appointed by this Parliament, when I had power to, act under the very regulation which he condemns. How, then, can I escape censure ? When I do the very thing that the honorable member says I should, like any other citizen - resort to the Court - my action brings on me the sharp censure, not only of the honorable member, but also that of the Judge of the Court. As to the latter, I shall not refer to it further than to repeat what I said in the Argus of 4th September, when I expressed my regret that the Judge of the Court had sought fit to animadvert on the exercise of the powers of the Governor-General, which are clearly outside the scope of the Court? With the exercise of the Executive’s powers of government the Judiciary has nothing at all to do. A Judge is to interpret the law and decide on its merits the case that is brought before him. It is not for him to inquire into the motives of those seeking the protection of his Court, nor to declare that he will not give relief because the litigant has power to redress his own wrong. It might be said in many an assault case that the plaintiff had power to redress his wrong, but would any magistrate reprove a man for coming to the Court for protection instead of taking matters into his own hands ?

I deny that any of the regulations are improper or unnecessary. On the contrary, they have been more or less effective in protecting the community which, during five or six weeks, has suffered through a large section of the workers deserting their posts. What do the regulations do? Regulation 30, to which allusion has been made, provides that on and after the 29th August any union that may strike - and mark you the unions were practically all on strike at that time, and had then been on strike for four weeks - shall be deregistered, but can, if it likes, show cause why it should be re-registered. After a strike had been in existence for four weeks we said, “ If any more unions come into the field, we shall deregister them. We cannot allow you to hold up the community and threaten a general strike.” The object of the regulation was to deter unions from striking, and it has been fairly successful. What union has suffered under this regulation? Not one. The only action taken subsequently to the issue of the regulation was my application to the Court for deregistration under the Statute, which in no way arises out of the regulation, and which I could have made at any time previous to its issue.

Then there is the regulation providing for the cancellation of preference. I have not time now to quote from my articles on preference in the Case for Labour. The considerations in collective bargaining between employers and employees are preference to unions in return for a continuous supply of labour. But are the unionists who have deserted their posts and their duty, and whose places have been filled by others who are carrying on the business of the country, to be allowed to say, “Put these men out. “We are ready to come back now”? “Would it be fair, either to the community or to those who have come to its aid, to accede to such a request? My honorable friend cares nothing for the welfare of the community in this matter. For the past five weeks the country has been throttled, and not one voice from his party has been raised in protest, not a single action taken by any of them to aid it. He said something about the application of a regulation to the Australian Workers Union. He declares that I issued a regulation with the intention of directing it against that body. I emphatically deny and bitterly resent the assertion. The motive actuating the Government in issuing this regulation was the very opposite of that suggested by the honorable member. We desired to strengthen the hands of the Australian Workers Union executive, and assist it to keep its members at work. Had the other unions acted as the Australian Workers Union has, we should not have had this trouble. That union is a pattern for the unions of Australia. It was bound by an agreement and an award, and it has loyally observed both. I wish that I could say that for the unions with which I have been connected. To the officials and executive of the Australian Workers Union the people of this country owe a debt of gratitude. They have saved it from being plunged into a veritable inferno. I have struck a blow for discipline, and in support of the executive of the Australian Workers Union, by threatening with the keen edge of the law a number of Industrial Workers of the World in the back parts of Queensland, who were trying to drag out on strike members of that union, whether they would or would not. In Queensland, where they are shearing at the present time, the members of the Australian Workers Union - the real working men, not the talkers - would, if a poll were taken, declare that they are glad of what the Government have done. The honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley) said that the Industrial Workers of the World were playing the game of the employer. Well, I have stopped them from playing that game, and, I hope, any other to the detriment of the country. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Tudor) said that the regulations were not intended to be applied to civil conditions. I do not understand the distinction that he would draw. They were intended to be applied to the circumstances created by the war, and to all matters arising out of the war. The honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Anstey), when on this side, opposed the War Precautions Act provisions even more vindictively than he has since done on the other side. He said then -that they ran the whole gamut of power. Did he not anticipate what the High Court has since declared - that they cover the whole sphere of law ? Well, here is a grave civil dispute, in effect a revolt against law, an attempt to prevent the country from carrying on all operations necessary for its protection against the enemy and for its industrial- and general welfare, and he says we stand aside and do nothing. One would ‘imagine that the regulations had been turned against the unions and that we were beating them with rods. What are the facts? Although great power has been vested in the Government under the War Precautions Act, I defy any one to say that we have abused that power. My honorable friend said that we have not turned if against the employer. But the truth’ is that it has been used against the employer much more harshly than against the employee. We have used it to fix prices, to commandeer products, and to prevent employers from doing many things we conceived to be inimical to the State. All I have done in regard to employees has been to cancel the preference clauses in the awards of unions that were still recalcitrant after the strike had lasted five or six weeks. It was only yesterday that the preference of the

Burnie and Devonport branches was cancelled. A week ago the waterside workers enjoyed preference in all the ports of Australia. The law gave them this, and by their agreements with their employers they were bound to supply all necessary labour. They have refused without cause to do so. By what right then do they still claim to enjoy that privilege which by their own unprovoked action they have doubly forfeited. We have no reason to apologize for our actions in this matter. Rather may we invite the attention of the public to the fact that we have maintained a firm and proper stand against the attempt to wrest the reins of government from our hands. I am certain that the community is glad that we have done this, and tens of thousands of workers to-day are glad that we are in office. Many of the men who were brought out on strike are wishing to God that they could get back. My honorable friend said that he had done nothing to fan the strike. . Nor have 1. I have been connected with too many strikes to try to fan discontent; strikes need not to be fanned, but to have the hose played on them. The men who are on strike must pay the penalty for what they have done, though, after all, it is not a very heavy one. They cannot throw the community into turmoil and escape scot-free. They have deserted their posts, and others have taken up their work. Those who have thus served the community ought to, and shall, be protected.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

.- The attitude of the honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. Hughes) is one of the most pathetic that could be conceived. He claims that he made an application to the Court for the deregistration of his old union, the Waterside Workers’- Federation, so that the ordinary processes of justice might be relied on to do what, under a regulation, he could have done without such an application. If the right honorable gentleman had the Court available, why did he frame the regulation ? As a matter of fact, the regulation wa3 framed to enable him to deregister the union. He is now the champion union smasher. He knew that he had the power to go to the Court, and apply for deregistration, but he preferred to transparently threaten the Court with this regulation as with a bludgeon. No self-respecting Judge could have adopted an attitude other than that of Mr. Justice Higgins, who said, “ The Prime Minister asks me to deregister a union although he has power under regulation to do it himself. Am I to conclude that if I refuse, on the evidence presented, to grant deregistration, he will deregister the union by virtue of the power given him by the regulation?”

Undoubtedly, the Prime Minister is a star actor. He would have cut a successful figure on the stage. I have seen him, trembling with emotion, the tears rolling down his face, declare that if he’ could not stand in with the Labour movement he would go out of public life altogether. Yet to-day he is using his abilities to play the game of tiie employers and of the enemies of Labour. Those who have opposed Labour all their lives, and wish to destroy unionism, and the power of Labour in combination, sit behindthe right honorable member with satisfaction. ‘There is a smile on their ‘countenances because they know that he is playing their game better than they could play it.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– “ There is more joy in Heaven.”

Mr J H CATTS:

– The honorable member is a typical representative of the Employers Federation. There is more joy among the Liberals over the capture of the Prime Minister than there is in Heaven over the return of the sinner.

The Prime Minister spoke of the prerogative of the Governor-General to pass regulations. Mr. Justice Higgins, he says, acts improperly in criticising an act of the Governor-General. That was absolute hypocrisy. It is not the GovernorGeneral - not even the party -opposite - but this dictator, the Prime Minister, who frames these regulations.’ This country is being ruled by a dictator. He moves a little clique, which, in turn, influences the party opposite, and it, being in the majority, governs the Parliament.

There is no vestige of responsible government in Australia to-day. We have instead government by regulation. The War Precautions Act, which was designed to deal with conditions arising out of the state of war, isnow being used to destroy legislation on our statute-books which was passed in the ordinary way. The Conciliation and Arbitration Act makes provision for the cancellation of the registration of unions. As the Prime Minister has stated, under that Act, if a union disobeys the law, any interested person may make application to the Court for its deregistration. Such an application would involve an appeal to a Court of Justice, the taking of evidence, and something like a reasonable inquiry. The- Prime Minister;, however, comes .along with his bludgeon in the shape of this regulation, under the War Precautions Act, and proposes that, a union may be deregistered without any inquiry by a Court of Justice. On the mere ipse dixit of this dictator, a union may be struck off the register.

The right honorable gentleman has spoken of the sins of the men on strike. He has said that they should no longer’ enjoy preference of employment, and that the Government should, stand by the “loyalists.” I have heard him in a Strike Conference say to men who protested against returning to work with these so-called “loyalists,” “Do not talk such buncombe to me. You know perfectly well ‘that it would be easier to find the cross of Christ at the bottom of hell than it will be to find a non-unionist in your industry after you have been back a week. Go back to your work, and get rid of these non-unionists when you go back.” That is what he has told the unionists time after time. “ Drop bricks on their heads, destroy their ‘tucker bags, tear up their clothes.” These tactics have been employed, and the Prime Minister has been a party to them.

Sir John Forrest:

– He has never said’ that.

Mr J H CATTS:

– He has been a party to the whole of -that sort of thing. The Treasurer knows nothing about the tactics of the Prime Minister as a strike leader. When unionists have protested against having to return to work with blacklegs, he has been a party to “ dealing” with the so-called loyalists. The conditions were much the same as they are to-day. The New Zealand Government was- organizing strike-breaking bureaux, as the Prime Minister is now doing. They were defending blacklegs, as the ‘ Prime Minister is now doing. To-day, however, we have seen him on the floor of this’ House, trembling with emotion as he championed the cause of the employers. He has gone over to the Employers Federation - to the enemies of labour - and is now the champion of everything which during the greater part of his- lifetime he has most vigorously opposed.

The Prime Minister also told us this afternoon that these regulations under the War Precautions Act had been put in operation against the employers. “ Why,” said he, “ I have done much more against the. producers than the working man.” In this respect he sang quite a different tune from that which he has been singing ever since the war began. He has been saying, again and again, to the employers that but for the action of the Government in creating pools to deal with their produce, they would have lost everything; and that by reason of his actions the producers have secured benefits which they could not have obtained in any other way. To-day his story is quite the opposite; he asserts that these regulations have been put in operation against the employers of labour.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Was not the honorable member himself Chairman of a Food Prices Board for a time ?

Mr J H CATTS:

– I was, until the Prime Minister came back from England and destroyed the- work of the Board. After having mercilessly denounced those responsible for the high cost of living in his referenda pamphlets, he is now the champion of the exploiters of this country, and refuses to protect the people against the outrageously high prices that prevail.

This regulation, which deals with the dispute. in the shearing industry, and with the wharf labourers’ dispute, attacks one of the vital principles of British liberty - a principle which, so far as I know, has never before been denied in any part of the British Empire. It attacks the right of peaceful picketing. It has always been the right of a British working man in the case of an industrial dispute to approach a fellow workman, and to inform him of the existence of the dispute, so that he may not accept employment in ignorance of it. This regulation, however, has been introduced to stop even peaceful picketing, and we have seen a unionist haled before the Court on a charge of informing a blackleg carter of the existence qf an industrial dispute.

Even this does not complete the work of the dictatorship. The Acts Interpretation Act provides that every regulation shall be presented to Parliament within thirty days of its gazettal, and that within fifteen sitting days of its issue either House of Parliament, may disallow it.

Mr WALLACE:

– That is their business, just as the men represented by the honorable member consider it their business to increase prices to the extent of 20 per cent, or 30 per cent, without consulting the consumers. If the supporters of the Ministry desire government on equitable lines, it is for them to show the way. The de-registration of unions in this way will probably mean that the 40,000 men in my union who are still at work will come out. In that event, other industrial organizations, such as the Australian Workers Union and other big unions, which have no part in the present trouble, will be drawn into it. It is not the duty of the Government to precipitate trouble and cause revolution, but rather, by every pacific means, to suppress the prevailing unrest.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– This speech would be good enough in a union club room. “ ut is of no use here.

Mr WALLACE:

– I am merely giving honorable members a warning. They do not know much about industrial ethics, and it is time they learned something of them. It would be infinitely more to the credit and prestige of the Government if they showed themselves true to their professions, and did all that was possible to win the war and preserve industrial peace and equity in the community - if they showed that they could conduct the affairs of the country far better than, in their opinion, they could be conducted by the Labour party. My advice to honorable members opposite is that they should exercise what influence they have over the Ministry to have these regulations rescinded, and to show that the Government are prepared to meet the workers in a proper way. No good can result from putting into effect regulations of this kind, and it would be in the best interests of the community if the Government were to reconsider their position. In . yesterday’s Herald there was an article which dealt with the Seamen’s Union, and it affords us an example in point. The employers told the -Court that in the Seamen’s Union there is no preference to unionists; and, as bey . never have had such preference, the deregistration does not affect them. The Prime Minister knows that in the Seanienls Union, as in other big organizations, the members regulate this matter for themselves. If the Government are determined to pursue their present course we shall have another 200,000 or 300,000 persons added to the 100,000 or 150,000 already involved in the industrial disputes. That is a condition of affairs that no one desires to see; and I repeat that it is the duty of the Government to rescind the regulations.

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

– Australia, to-day is a country governed by . regulations, whichare turned out like sausages, not in dozens or fifties, but in hundreds. Pages 822 to 833 of the index to the Commonwealth Statutory Rules for 1916- contain over 200 regulations. Whenever any Bill pertaining to defence or war precautions has been introduced, I have always insisted on art assurance that the civil law shall not be dominated by the military law. That assurance I always received from Mr. Andrew Fisher when he was Prime Minister; and on the first occasion when I had a public quarrel with the present Prime Minister, I asked for a similar guarantee, without which I was not prepared to allow any clause of the Bill then before us- to pass. On that occasion the Prime Minister, who was Attorney-General, became angered at the delay caused, as he thought, by the debate, and asked me why I could not take his word as the AttorneyGeneral and the Minister in charge of the measure. I answered him that I could not take his word because he had come and lied, tricked, and’ deceived us at the Trades Hall Council. Thereupon the right honorable gentleman rushed out of the chamber, and brought, in Mr. Fisher, who immediately gave me the assurance I desired. But I unhesitatingly state here, as I have from every platform, that all the promises and assurances given by Mr. Fisher in this regard have since his departure been wilfully broken, because there is not £ single regulation under the War Precautions Act that does not override the civil law to-day. When I asked the present Prime Minister under what law three persons, two of whom were women, had been arrested and punished, he said that it was under both the State law and the Commonwealth law. The Commonwealth law, of course, consisted of one of these War Precautions Regulations; and that case only proves what I have said, namely j that Australia to-day is governed by regulation, and by a, man who is. dictator by the kindness of the great Liberal party which supports him. In my opinion, no regulation should become law until it has been read out in this Chamber, and honorable members afforded the right to debate it. If honorable members do not wish to debate any regulation, and the consensus of opinion in the House is in its favour, the people outside will know that it is a fair and just one. But what do we find at the present time? In 1916 alone there were some 200 regulations issued, and some of them of such importance that if they were introduced as ordinary legislation they would entail days of discussion. When it was suggested that the Act and the regulations had been used towards one class only, the Pirime Minister asked whether any one could deny that he had used the law against the employers in the way of fixing prices. Was there ever a greater force than this fixing of prices? How do the’ people outside know what ‘the fixed prices are? When I suggested that a simple printed announcement of the fixed prices of bread, sugar, meat, flour, and so forth should be placed in every post-office, along with the name and address of a Commonwealth officer to whom appeal could be made in case of any overcharging, all the reply the Prime Minister could give ‘ me was a reference to the Commonwealth Gazette. I know no person, either inside this House or outside, who knows the fixed prices of food; but I do know that the law is continually broken, and if this is by a wealthy man nothing is clone to him. Can anything be more infamous than the supplying of diseased meat, such as occurred in Melbourne? But my reference to that matter only excited the jeers and laughter of honorable members opposite. The abat toirs belong to the Melbourne ‘City Council, and I accuse the Department of trying to shield Mr. Angliss.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon W Elliot Johnson:

– I am afraid that the honorable member i3 travelling away from the question of the regulations.

Dr MALONEY:

– I am now referring to one of those employers whose prices have not yet been fixed; and there has been much arrant hypocrisy displayed in this connexion. What was the Prime Minister’s reply when I brought the question of high rents under his notice? He said he could quite understand that, if a man had a house worth £500, and spent another £500 in doing that house up, he should have an increased rental. That is quite right; but who ever heard of any landlord such a fool as to spend an amount of money equal to the value of the house in improvements, especially in the case of a house let to working people ? Nothing has yet been done in the way of protecting the people from the high rents that are being charged. But the greatest infamy of which I accuse the Prime Minister is the introduction by regulation of the moratorium, in order to screen himself from Mr. Smith, and to keep that gentleman from going into Court to get justice. That case was postponed by Mr. Justice Hodges from the 18th October to the’ 20th ; then, at the instance of the Prime Minister’s counsel, it was further postponed until 1st February. But in January the moratorium regulation was issued, and Mr. Smith was called upon to prove that the Prime Minister of Australia had enough ready cash to meet the debt. The result was that justice was denied to this gentleman.

Mr Poynton:

– What has that case to do with the regulation under discussion ?

Mr SPEAKER:

– The motion does not refer to any specific regulation.

Dr MALONEY:

– I am informed that the legal men who were representing the Prime Minister are not content with the instructions given, and that the case has been settled, the Prime Minister to pay £500 of the £1,000 owing, and to agree in the future to take no advantage of the present moratorium, or any other moratorium under the War Precautions Act.

This country is really ruled by a dictator, and I feel certain that the men who are now supporting him in his efforts to crush the workers will regret their action.

This Parliament will become known as a Parliament that was ruled by a dictator supported by the remnants of the Conservative party £.nd a portion of the Labour party, who have forgotten their pledges as Labour men.

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

.- I congratulate the Government on the issue of these important regulations at this very critical time in our history. The welfare of the public has been seriously endangered by the organized unions. I believe that the great majority of the members of these unions are truly loyal to the best interests of the community, but they seem to have practically got under the control of a dangerous section. The result is that we have witnessed the spectacle of union after union downing tools and refusing to work, thus causing enormous losses and general public inconvenience. Nor do they stop short at jeopardizing the welfare of the people of Australia, for they actually menace the brave men who have gone abroad to fight our battles. The transport of war material and those things which are necessary for the sustenance and welfare of our troops is being ruthlessly interfered with. .The Government came into power as a Win-the-war Government. We hear frequently from honorable members opposite the question, “ What are von doing to win the war?” For one thing, Ministers have set themselves up against the lawless element in this community; they have taken a step which renders it less likely that unionists will enter the present industrial conflict lightly, because the members of trade unions will know that in the issue of these regulations there is a certain element of danger to unionism^ and this fact will make them careful. If anything will help to win the war it is the creation of such a position as to make it dangerous for those who seek to act against the welfare of Australia, as a whole, to play that game. I am perfectly satisfied that the Government and the party behind them have the indorsement of the great mass of the people of Australia in regard to the issue of these regulations. When we are at death grips with the enemy of the Empire at the other side of the world, it is simply suicidal to allow conditions to exist that will permit one section of the community to set the whole system of organized go- vernment at defiance, and claim that they, and not the elected representatives of the people, are to govern the country. Last week the honorable member for Barrier (Mr. Considine) told us plainly that organized unionists were determined to win the present fight without reference to this Parliament. No more damaging statement could have been made. For centuries we have been building up a system of constitutional govern1 ment, and we pride ourselves upon the fact that every person who has to obey our laws has had a voice in the making of them, but our friends opposite want to bring about a condition of affairs by which a comparatively small section of the community will determine the conditions of labour and compel the ostensible Government of the country to bow to their will. I applaud the Prime Minister upon his utterance this afternoon, when he pointed out that the labour unions were setting themselves against the constituted authority of this land. I believe they are being driven into that position! not by the bond fide members of the organizations, but by the incantations of a dangerous foreign section to which the others have lent an ear. The issue of these regulations will bring the members of the unions back to their senses. When they realize that they are setting themselves against the welfare of the community, and against the welfare of our soldiers on the other side of the world, and that power rests with the Government, and not with their organizations, they will yield to pressure.

– I am speaking of what I see all about me. I know perfectly well that nothing will give <he honorable member greater pleasure than that regulation 213 should achieve its object. Had the Australian Workers Union been de-registered, the award nullified, and sufficient scabs procured, the pastoralists would have saved £4,000,000 per annum. How many men could be bought with that amount on the slight chance of the pastoralists being successful in their desire to smash the unions? The trade unionists of Australia do not require the protection of bae Prime Minister and the National party. We are not afraid of what the National Government may do to the working classes. They may take preference from the unions, de-register them, and prohibit them ,as unlawful associations, and they may put their members in gaol, but those actions will not achieve the Government’s purpose. We shall establish preference to unionists despite all that the

Government may do by regulation.’ The Prime Minister may violently wave his hands, and issue regulations in sheaves, but we take no notice of him; in our strength and might we can defy him and his supporters.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Where do the majority of the non-unionists get their living ?

Mr BLAKELEY:

– Where do the honorable member and his> class get their living ‘I The means of livelihood is produced by the unionists and stolen by the class to which the honorable member belongs. As the Prime Minister hd* pointed out, the Australian Workers Union has been one of the unions in Australia which has never broken any agreement into which it entered. It h,as been honorably bound by every award delivered by a Court; but upon the flimsy pretext that somewhere in the back country of Queensland the Industrial Workers of the World propose tq hold up the shearing industry, the Prime Minister has issued an ultimatum, full of threats and intimidation, which was sufficient to make any unionist go on strike. Instead of improving the situation, the Prime Minister’s action was likely to create a trouble even bigger than that which exists to-day. But despite the regulation issued by the right honorable gentleman, the Australian Workers Union continues working. Of course, the £4,000,000 that would be saved to the squatters by the de-registration of the union and the annulment of the award, is a prize worth fighting for.

Mr HEITMANN:
Kalgoorlie

– After listening to the honorable member who has just resumed his seat, it seems to me that the unions in whose behalf the Leader of the Opposition has spoken can have very little concern in his protest, because they are likely to lose very little -which they value. As a unionist and a believer in unionism, I must confess that it is impossible for this country to continue the pretext th,at we believe in arbitration.

Mr Blakeley:

– Does the honorable member believe in organized scabbery ?

Mr HEITMANN:

– I do not. Nor do 1 believe in the scabbing on soldiers at the Front, which is being upheld in Australia to-day by many Labour leaders.

Mr Riley:

– Why does not the honorable member get into khaki ?

Mr HEITMANN:

– I have tried hard enough to do so. I am amused to hear the everlasting sneers from honorable members opposite at the Win-the-war party. Had the party now led by the honorable member for Yarra attained to power at the last elections, we should have to-day, not responsible government, but revolution. What the Nationalist party has not done to win the war is to pass in its organizations, week in and week out, resolutions against sending soldiers to assist those already at the Front.

Debate interrupted under standing order 119.

page 2030

QUESTION

HISTORICAL RECORDS OF AUSTRALIA

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

What has been the cost, so far, of com piling, publishing, and distributing the work known as the Historical Records of Australia?
Is it intended to continue its publication, and, if so, has any estimate been made as to the cost of bringing it up to any specified year ?
Is there a subscribers’ list; if so, for what number of copies, and at what cost per volume ?
How many free copies are being distributed ?
Will ex-members of Parliament continue upon the free list?
Will new members of Parliament receive back numbers?

Mr SPEAKER:

– As this refers to a matter under the control of the Library Committee, and not the Treasurer, I, as Chairman of that Committee, ‘have had a statement prepared on the subject, which will furnish the information desired by the honorable member for Echuca. The statement is as follows: -

The total cost, from 1912 to 30th June last, is £8,664 6s. There has already been paid since then £210, and a further sum of approximately £1,000 is outstanding for the completion of volumes 10 and 11, making a total of about £9,800. Against this, valuable stocks are held, for which the Library Committee anticipate on increased future demand.
Publication will be suspended when volume JJ, now in the printers’ hands, is issued. The reason that nctuated the Library Committee in taking this course was mainly the increased cost of paper, which enhanced the cost of publication by 3s. 7d. per volume. A further reason was that the responsible editor has volunteered for active service. There will probably be about thirty more volumes) before completion, whose publication will be spread over about seven or eight years, costing, at pre-war prices, about £2,200 per annum.
There is no subscribers’ list, as the Library Committee does not sell directly to the public, but supplies the book trade. About forty-five bound copies are so supplied at a charge of 15s. per volume, and eleven unbound at 12s. per volume. *
Free copies are issued to all members of either House who desire them, to all Public Libraries of the capital cities of the Commonwealth, and to the Parliamentary and University Libraries of the States, to the British Museum, the Library of the House of Lords and House of Commons, the Library of Congress, and on an exchange basis to several Universities and Libraries in the United Kingdom and America. 5 and 6. Ex-members and new members may, by a special resolution of the Library Committee, complete their sets at cost price, i.e., 12s. 6d. per volume. They have been so informed.

page 2030

QUESTION

EXPORTS TO DUTCH EAST INDIES

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notipe -

Does the Government take cognizance of’ the ultimate destination of Australian foodstuffs shipped from the Commonwealth to theDutch East Indies?
If not, will inquiries be instituted to ascertain if any considerable portion of our produce is being re-shipped from there to Holland ?
Is it possible to ascertain (a) if Holland’s need for condensed milk from overseas is because her own production of this commodity is being exported to Germany, and (b) if Australia, through the medium of the Dutch East Indies, is supplying the shortage thus created in Holland ?

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · BASS, TASMANIA · NAT

– The answers to the ; honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

The exportation of wheat and flour to the Dutch East Indies is not allowed, except, under special arrangements, which prevent its re-exportation from there. With regard to all foodstuffs, exportation to Java is allowed only to approved consignees. The exportation of foodstuffs generally to the Dutch East Indies has been normal since the war as comparedwith before the war. In lines where an increase is shown, that increase is accounted for by the cutting off of direct steamer servicebetween Java and Holland.
For reasons stated in 1 it is practically impossible that such re-shipment can take place. 3. (a) I have no evidence that Holland is in. need of condensed milk from overseas; (b) see 1 and 2.

page 2030

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH STEAM-SHIPS

Mr STORY:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

asked the Prime Minister,. upon notice -

Have the Commonwealth steam-ships yet. been placed under the control of the Department of the Prime Minister?
Is it intended to appoint marine superintendents; and, if not, why?
Who is responsible at present for the purchase and supply of stores and equipment for the Commonwealth steam-ships?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

Yes. They always have been under the control of that Department.
Captain John McGregor was appointed Marine Superintendent in August, 1916?
The Prime Minister’s Department.

page 2031

QUESTION

DUTY ON FILMS

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister for

Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Will the Minister furnish a return of the amount of revenue received from duty on films from 4th December, 1914, to the’ date of the reduction of the said duty 1
Also, will he state the names of the members of a deputation that interviewed him, asking for a reduction of d.uty on films?
Will the Minister state if the Treasurer was made aware of the reduction of the duty before it was declared ?

Mr JENSEN:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

The amount for the period 4th December, 1914, to 30th June, 1917, is £211,233. 2.Messrs. Musgrove and Gibson.
Yes.

page 2031

QUESTION

INDUSTRIAL CRISIS IN NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Is it a fact a conference was held between Mr. Holme, representing the Government of New South Wales, and representatives of the railway and tramway workers, at which proposals were agreed to, providing for the men to report for work at 7.30 a.m. on Tuesday last, the Commissioners to utilize their services as required T
Also, is it a fact that when the men presented themselves they were requested to sign a card containing a number of questions, which they refused to do, alleging as a reason that it was a distinct breach of the proposals agreed upon ?
If so, in view of this, will the Prime Minister exercise his influence with the State Government to honour the proposals agreed to at the conference, and thus enable work to be resumed ?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are, as follow : -

I do not know.
I cannot say.
See No. 1.

Mr WEST:
for Mr. Mahony

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

Is it a fact that twenty-five of the men called “ loyalists,” who were employed by the Government at the Naval Dockyards, Cockatoo

Island, Sydney, went on strike after having been working for about three hours?

If so, is the Minister prepared to give any information concerning this matter?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
NAT

– The General Manager, Cockatoo Island, Sydney, states he has no knowledge of any such occurrence.

Mr J H CATTS:
for Mr. Finlayson

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the Commonwealth Government wa? prepared to give favorable consideration to a suggestion that the prisoners in the internment camps should be utilized in place of the unionists on strike?

Mr HUGHES:

– No such suggestion has ever been made.

page 2031

QUESTION

LAND FOR REPATRIATION

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Seeing, that the Federal Government are providing a considerable sum of money for the purchase of land for the settlement of returned soldiers, have they any control over the pur’ chase of land for such settlement?
Is the purchase of estates to he left solely in the hands of the various State Governments?
What amount of moneyhas already been advanced to the States forland . purchase?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

The Federal Government is not finding the money for thepurchase of the land.
Yes. The States are providing the money.
See No. I.

page 2031

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN TRADE WITH AMERICA

Mr BAYLEY:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether, in view of the fact that the imports into thu United States of America from Australia for 1917 show a decrease of £900,000 in value, as compared with those for 1914, the Government has further considered the advisability of appointing a commercial representative to the United States of America?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– The Government have already decided to appoint representatives in the United States of America and in other countries.

page 2031

QUESTION

NAVAL DOCKYARDS

Reinstatement of Employee : Smoking and Use of Intoxicating Liquors

Mr J H CATTS:
for Mr. Mahony

asked the Minister for the ‘Navy, upon notice -

Is it a fact that an ex-employee in the rigging department of the Naval Dockyards,

Garden Island, Sydney, who was discharged about a month ago for stealing, is now again, employed by the Government?

If so, will the Minister state the reason for re-employing this man?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

The man was not discharged for stealing. The facts are that the general manager suspected the man of petty larceny, and decided to stand him off for a time.
The general manager states he was reemployed owing to his previous long service and to his work ibeing of a very good standard.

Mr. J. H. CATTS (for Mr. Mahony) asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the regulations strictly forbid smoking and the taking of intoxicating liquor into the Government Naval Dockyards?
Will the Minister say whether free beer has been supplied to employees at the Naval Dockyards, Cockatoo Island, Sydney, during the last month, and, if so, by whose authority; and, also, by whose permission the men were allowed to indulge in smokingin the yards?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

Yes, except that ‘smoking is not forbidden in the silent hours.
No free beer has been supplied, and the regulations as to smoking have not been relaxed.

page 2032

QUESTION

STAFFING OF GOVERNMENT. COAL MINE

Mr J H CATTS:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether an advertisement was inserted by the National Service Bureau, on behalf of the Commonwealth Government, in the Melbourne Herald of the 12th instant, to provide labour to “ staff a mine at Maitland, New South Wales to obtain coal for the State of Victoria,” and setting out the kind of labour required, probable earnings, and other particulars?
If so - (a) in which Minister’s Department is this matter being administered; (b) from what vote are the necessary funds being provided; (c) under what Act or regulation is this matter being authorized?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

Yes. 2. (a) The Prime Minister’s Department;
1. Authority to spend £500 has beer authorized out of the Treasurer’s Advance Account. The ultimate allocation of the expenditure as be- tween the Commonwealth and the State has not yet been determined;
2. No statutory powers are involved in the matter.

page 2032

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE : FORTNIGHTLY PAYMENTS

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

Has he yet arranged for the regular fortnightly payment of the Public Service?
If not, can he. say when he will honour the promise made last year in this regard?’

Sir JOHN FORREST:
NAT

– The arrangements for making fortnightly payments of salaries are now so . far advanced that it is expected that the altered system will come into operation within the next two or three months.

page 2032

QUESTION

WATTLE BARK INDUSTRY

Mr J H CATTS:

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Will the Minister invite his Government to consider the advisability of encouraging the industry of growing wattle bark and producing extracts of wattle, by adopting the bonus recommendation of the Inter-State Commission, or by other means?

Mr JENSEN:
NAT

– The Inter-State Commission recommended a bonus of £1 per ton on locally-grown wattle bark used in Australia for tanning, but the recommendation does not provide for an import duty in addition to the bonus. Under the 1914 Tariff proposals, the industry is protected to the extent of £1 10s. per ton on all bark imported into Australia. The question of further encouraging the industry will receive consideration.

page 2032

QUESTION

IMPERIAL WAR SERVICE MEDALS

Mr J H CATTS:
for Mr. Finlayson

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Whether in the distribution of Imperial War Service medals any distinction is made between those who have served overseas and those who have been retained in Australia for home service?
If all who have enlisted in the Australian Imperial Force are entitled to this medal, why is it being refused to those men who were sent to German New Guinea?-
Will the medal also be available forImperial reservists who were called up in Australia?
If it be necessary, will the Minister make such recommendations to the Imperial Government as will allow the Imperial War Service medal to be made available to all men who were accepted for service?

Mr GROOM:
Honorary Minister · DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

Nothing is known of the issue of an Imperial War Service medal, but it is presumed that the honorable member means the Silver War badge issued by His Majesty the King to soldiers who have been discharged as medically unfit for further service by reason of wounds or sickness as a result of their military service. War medals are not issued until the war is finished, but to those who have been incapacitated a Silver War badge has been authorized for issue as above mentioned. This Silver War badge is not issuable to Home Service soldiers who enlisted for service in Australia only, but it is granted to those soldiers who enlisted for service in the Australian Imperial Force and the Forces raised for service in New Guinea who may not have left Australia, but who have become incapacitated as a result of their training in Australia for service abroad, provided that such soldiers have been in the Service for over six months.
This badge is granted to men who served in the New Guinea Forces, provided that they have been discharged as medically unfit for further military service by reason of wounds or sickness.
Not unless the Reservists concerned . have joined either the Australian Imperial Force or the New Guinea Force, and have become unfit for further service by reason of wounds or sickness.
The Silver War badge is issued to soldiers discharged as medically unfit, as above mentioned, and to be worn with civilian clothes. The regulations regarding its issue are prescribed by the War Office, and it is not proposed to ask for any alterations to be made. The value of thiB war badge would decrease if all soldiers who have been in camp, and arc shortly afterwards found to be medically unfit, are given the badge. Such men are provided with the “ Unfit for Military Service “ badge.

page 2033

QUESTION

COST OF LIVING INQUIRY

Mr J H CATTS:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Has the Inter-State Commission been asked to report on the “high cost of living” in any definite time?
Does the Government propose to allow the House to go into recess before the question of the high cost of living has been “dealt with?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

Not yet.
It is hoped that an interim report will shortly be received.

page 2033

QUESTION

ELIGIBLES EMPLOYED IN SMALL ARMS FACTORY

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Is the statement correct that hundreds of eligible mcn of military age are employed by the Defence Department in the Small Arms Factory, Lithgow, carrying out work that could well lie done by returned soldiers, many of whom are at present unemployed?

Mr GROOM:
NAT

– There are men employed at the Small Arms Factory apparently eligible for active service and not debarred by the Department from enlisting, and instructions have been issued that, in future, only returned soldiers, rejected volunteers, and persons outside military age are to be taken on. Employment will be found at the Small Arms Factory for any returned soldier offering himself who is considered suitable.

page 2033

QUESTION

STATE PENSIONS FOR SOLDIERS

Mr J H CATTS:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the New South Wales Government promised at the recent elections in that State that upon its re-election it would pay State pensions to returned wounded soldiers enlisting in that State, in addition to Federal pensions, sufficient to bring the total pensions up to the standard living wage?
If so has the Commonwealth Government made any” representations to the State Government with a view to discouraging the State Government from taking the action referred to?

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

I believe so.
The Acting Premier of New South Wales informed me, on the 30th July last, that his Government proposed to supplement the pensions of soldiers totally incapacitated by an amount of 10s. per week, so as to bring the total payment up to £2 per week, and that a sum of £30,000 had been placed on the draft Estimates for the purpose. On the 13th ultimo, a further communication was received, intimating that, in view of the proposal that the Repatriation Authority should in certain cases pay an additional sum of 10s. per week, the New South Wales Government had dropped its proposal and removed the amount referred to from the Estimates.

page 2033

QUESTION

CONSCRIPTION REFERENDUM: SOLDIERS’ VOTES

Mr BRENNAN:

asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

In view of the fact that observations were made last week by the Vice-President of tha

Executive Council alleging inaccurate statements concerning the soldiers’ vote on the conscription referendum, will the Prime Minister place on the table of the House all communications (or vouched copies thereof) to and from responsible persons overseas relating thereto from the time the first ballot was taken till the date of the publication of the result by the Chief Electoral Officer?

Mr GLYNN:
NAT

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows: -

If the question refers to communications relating to “ inaccurate statements,” the answer is that no such communications have been received by, or sent to, responsible persons. If the reference is to the communications to and from responsible persons relating to the soldiers’ vote on the conscription referendum, the answer is - It is undesirable to table the correspondence. Such could not be done without disclosing the results of the voting in detail, which disclosure would not be consistent with the letter or spirit of the Act and regulations. The general position is as follows: -

No correspondence passed between the responsible persons, viz., The Chief Electoral Officer for the Commonwealth and the several Returning Officers, dealing with the votes of the Forces on the conscription referendum, except in regard to the conduct of the scrutiny in the presence of responsible witnesses, and the transmission, checking, and verification of the figures which the Returning Officers were required by paragraph 18 of the Referendum (Special Voting) Regulations 1916 to furnish to the Chief Electoral Officer.

The total vote in favour and not in favour is set forth in the following statement: -

Commonwealth of Australia.

Military Service Referendum Act 1916.

Referendum, 28th October, 1916.

Votes recorded under the Referendum (Special Voting) Regulations 1916 by -

Members of the Forces employed on active service outside Australia, London centre.

Members of the Forces employed on active service outside Australia, Rabaul centre.

Returned members of the Forces not enrolled as doctors of the Commonwealth.

Note. - (a) and (b) include men employed on ships of war.

The Returning Officers responsible for the scrutiny and counting of the votes of members of the Forces on the conscription referendum taken on the 28th October, 1916, were as follow: -

London.- Brigadier-General R. McC. Anderson.

Rabaul. - Brigadier-General S. A. Pethebridge.

New South Wales - Mr. J. G. McLaren, Commonwealth Electoral Officer for New South Wales.

Victoria. - Mr. R. H. Lawson, Commonwealth Electoral Officer for Victoria.

Queensland. - Mr. R. H. Allars, Commonwealth Electoral Officer for Queensland.

South Australia. - Mr. O. H. Stephens, Commonwealth Electoral Officer for South Australia.

Western Australia. - Mr. J. E. Cathie, Commonwealth Electoral Officer for Western Australia.

Tasmania. - Mr. S. Irwin, Commonwealth Electoral Officer for Tasmania.

The civilian witnesses selected by BrigadierGeneral Anderson who were present at the scrutiny in London, and who certified as to the accuracy of the count, were -

New South Wales. - Mr.O. C. Beale.

Victoria. - Mr. T. Baker.

New South Wales.- Mr. D. P. Dickson.

South Australia. - Mr. B. Moulden.

Queensland. - Mr. J. A. Robertson.

Victoria.- The Hon. R. B. Rees.

page 2034

QUESTION

PEACE TERMS

Mr J H CATTS:

asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Has the Government informed the Imperial Authorities that any territory in the Pacific not under the control of the Commonwealth prior to the outbreak of war should be added to Commonwealth Territories ?
Has the Government stated any peace terms for the consideration of the Imperial Authorities on behalf of Australia?
As peace terms have been stated by several of the allied nations, will the Prime Minister inform the House fully of any terms submitted to the Imperial Authorities on behalf of Australia?

Mr.HUGHES.- The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

The present Government have made no representations to the Imperial Government on this matter. Representations were made by the Labour Government, of which Mr. W. M. Hughes was Prime Minister.
No.
None have been submitted.

page 2034

QUESTION

PREFERENCE TO UNIONISTS

Mr BRENNAN:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Has the Minister been in communication with one Leslie G. Ogilvie with regard to preference to unionists?
Did he reply to a letter from Mr. Ogilvie to the effect that when he had received particulars from the other parties to whom Mr. Ogilvie referred he would then be in a position to consider the matter generally, and see what could be done in the direction already indicated by him?
Is the Minister endeavouring to give effect, or has he given effect, to the wishes of Mr. Ogilvie?
Does the Minister propose to abrogate the principle affirmed by regulation, that only those who are contributors to organizations obtaining awards shall have the benefit of such award ?

Mr WEBSTER:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

Yes.
Yes. 3 and 4; These matters are under consideration.

page 2035

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Railway Industrial Dispute in Northern

Queensland - Telegrams between the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth, the Premier of Queensland, and other persons.

The War-

Prisoners’ Camps in Germany - Correspondence respecting the Use of Police Dogs. - (Paper presented to the British Parliament.)

Bounties Act - Return of Particulars for 1916-17 of Persons to whom Bounty Paid, Amount Paid, Goods, &c.

Defence Act - Regulations Amended - Statutory Rules 1917, Nos. 192, 220, 221.

Lands Acquisition Act- Land acquired under, at Blackboy Hill, near Midland Junction, Western Australia - For Defence purposes.

page 2035

SHALE OIL BOUNTY BILL

Message recommending appropriation reported.

Motion (by Mr. Jensen) agreed to -

That he have leave to bring in a Bill for an Act to provide for the payment of a bounty on the production of crude shale oil.

Bill presented, and read a first time.

page 2035

WOOD PULP AND ROCK PHOSPHATE BOUNTIES BILL

Message recommending appropriation reported.

Motion (by Mr. Jensen) agreed to-

That he have leave to bring in a Bill for an Act to amend the Wood Pulp and Rock Phosphate Bounties Act 1912.

Bill presented, and read a first time.

page 2035

PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE BILL

Second Reading

Mr. JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta-

Minister for the Navy) [4.38]. - I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

I do not think there will be much opposition to this- measure. The Public Works Committee Act requires the appointment of the Committee in the first session of every Parliament, and as the Committee was not so appointed, the Bill is necessary to enable it to be appointed now so that it can get to business.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- When the original measure was before us, I was of the opinion that the Committee would not serve any good purpose, but Ithink now that both the Public Works Committee and the Committee of Public Accounts have done good work, and that the best thing the House can do is to pass this Bill to allow the Public Works Committee to be appointed.

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Monaro · Eden

.- The Minister (Mr. Joseph Cook) should have told us why the Committee should be appointed. This is a time for considering the cutting down of expenditure, and I shall record my vote against the Bill, because I feel that retrenchment is needed. I . hold the opinion that the Committee is not required.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– That question is not raised by the introduction of this measure.

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

– The Committee cannot be appointed unless we pass the Bill. The Minister shouldtell us what works it is necessary to refer to the Committee.

Mr Tudor:

– And what the last Committee cost.

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

– Yes. The Government has shut up everything at Canberra, so that things are going to rack and ruin there, and the appointment of a Works Committee at the present time would be like putting a fifth wheel to a coach. We should set an example of economy by refusing to appoint the Committee.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– These will be proper arguments to address to the House when a proposal to appoint a Committee is made.

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

– The Minister assures me that this is the wrong time to take action, but I trust that he will furnish the information for which I have asked. The only effect of appointing the Committee has beenthat certain members have fancied themselves experts because, by the examination of expert witnesses, . they have gained a little knowledge on certain subject’s. Were I spending money on the building of a house, I would rather call in an architect than accept the views of laymen who had gained information in this way.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– No works can be undertaken until the House has been given full information concerning them.

Mr Heitmann:

– What is a job on the Committee worth?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

– In my opinion, it is a reflection on Parliament to propose to appoint a Committee that! is not required, and without a statement concerning the works with which it! is to deal.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

– Section 15 of the Act, which, like this Bill, was initiated by the honorable member for Parramatta, exempts naval and military defence works from the investigation of the Public Works Committee. As most of the works for which we are now making provision, either in the Estimates or in the Loan Bill, are for .Defence purposes, I hope that the Minister will promise that they, shall be .referred to the Committee. His short experience in the Navy Department must have convinced him of the need for such investigation. The honorable member for Eden-Monaro would be the first to object to departmental proposals, especially from- the Army and Navy Departments, if they came before Parliament without having been inquired into. Some defence works were submitted to the last Works Committee, and were under consideration immediately prior to the dissolution of Parliament. I presume that the investigation then proceeding will be continued by the new Committee. I hope, too, that the Act will be amended, so that all works whose cost is, estimated to exceed £25,000, except, of course, such, as are of a secret character, must be referred to the Committee. During the investigation of a proposal for the choosing of a site for the arsenal the last Committee had put. before it a good deal of secret information, and that, of course, was never divulged. But even if the Minister does not propose any amendment of the Act such as I suggest, I hope he will see that all works, whose cost would exceed £25,000 shall be submitted for investigation.

Mr RILEY:
South Sydney

.- The honorable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr. Austin Chapman) is in a humorous mood to-day. The Act provides for the appointment of the Public Works Committee in the first session of every Parliament, and as that was not done in the first session of this Parliament, the Bill is needed to enable .the Committee to be appointed this session. I agree with the honorable member that this is a time for retrenchment, but I would point out to him that the last Works Committee saved the country hundreds of thousands of pounds by recommending that certain proposals referred to it should not be gone on with. The Minister for the Navy saved the country much useless expenditure by introducing the measure which provided for the appointment of the Committee. When public officers know that the Works Committee or the Accounts Committee, will investigate their proposals, they compile their Estimates more carefully than they would compile them for the information of the Minister.

Mr Leckie:

– Did the last Committee investigate the proposal to rebuild the Geraldton Post-office?

Mr RILEY:

– No ; that matter was not referred to it. According to the honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) the construction of the proposed arsenal will, mean an expenditure of £2,250,000. Surely such an expenditure should not be undertaken without an inquiry.

Mr Tudor:

– Have there not been several inquiries into the proposal?

Mr RILEY:

– The inquiries that have taken place have had to do merely with the location of the site. No expense has yet been incurred in the construction of the Arsenal buildings. We have on the Estimates an item of £45,000 for the erection of a post-office at Perth. I do not know whether that work is now going on, but I think it should have been referred to the Public Works Committee.

Mr Webster:

– The matter was dealt with . before the Committee was appointed.

Mr RILEY:

– No big work should be undertaken until it has been inquired into by the Public Works Committee. That is the practice followed in New South Wales and other States, and I think that our money is well spent on such investigations.

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

.- There are one or two features of the principal Act that call for amendment; and I should like to know whether we shall be afforded an opportunity, in considering this Bill, to submit such amendments. They are of a non-controversial character.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I think not. This Bill is merely intended to make the Act effective, so far as the appointment of a’ Committee this session is concerned.

Mr GREGORY:

– Quite so. The Act provides that no public work exceeding the minimum expenditure for which it provides shall be commenced until the responsible Minister presents to the Parliament the necessary plans and papers, and receives the instruction of the House, whereupon it may be submitted to the Public Works Committee for inquiry. On several occasions while the Parliament was in recess, certain questions were submitted, quite illegally, I think, to the Committee for investigation. It would be wise for the Government to take power to submit to the Committee, while Parliament is in recess, works which they intend to push on, if approved.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon W Elliot Johnson:

– I am afraid that the honorable member is now going outside the scope of the Bill. The principal Act provides for the appointment of the Committee in the first session of the Parliament, and this Bill is merely to rectify the omission to appoint a Committee in the first session of the seventh Parliament.

Mr GREGORY:

– I wrote to the Prime Minister some time ago, suggesting certain amendments of the principal Act which I thought would be advantageous. I then expressed the opinion that the number of members might well be reduced to seven, at the most; and I also referred to the advisableness of the Government taking power to remit questions to the Committee while Parliament is in recess. - Since I cannot deal with such matters on this Bill, I shall not further occupy the attention of the House.

Mr WEST:
East Sydney

.-I should not have risen but for the remarks made by the honorable member for EdenMonaro (Mr. Austin Chapman) as to the necessity for the appointment of this Committee. We have in this House men who are familiar with building construction, and who should be able to perform valuable service on this Committee, inasmuch as their practical knowledge would enable them to elicit from departmental officers what is actually proposed in the plans and specifications prepared by them for various works. The honorable member knows very well that many public works have been carried out in New South Wales which would have been far more satisfactory had they been inquired into, first of all, by a Public Works Committee. I feel sure that the country will lose nothing by inquiries of this character. I lo.ok forward to the day when the whole of the expenditure of the’ Commonwealth will be more closely scrutinized than it is at present. It is well that . the members of this Parliament should have the fullest information as to the requirements of the people, and as to the character of the public works proposed to be carried outI hope that this will become a National. Parliament in the true sense of the word.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! This dis- ‘ cussion is quite irregular. The Bill is simply to provide for the appointment of a Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works during the second session of the seventh Parliament. The Committee was not appointed in the first session, and this Bill is merely to correct that error. No other amendment of the principal Act is involved.

Mr Page:

– On a point of order, sir, surely honorable members are entitled to give reasons why the principal Act should be amended.

Mr SPEAKER:

– This Bill does not provide for the amendment of the principal Act, except to legalize the appointment of the Public Works Committee in the second, instead of the first, session of this Parliament.

Mr Austin Chapman:

– Are we not entitled, sir, to show that the Committee is not necessary, and that, therefore, this amending Bill is unnecessary?

Mr SPEAKER:

– The principal Act provides for the appointment of the Committee in the first session of the Parliament. That was not done, and this Bill, is simply to rectify the omission. Honorable members will be in order if they confine themselves strictly to the giving of reasons why the Committee should not now be appointed, but the debate is developing into a discussion of the principal Act, and as to whether or not that Act is desirable.

Mr WEST:

– I owe you an apology, sir. When I rose I was looking at something to the effect that the Government had robbed the people of about £70,000-

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order!

Mr WEST:

– I think the Government have taken a step in the right direction in introducing this Bill. It would be well for the Commonwealth if more of our public expenditure were subject to revision by a Parliamentary Committee.

Mr STORY:
Boothby

– I propose to refer very briefly to the point raised by the honorable member for EdenMonaro (Mr. Austin Chapman) as to the necessity for the appointment of this Committee. The honorable member desired to know what the Committee had cost, and what good result had followed upon its work. In order to allay ihis anxiety, and to afford information to the House, I shall quote a few figures. The Committee cannot be appointed until the principal Act is amended. If there is no necessity to appoint it, it is unnecessary to amend the Act. I shall occupy only one minute in satisfying the inquiry madeby the honorable member for Eden-Monaro. The honorable member suggests that the Government would be studying economy if this Bill were not passed.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– These remarks would be perfectly in order on a proposal to appoint a Committee under this Bill, but not on the proposal before us.

Mr STORY:

– I shall not occupy more than two minutes, during which, I am sure, I shall satisfy the honorable member for Eden-Monaro, and possibly prevent honorable members from being led to vote against this measure. During three years the cost of the Public Works Committee was £6,991. 17s. 4d., and during that time they, by their recommendations, saved the country £684,728; that is, the schemes submitted and recommended by the Committee were carried out at a sum less by that amount than the estimates originally submitted. That, I think, is sufficient justification for the appointment of a Public Works Committee at the earliest opportunity, with a view to future savings.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- The honorable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr. Chapman) is to be congratulated on raising this question, seeing that the Govern ment he is supporting is pledged to economy. In season and out of season the Government and their supporters declare that there are no public works to be proceeded with, and if that be so, why is a Public Works Committee necessary ? If the honorable member for EdenMonaro divides the House on the question, I shall support him. I cannot think that the Government are not in earnest when they tell the people of Australia, in this House and through the press, that economy is their policy. Almost every morning we find the Argus . preaching economy; and that newspaper is at the back of the Government, while the Government, later on, is at the back of the newspaper. As I say, the honorable member for Eden-Monaro is to be congratulated on bringing this matter forward, particularly so as he is sitting behind the Government.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- It comes very easily from the honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Page), -who has not to look to a public work for his sustenance, to suggest that it is time to stop all public works. The honorable member for Maranoa cannot have been listening to the honorable member for Boothby (Mr. Story), who has pointed out the great economy that is effected by a body of experts appointed to check public expenditure. For years the honorable member for Maranoa has suggested that people should not take their destinies in their own Hands, but should rely on a Government prepared to carry on public works, and” thus provide employment. The honorable member for Boothby has shown clearly that there is every reason to appoint a Public Works Committee.

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

.- In view of the fact that there can be no public work of any magnitude undertaken for some time, it would be well to postpone the appointment of this Committee, because as soon as a Committee of this kind is appointed it begins to incur expense. Under the Public Works Committee Act, it is necessary that all work to cost over a certain figure shall . be referred- to the Committee from this Parliament for investigation, but in its actual working we have found that the Committee does not wait for any reference, and that is the cause of a great deal of trouble. Under the circumstances it would be just as well to defer the appointment of the Committee.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- 1 congratulate the Government ou the introduction of this Bill, because any Ministry pledged to a policy of economy must take some step of the kind in order to obviate1 extravagance. In the various States it has been proved that before the appointment of such bodies there was much unnecessary expenditure. A Public Works Committee is able to sift any proposal referred to them, and to present the full facts to Parliament, the members of which then know exactly what the estimated cost is, and can form a judgment as to whether or not the work should be undertaken. The appointment of the Committee is opposed on the ground that it will mean additional -expense; but if the Act is strictly followed, no works can be considered by the Committee unless . referred to it by Parliament at the instance of the Minister .concerned. With that safeguard, there can be no danger of unnecessary expenditure. The honorable member for Echuca (Mr. Palmer) and others will have the opportunity to voice their opinion on the floor of the House, as to the reference of any particular proposal, whereas, without a Public Works Committee, the Government could proceed with any works they choose. A Committee of this kind is absolutely necessary to save the country from unnecessary expenditure.

Mr ARCHIBALD:
Hindmarsh

– I cannot quite appreciate the attitude that is taken up by some honorable members in regard to the Bill before us. We have had proposals for large loan expenditure, and there have been animated debates in regard to the construction of an arsenal, naval bases, and other works of the kind. Unless we are going to sit down and wait until the war is over, and we know exactly the future political situation in Europe, we must proceed with works such as I have mentioned, _ not extravagantly, but in such a way as to show that we have a continuous policy . We often hear of the necessity for some check on expenditure by Government officials; and a Public Works Committee is about one of the best checks that we could have. I hope, however, that, in regard to some of the works, we shall not be told that they are of a secret nature, and may be carried out at the instance of the Governor-General in Council; and I do not. anticipate anything of the kind. Certainly the British Government did not take up that attitude in regard to the great naval works on the eastern coast of England. The honorable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr. Austin Chapman) seems to be pleading for economy in the abstract, but I do not think that any Australian is prepared to mark time until the conclusion of the war. That being so, some Committee of the kind is necessary to inquire into the expenditure on works such as I have indicated.

Mr Austin Chapman:

– Such works are exempt under the Act.

Mr ARCHIBALD:

– That is not so.

Mr Austin Chapman:

– The Government are exempting them.

Mr ARCHIBALD:

– I do not think so ; but, of course, there may be reasons for exempting some works from inquiry, while there are other works which necessitate inquiry. We may be asked, What is the use of a Committee of Public Works consisting of members of Parliament who may have no university education, and not be lawyers trained in the sifting of evidence, or engineering experts ? However, it is sheer rubbish to say that such a Committee is not a proper tribunal for inquiries of the kind contemplated. My public experience for nearly twenty-five years, both State aud Federal, leads me to the opinion that the most useful men in the country are those gifted with practical common sense, which they apply for the benefit of the community. So long as we have members sufficiently intelligent to sift evidence, and form opinions as to the various experts examined before them, we have as competent a tribunal as we can hope for. One gentleman, now deceased, who was a large employer of labour, and recognised as one of the shrewdest men in business, told me that he often had to consult one, or, it might be, two or three experts, and his plan was, after hearing them, to form his own judgment. That is doubtless what every practical nian does; and we should be making a great mistake if we sought to economize by refusing to appoint a’ Public Works Committee. When I was Minister for Home Affairs, I regarded that Committee as one of the most useful pieces of machinery in connexion with the Parliament and the Government.

Mr Austin Chapman:

– Hear, hear! The Committee had work to do then.

Mr ARCHIBALD:

– With such a Committee in existence, a Minister, after he has consulted his colleagues, has the opportunity to refer a work for inquiry to a body of men in whom he can have confidence. In the absence of a Public Works Committee, Ministers would need to create some sort; of tribunal for the purpose of securing information to guide them in the expenditure of money on public works. I support the Government in this matter. The House will commit a grave error of judgment if it declines to re-appoint a Committee which, in the past, has done excellent, if not perfect, work. Considering the handicap under which if carried on its work, and the number of pro jects into which it has inquired, the Committee has justified its existence, and has undoubtedly saved the Commonwealth a great deal of money.

Mr FINLAYSON:
Brisbane

.- In view ofthe arguments that have been put up in the House this session for economy in public, expenditure, and the chorus of approval that met my remarks last evening, when I said that if there was any expenditure of public money that demanded inquiry more than another it was that proposed for defence works, I cannot understand the objection to the re-appointment of a Public Works Committee, which can inquire into such matters. The first general report of the Public Works Committee points outth at from the date of its appointment to the 31st December. 1915, matters were referred to it for inquiry and report of an estimated cost of £2,429,824, and inquiries were completed, and reports presented to Parliament upon works of an estimated cost of £689,052. The second general report shows that, during the second year of the work, of the Committee, it completed inquiries as to works of an estimated cost of £1,423,874. This expenditure of money could not go on without the possibility of very serious leakages. Members of the Committee quite frankly admit that they are not experts, but as ordinary plain men without expert knowledge they claim that they were able to save a considerable sum of money. For instance, the departmental officers had recommended the building of a storage and regulating reservoir on the Upper Queanbeyan . River at a cost of £100,000’. The Committee turned that proposal’down absolutely, and saved that expenditure, which, had the Department’s proposals been adopted, would have been in progress now. It was proposed to carry out a sewerage scheme for the Flinders Naval Base at a cost of £9,500. The Committee, after inquiry, recommended an expenditure of £7,500, representing a saving of £2,000. The Committee also saved £10,000 on <the proposed additions and alterations to the Customs House, Sydney, on the departmental estimate of the cost.

Mr Lamond:

– And spoilt the job.

Mr FINLAYSON:

– No; this is not the time t’o go into the merits of that work. But, on a more suitable occasion, I should be pleased to enter into a discussion with the honorable member, or any other honorable member, as to the virtue of the recommendation of the Committee in regard to that building. In discovering a new source of water supply for the Flinders Naval Base the Committee saved £61,000. The proposal in regard to the city railway at Canberra was for an expenditure_ of £378,972. The Committee, by its alterations and recommendations, reduced this amount to £280,000, a saving of £98,972. An expenditure of £912,421 on ornamental waters at Canberra was recommended. The Committee suggested alterations to save £440,000 on that work alone.

Mr Kelly:

– And not a penny of it was spent, or was ever intended to be spent at the present time.

Mr Lamond:

– What is the cost, of the Committee to the country?

Mr FINLAYSON:

– I think that the cost of the Committee’s inquiries was £6,000. Another element to be considered is the knowledge and experience that members of this Parliament gain by being members of Committees. They get an insight into departmental workings. Their control over the expenditure of money on public works1s of immense advantage to the country.

Sir William Irvine:

– Fitting them for Cabinet rank.

Mr FINLAYSON:

– If the Public Works Committee and the Committee of Public Accounts, and other Committees, are stepping-stones to higher rank, members of those Committees are better fitted for their positions when they obtain higher rank.

Mr Lamond:

– An expenditure of £6,000 is a small item if it has educated members of the Public Works Committee.

Mr FINLAYSON:

– It shows how expenditure on education can secure very substantial results for a very small outlay. I believe that the Commonwealth is exceedingly well served by thedepartmental ‘ officers. We have in the Works and Railways Department men of special qualifications and eminent ability, but they are not infallible. The Works Committee had repeatedly to turn down the proposals of departmental officers, and make such alterations and recommendations as saved the country hundreds of thousands of pounds. . Officers have no responsibility in regard to expenditure. Their business is to get the works done. The finding of the money is a secondary consideration. I must say that I believe they endeavour to save public money to a certain extent.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I ask the honorable member not to pursue that line of argument.

Mr FINLAYSON:

– My point is that a Public Works Committee is a safety valve on public expenditure, because departmental officers, especially naval and military men, would simply run away with money if there was no check upon them. The most salutary check, and the greatest assistance to the Minister controlling public works expenditure, is to have a Public Works Committee to guide and protect him.

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

– I was in some doubt as to whether my ears were hearing aright the words of the honorable member who expressed such happy readiness to co-operate with honorable members on this side of the House, until I realized that he was speaking, not so much as a member of the Opposition - which has always, upon more unimportant details, refused pointblank to co-operate in any way with any honorable members supporting the “ Hughesite composition “ - but as a member of the Public Works Committee, and as one who had received a considerable technical education in that capacity, and was looking forward to still greater advantages of the same kind. He told us of the education of the Committee, and incidentally of the marvellous effects its members have had in stimulating the zeal and knowledge of those technical officers of the Public Service who are receiving salaries of £1,000 a year downwards because of their expert knowledge.

Dr Maloney:

– Some of them waste thousands of pounds.

Mr KELLY:

– If so they should not be in their positions. But if they are wasting thousands, what right have we to apprehend that the wrong which they have committed is to be righted because it is supervised by a number of estimable gentlemen in this House who, whatever else their merits or demerits may be, have certainly not the same technical . knowledge as is possessed by the gentlemen they supervise 1 I am not going to traverse the statement of the honorable member to the extent of congratulating the Public Works Committee upon not having effected very much harm in the past, inasmuch as, generally speaking, it showed the utmost zeal in having referred to it works which might possibly in the ordinary course of affairs be up for public scrutiny some time about 1930; because I recognise that even if the Committee has done nothing else at the cost of £6,000 - where that £6,000 has gone I would not be so mean as to inquire - it has educated its members, and these members again offer themselves as the humble instruments of this Parliament to inquire into all sorts of projects which may eventually be’ close to consummation !

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– This is the* man who voted for the Bill to create the Committee.

Mr KELLY:

– Always when a man seeks* to interfere with a plum tree bricks are thrown at him from all directions.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Sit down, and I will withdraw the Bill.

Mr KELLY:

– If the honorable member would do that no one would be better satisfied than I.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I will put all the plums in the basket.

Mr KELLY:

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– The matters which the honorable member is now discussing are beyond the scope of the Bill, which merely amends section 3 of the principal Act to enable the Committee to be appointed during the present session. The appointment of the Committee will be brought before the House on another occasion, and the reference of works to the Committee will also form the subject of separate motions, when the honorable member’s remarks will be in order. Mr. Speaker has ruled several times to-day as I am ruling.

Mr Anstey:

Mr SPEAKER:

– The personnel of the last Committee is not now under discussion.

Mr ANSTEY:

– I do not wish to discuss it, but I feel it my duty to point out that certain members of the last Committee would’ certainly not have helped to construct a breakwater with bottles. Those who are to be appointed to the

Com mil tee are no more likely to be addicted to drink than th”ose who preceded them. My objection to the appointment of this Committee at the present- juncture is that the membership is either too small or too large. There are two outstanding facts to which we may well give consideration in dealing with this Bill, The first of these is that only works connected with naval and military requirements are to be undertaken by the present Government at this juncture, and that they can be carried out without reference to the Public Works Committee.

Mr Watt:

– If the House does not desire them to be inquired into, well and good.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Naval and military works are exempt.

Mr ANSTEY:

– There is a breach in the Cabinet. The Committee is to inquire into any proposed1 expenditure of public money on public works. Those works may be divided info two important branches, the first consisting of ordinary public works, and the second those connected with the Naval and Military Departments. Naval and military works will not be referred to this Committee.

Mr Watt:

– Some of them will be.

Mr ANSTEY:

– And many of. them will not. I oppose the appointment of this Committee. I have at all times done so.

Mr Watt:

– Did not the honorable member try to get on it?

Mr ANSTEY:

I shall not argue the matter at th’s stage except to say that in my candid, opinion, looking back over a long period of years, Public Works Committees in the several States have done excellent work. I believe I shall be correct in saying that they have saved millions of money in the States since they were first inaugurated. That is my own opinion, and the opinion of others well able to judge. Whatever defects such committees may have - and they make mistakes, like any other body of men - I believe on the whole their work is good and has resulted, in many cases, in checking large and unwise expenditures and in insuring the spending of public moneys in an efficient and’ judicious manner. I hope honorable members will permit us to make this little correction, which should not have occupied the attention of the House for more than two or three minutes, but which, I very much regret, has provoked a long debate.

Question - That the Bill be now read a second time - put. The House divided.

AYES: 43

NOES: 9

Majority . . . . 34

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee:

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 -

Notwithstanding anything contained in section 3 of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-1914, the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works, to be appointed during the seventh Parliament of the Commonwealth, may be appointed during the second session of that Parliament, and shall be appointed as soon as. practicable after the commencement of this Act.

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Monaro · Eden

– I move -

That all the words after “ Works,” line 4, be left out, wi,th a view to insert in lieu thereof “ shall not be appointed during the currency of the seventh Parliament.”

Question - That the amendment (Mr. Austin Chapman’s) be agreed to - put.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 5

NOES: 47

Majority . . . . 42

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr ANSTEY:
Bourke

.- I desire to assist the honorable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr. Austin Chapman), since I have every sympathy for a man who is prepared to sacrifice his constituency to his country. I therefore move -

That after the word “ appointed,” second ‘ occurring, the words “ at the end of the session “ be inserted.

– Since I cannof think of anything to say that would be regarded as in order, I shall resume my seat.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment ; report adopted.

Standing Orders suspended, and Bill read a third time.

page 2053

WAR LOAN BILL (No. 2)

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 2053

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS BILL

Second Reading

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
ParramattaMinister for the Navy · NAT

– I move -

That this. Bill be now read a second time.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and reported without amendment; report adopted.

Standing Orders suspended, and Bill read a third time.

page 2054

LOAN BILL

In Committee (Consideration resumed from 12th September, vide page 1963) :

Schedule (Department of Works and Railways, £963,300).

Upon which Mr. Gregory had moved -

That the item “ General Arsenal - Works and Buildings, including erection of residential quarters - towards cost, £100.000,” he reduced by £1,000. …

Mr WATT:

– If that is made quite clear to the Committee I think I can give the honorable member and those supporting him an assurance that will set their doubts at rest. In considering the arsenal proposal, which, as honorable members know, is a legacy from former Administrations, the Government had to deal with two points. Primarily, we had to consider whether as a matter of policy an arsenal should be proceeded with, and having determined that question, we had to decide as to the site upon which the arsenal should be erected. The item in the schedule deals only with the primary consideration. All the Government have determined up to the present moment is that there shall be an arsenal; the question of site has not been determined. I need not worry the Committee with the arguments that induced us to arrive at that conclusion. It would not be proper to elaborate them at length, but I am entitled to say, with the full concurrence of the Government, and particularly of the Minister for Defence, that at present the position of Australia is unsafe. I hope honorable members will not ask me to elaborate that statement, or think that I am dealing in mysteries. There are certain considerations which are understood by men of the world who stilt in Parliament and have access tic more or less confidential documents, and I think it would be better if we did not debate that question further. But honorable members on both sides will indorse the view held by the present and former Governments that the present position in respect of small arm equipment and ammunition is not at all satisfactory. Generally speaking, one might assume that a Committee of the whole House, knowing all the facts, would be unanimously of opinion that we should proceed with .the establishment of an arsenal with all reasonable speed, making sure, of course, that we are well advised and are not making any fundamental blunders. In regard to the question of site, as a private member I held the view which as a Minister I still hold, that the Government are not entitled to ram any site down the throat of Parliament. Upon this subject there are widely divergent views which have been properly expressed in this House. Both Lithgow and Tuggeranong have been mentioned as the only suitable place for such an arsenal. The Government have not yet dealt with the question of sit°. and before coming to a determination upon it we shall ask the concurrence of Parliament. That is a frank and free, if brief, statement, which I hope the Committee will accept, letting us now proceed with the rest of the schedule.

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

.- The discussion which I raised in connexion with this matter was entirely on the question of site.’ I feel aggrieved that the suggestion of the Manager of the Small Arms Factory, two years ago, that more machinery should be installed, to be housed in any way possible, so that the making of quick-firers, and perhaps 18-pr. field-pieces, /might be proceeded with, was not adopted. My object in moving th<s amendment was to secure the promise that the site of the arsenal should be determined by Parliament. I agree with what the Minister has said, and shall be prepared to accept whatever decision Parliament may come to on the question. With the permission of the Committee, I, therefore, withdraw my amendment.

Mr West:

– We are going to retain all we hold in the Pacific, I hope.

Mr J H CATTS:

– Do not letus jump to any hasty conclusions on that. That is one of the matters that should be considered by this Parliament. L am not so sure that what the honorable member suggests would be the best thing for us to do. This young nation seeks no territorial aggrandisement. The probabilities are that we have already as much territory as we can handle. We are told from various quarters that, because we do not properly occupy this continent of ours, we are breaking international rules. We are told that if some other country has an overflowing population, and we make no serious attempt to fill our vacant spaces, that other country has a right to insist that her people shall be allowed to inhabit portion of this continent. If that be so, to what extent is our position further endangered by the acquisition of still further territory, which it is impossible for us to develop ?

Mr Joseph Cook:

– The honorable member is discussing a good deal more than the arsenal.

Mr J H CATTS:

– The honorable gentleman desires to hush all this up. All this has to do with the defence of Australia.. If we cannot defend Australia, how, then, can we hope to defend larger possessions? It is a moot question whether we should drive every other white power out of the Pacific altogether, or whether we should not have a buffer there. v The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Atkinson). - The honorable member is now going beyond the question before the Chair.

Mr J H CATTS:

I wish that I could induce a body of honorable members to take the action that I think ought to be taken against this Government. If I could, they would be a long time in getting this Bill through, unless they satisfied us that they were going to do something that would meet the vital needs of the country. I am bitterly disappointed to learn that the site of the arsenal has not been settled, and that the whole matter is to be started de novo.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– The honorable member, for the last quarter of an hour, has been denouncing this Government for not consulting honorable members, and now that we propose to consult them we are told we are doing wrong.

Mr J IE CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

– The right honorable member is very clever in trying to side-track honorable members, but he will not side-track me. He does not treat this matter seriously.

Mr Watt:

– This is the first time the Government have had a chance to submit this question to a Committee of Supply.

Mr J H CATTS:

– The Minister gives us very little information to go on. A little more earnestness on his part would be acceptable to honorable members. An arsenal will be the centre of our defence system, and any delay in building one will prove most serious to the interests of

Australia. I have no desire to repeat myself, but what action does the Minister propose to take if in November next Parliament decides against the Tuggeranong site?

Mr Watt:

– Do not let us deal with riddles. When we come to the matter, I think the House will be satisfied that the Government mean business. The suggestion that I have put forward is the best method of dealing with it.

Mr FENTON:

– I have no objection if it is only a matter of a postponement for a month, and the House comes to a decision to select the site at Tuggeranong; but if we do not agree to that site, there will be considerable delay. For that reason, I would like to see honorable members settle the matter to-night.

Mr STORY:
Boothby

.- I regret that I have to persist in giving honorable members the opportunity to review an illegal act in regard to the railway from Queanbeyan to the civic centre at Canberra. I have already pointed out that this railway will cost over £27,000, and that the Public Works Committee Act provides that any work estimated to cost more than £25,000 shall be referred to the Public Works Committee for report before any expenditure is incurred upon it. Apparently the Government are willing to condone the action of an official or officials in the Works and Railways Department in defying Parliament; and if honorable members are prepared to support the Government in that regard, I have done my duty by calling attention to this matter, and in asking the Committee to divide upon it. The decision of the Committee will probably ratify the action of the Government. It is said that the work for which this money is to be borrowed is nearly completed, but that cannot be the case when £8,300 is required for the purpose. It is’ urged that certain material having been purchased it will be a waste of money if it is not made use of, but I suggest that if tlie material is in the shape of rails, fishbolts, and sleepers, it can be made use of in the construction of the railway that will be necessary to connect the proposed site of the arsenal at Tuggeranong with the Queanbeyan line. I hope that honorable members will decide to build the arsenal at Tuggeranong for reasons which I need not enter upon now, because the Government are anxious to get this Bill through to-night. I do not wish to delete the whole of the item in regard to the railway to the civic centre, because a certain portion of the vote is required for a waterway on the QueanbeyanCanberra line. I move -

That the item “ Railway - completion of con struction line and new .bridge on Queanbeyan line, and additional waterway on Queanbeyan to Canberra line, £8,300,” be reduced by £7,000. If this is agreed to, £1,300 will be left for the construction of the additional waterway.

Mr WATT:
Minister for Works and Railways · Balaclava · NAT

– I appreciate the consideration that the honorable member has extended to the Committee by not taking up too much time, but I hope that he will not persist with his amendment and delay the passage of this schedule, which includes a large number 9f important public works. The question to which he has drawn attention is arguable, and it depends on the view which one takes of the works in the Federal Territory; but broadly (speaking, it is too late to effect any substantial saving in regard to this work. I was at the Federal Capital four and a half months ago, and the line was then in an advanced stage. I cannot assure the honorable member precisely where it stands now, but I know that a large quantity of timber, rails, fish-plates and other things associated with the carrying out of this work are already on the ground or in course of being laid. The cuttings and earthworks were in an advanced stage when I was there. This particular line stretches from the power-house to what is known as the civic centre. It is about 3J miles long. The honorable member has been misinformed as to the total cost of the line. The figures in my possession show that £17,000 was spent on the line up to 30th June last, and that £7,500 will be required to complete it. That makes a total of £24,500 for the 3£ miles, and thus it is exempt from the provision of the Act to which’ the honorable member has referred.

Mr STORY:

– What about the £5,000 under the heading of preservative works in the Works and Buildings Estimates?

Mr WATT:

– That item does not deal with this particular line. The Minister for Home and Territories will explain what it means. I know that Eis idea is that where certain work has been done it should be kept in a state of preservation so that its value may not be lost. That is a prudent policy. Whatever view we take as to stopping works, it would be bad economy to allow whatever has already been constructed to fall into disrepair. Salvage money should appear on the Estimates for the preservation of works already completed. Arising out of the maintenance of this railway there will be a little expenditure. The original purpose of the line was the conveyance of building material from that point to the civic centre. If works are being constructed there will be a fair amount of revenue on that section. If works are not being constructed the only traffic will be the internal- traffic of the workmen and the administrators living in the Capital and those dealing with land in the vicinity. It would be folly to stop the remaining expenditure by stacking up the few remaining rails, and not laying them, as was originally intended. The amount to be expended on the temporary wooden bridge is estimated to be £800, which, with the £7,500 for that section of line, makes the total of £8,300 appearing in the schedule. The honorable member must judge this work, as we must judge other works, not as to whether it was wise to start it in the first place, but, having started it, whether it would be wise to discontinue it. Often this problem arises in administration. A man may disagree with the original project, but he will complete it, because once having started the enterprise, it would be folly to discontinue it. That, I take it, is the position in connexion with this line.

Mr STORY:
Boothby

.- I am sorry that the Minister -for Works and Railways has been unable to convince me. It is quite clear to me that this railway has not yet crossed the river. It might, and very probably would, be of some value if it were decided to proceed with the construction of the parliamentary buildings and public offices at the Capital, but, instead of taking the line across to the proposed civic centre, where it would be absolutely useless, it might be diverted so as to finish somewhere in the vicinity of the proposed site of Parliament House, where it would be of considerable use if that work were proceeded with. If the Minister will give me an assurance that the line will not be constructed across the Molonglo River opposite to the power house, I shall be satisfied that the money is not being altogether wasted. The fact of the case is that Mr. Griffin is determined that the first business settle ment shall take place on a certain spot marked on his plan for the civic centre. Whether such settlement will be convenient for the people living there, or whether it will be economical for the Government does not concern Mr. Griffin. Under cross-examination by the Public Works Committee, he admitted that if he were successful in carrying . out his design the workmen employed in building Parliament House and the public offices would have to walk a mile to work, which would necessitate their being paid every day for the resultant loss of time. That cost does not concern Mr. Griffin so long as he can get his civic centre started at the spot marked on his plan. I know that the only object of constructing this line is that men may be induced to settle on the side of the river opposite to where it would be convenient for them to live if they were employed in building the public offices, and in order that a certain form of settlement, which Mr. Griffin has decided to be necessary for the carrying out of his design, shall take place.

Mr J H Catts:

– Does the honorable member think that Mr. Griffin has ever done anything right?

Mr STORY:

– I have nothing to say against Mr. Griffin as Director of Design and Construction, nor am I opposed to his design. I have no objection to money being spent at Canberra. On the contrary, I desire that all money which can be spared for public works at the present time shall be spent there ; but this proposed railway will be a wicked waste of money. There can be no revenue from it. A few tons of hay grown on the plains to the north of the civic centre may provide a little freight, but there is no material anywhere near the civic centre that could be carried on the line1 for the construction of Parliament House and the public offices. I shall ask the Committee to express an opinion by their votes as to whether they approve of the illegal action which has been taken in proceeding with this work, and whether they absolve whoever is responsible for this mistake.

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Monaro · Eden

– Having been at the Federal Capital six weeks ago, I can bear out the statement of the Minister. Since the Minister’s visit the cuttings have been finished, and the line has been practically completed. I understand that this money is to pay some of the expenditure. that was incurred while the work was in progress.

Mr Watt:

– I understand that that is so to some extent.

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

– I disagree from the contention of the honorable member for Boothby. For this work Mr. Griffin is not responsible. He has carried out an instruction by a previous Minister that this work should be done, and, I think, quite properly. Mr. Griffin’s plan provides for the city being divided into two centres, the parliamentary centre and the civic centre, one on each side of the river. Mr. Griffin’s idea is that when men are employed in the construction of the parliamentary buildings and public offices, they should not be living in tents around Parliament House, but that decent” workmen’s cottages should be built for them in the civic centre, on the opposite side of the river. I concur in his view. When construction work is in full swing, the men will be there, not for a day, a week, or a month, but for a very long time, and for that reason it would be false economy to house them in temporary shanties such as are provided about the brick works. The question of Mr. Griffin’s responsibility does not arise. The Minister gave an instruction, and the work is almost completed. What good could be done by refusing funds for its completion ? Notwithstanding anything Parliament mav do to’ reduce the item, the Minister will be obliged to pay the debts which have been incurred, or he will receive a writ. The construction of this railway is quite justified, for upon the completion of a further 7 miles of line to the boundary of the Federal Capital, the Government of New South Wales will be obliged, by a contract entered into with the Commonwealth, to connect that line with Yass. The State Government are prepared to fulfil their part of the contract as soon as the Common wealth has done its share.

Amendment negatived.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of Postmaster-General, £104,000.

Mr Austin Chapman:

– Will the PostmasterGeneral, in accordance with his promise last evening, inform the Committee in what country districts money is to be spent on the laying of conduits?

Mr WEBSTER:
PostmasterGeneral · Gwydir · NAT

Mr CORSER:

– As there remains so little time before tenders for the renewal of services will be considered, I ask the Minister to see that none of these outside services is cut down.

Mr GREGORY:
Dampier

.- I was pleased to hear the statement of the Minister regarding the telephone ser- - vice. I wish to amend the item so that the Minister may be able to spend some of this money in assisting those in the back country who wish to have telephones.

There is more need for expenditure on telephone services there than in the cities, because where mails are irregular other ‘ communication should be provided. At the present time, districts which have offered to pay the full interest charges demanded by the Department to make good any loss on working, and to assist in the cartage of posts and material, have been informed by the Department that, owing to the scarcity of wire, due to the war, requests for extensions cannot be granted. Yet wire is obtainable for telephone systems in the cities and big. towns. No doubt, city representatives are in sympathy with those who live in the back country, and probably the Minister is, too, though he has not shown it in a practical way. I believe in giving all that we can to the “man out back. This is not a, matter of catching votes. In the districts that I have in mind it would be difficult to find 100 electors, whereas that number of votes can be secured in a mining camp or small town where there are telephone services. I hope that the Minister will agree to the addition to the item of the words “ also for country telephones.” That will enable him to treat the country districts with a certain amount of leniency. My experience of the Department’s actions differs from the statements of the Minister. Some time ago a guarantee of £150 a year was demanded for an all-night telephone service. T know of a case in which a service was established under such a guarantee, one man paying £100 to obtain communication with the exchange. Soon afterwards, the regulation was altered, and a guarantee of £250 was demanded. This is not the way in which the Minister is treating the city populations. I should have no objection to a system which required services to pay everywhere. I should not object to a twopenny postage to make the Postal Department pay. But if concessions are to be given, they should go to the country people rather than to the town populations. According to the departmental report, last year £116,000 was lost on the Sydney metropolitan telephone system; £56,000 on the Melbourne system ; and £34,000 on. the Perth system, and no special demand is being made upon them. I move -

That the item “ For the construction of conduits and for laying wires underground - £104,000 “ be amended by the insertion, after the word “ underground,” of the words “ and also for country telephones.”

Mr BLAKELEY:

– The line is close into Mundooran

Mr Poynton:

– How long does it take for a letter to travel ?

Mr BLAKELEY:

– When a man has 1,000 head of cattle or 20,000 head of sheep which he desires to move at once, he does not wish to depend on letters, especially in view of the ‘way iri which the postal services are being- cut down. Agistment must be arranged for by wire at present, and wires are not so satisfactory as a conversation over the telephone. The residents of this district have taken the matter up and endeavoured to get the Postal Department to negotiate with the Railways Commissioners for the use of the existing telegraph poles for telephone wires ; but that proposal has been turned down. The residents in the districts affected are quite agreeable to supply more than half the poles that are necessary. The line is estimated to cost. £312, and up to date something like £150 has been offered by those residents interested. Because of the policy which has been adopted by the National Government of starving the country districts the matter has been deferred until May next; but if the war is not over, or even if it is over by that time, it will probably be deferred For another twelve months. The people who live in the interior of Australia create a great deal of the wealth that is being exported from this country: and better means of comm’unication with them by telegraph, telephone, and mail is therefore in the best interests of Australia.

– Cases of all sorts of facilities, and I certainly heard with astonishment that they had not been cut down. But for assurances from other members all round the chamber that”’ reductions had been made in their districts, J. should have been left wondering if the Postmaster-General was concentrating all his attention on my electorate. His trouble, when speaking, seemed to be something about a limitation and a definition. The “limitation” is supplied by the fact that the people in country districts have just about reached the limit of their patience, and I am afraid that the “definition” they give of the curtailment of facilities would not be parliamentary, or regarded by the Postmaster-General as complimentary if he heard it. When he says that these facilities are not being cut off I am driven to the conclusion that he does not know what is going on in his Department. I trust that he will look into the matter, and, if he examines the correspondence that is going daily into his Department, he will find that the facilities mentioned are being cut off. If it is not his intention that they should be cut off, I hope that he will use his authority as Minister, and stand by the declaration that he has made here to-night.

Amendment negatived.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of Defence (Military), £45.000; Department of the Navy, £550,000: agreed to.

Home and Territories Department, £148,600.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

.- I move -

That the item “ Land for laboratory at Royal Park, Melbourne, £8,100,” be amended by leaving out the words “ at ‘Royal Park, Melbourne.”

My object is to protest against the establishment of Federal Departments in Melbourne. We are continuously weaving a kind of spider’s web of Departments in Melbourne, which is tying the whole of the administration of Commonwealth affairs to this spot. A previous Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Tudor) decided that this laboratory should be placed at Canberra, but the present Government have reversed that decision. If there is one thing more than another that should be established at the Federal Capital, it is the grouping of scientific institutions which will be essential to the carrying on of the research work of the Commonwealth. Honorable members opposite, have previously advocated the establishment of an agricultural bureau. The best scientific experts of the world should be got together for the purpose of conducting tests that will enable our agricultural industry to develop on the most advanced lines. But the ‘idea seems to have been abandoned, though it must be taken in hand sooner or later. No better policy could be adopted than that of having these scientific institutions, when they are established, placed in close proximity to one another, so that the experts will be able to associate and discuss together various phases of the great undertakings under their care.

If it is desired that these institutions should be in the capital cities of the States, why should they all be in Melbourne? There is about £250,000 spent in Melbourne each year in the payment of officials and in the upkeep of offices concerned in the administration of affairs of the Commonwealth, and it is. this vested interest which compels the people of this city to fight like fury for the maintenance of the Federal Capital in Melbourne.

– There is the other building which Colonel Miller had put up which could be used for a serum institute. I do not desire to delay the Committee, but I do most emphatically object to the Government continuing to build these institutions in Melbourne, which is part of the conspiracy to refuse to go on with the building of the Federal Capital.

Amendment negatived.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of Trade and Customs, £51,100, agreed to.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

.- Will the Minister kindly tell the Committee, in a word, what the sum of £100,000 under the control of the Prime Minister’s Department is wanted for?

Mr WATT:
Minister for Works and Railways · Balaclava · NAT

– It is required to finish the payments in connexion with the erection of Australia House.

Schedule and title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Standing Orders suspended.

Bill read a third time.

page 2073

ADJOURNMENT

Friendly Societies - Queensland Fruit Industry

Motion (by Mr. Joseph Cook) proposed -

That the House do now adjourn.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.- I wish to briefly draw the attention of the Assistant Minister for Defence to some disabilities under which friendly societies labour with regard to the payment of funeral donations to the relatives of members who have been killed on active, service or who have died abroad. It is perhaps known that most friendly societies act upon the policy that those who give quickly give twice. In the case of the death of a member, a friendly society always likes to see that the widow is helped as early as possible. I have been connected with the Grand United Order of Oddfellows Society for years. We have always prided ourselves on the fact that we come to the rescue of the widow as quickly as we possibly can after the death of a member. It appears now that there is a good deal of difficulty in getting from the Defence Department certificates as to the death of members who have died abroad. I will hand in to the Assistant Minister a letter dealing with a specific case. I ask him to see if facilities cannot be granted to friendly societies to get death certificates at the earliest possible moment after the death of a member is made known to the military authorities. If he will promise to look into the matter in a general way, and into this special ^case, I shall be satisfied.

Mr GROOM:
Honorary Minister · Darling Downs · NAT

– I stall be glad if the honorable member will give me the letter and the specific case. This is not the first occasion on which this matter has been raised. In many cases there is a difficulty in getting a certificate . It is due, “ not to any delay on the part of the Commonwealth, but, in the case of missing soldiers, to the fact that specific findings have to be obtained from the Courts across the seas. The actual findings on which the certificate is issued are sent out to Australia. In other cases, confirmations of cabled information have to be received. I have had to deal with several cases. The difficulty arises, not only in the case of friendly societies, but also in cases where people want to get payments from life insurance companies. It is highly desirable in every case that a certificate should be obtained as early as possible. That is only fair to the widow and relatives. I assure the honorable member that I will again make representations on the matter and see if anything can be done, and particularly with regard, to the specific case he has mentioned.

Mr MACKAY:
Lilley

.- In reply to a question, the Minister for Trade and Customs informed me that he was not aware that Queensland could supply the whole of Australia with bananas grown by white labour. I have seen the report of the Royal Commission on the Fruit Industry, from which he quoted a statement that 80 per cent, of the bananas grown in the northern part of Queensland were grown by Chinese. However true that statement may have been when the report was issued, certainly it is not true now. The major portion of the land worked by Chinese is now under cane. Practically the whole of the coast land of Queensland is suitable for growing bananas, and, instead of supplying a population of 5,000,000, we might, with a little encouragement, easily supply a population of 50,000,000. The production at present is confined principally to the southern portion of the State, where large areas are still available. Australia declared against cheap black labour. Yet we find that, during 1916, no less than 377,836 centals of bananas were imported into Victoria and New South “Wales from Fiji. In that colony labour is paid 6s. a week, whereas the banana growers in

Queensland have to pay, at least, 9s. a day. It has been asserted that the Fiji article is better than the Queensland fruit. I have made careful inquiries amongst agents and retailers, and they have told me that the Cavendish banana of Queensland is certainly superior to the Gros Michel of Fiji. I submit that in these circumstances the only question should be what alteration of the duty would be high enough to protect the Queensland article against that of Fiji. It is well known that we cannot export either our pines or our bananas, and it should therefore be made possible for our fruit to be placed on the same, footing as that of Fiji. It is an industry which is supporting hundreds of families, and one which I think offers, a splendid inducement to the Government, so far as the settlement of soldiers is concerned. In Queensland we have a very large extent of Crown lands, and probably the cheapest land to be found in Australia. There is a large area of this land, which is very suitable for fruit growing, and with reasonable encourage- ‘ ment in the way of a higher duty there is no reason why quite a large number of our soldiers should not be settled there.

I want to draw attention particularly to one or two statements I have received from growers. As a preliminary, I may mention that I have seen quite a number of letters in which growers state that they have had a return as low as 2¼d. per dozen. No grower can make a living unless he! gets a better price than that. There are just one or two statements I wish to read, because I think it is important that the Minister for Trade and Customs should know something as to the returnswhich are being obtained by the growers.

By Mr.r. B. W. Gipps, Fruit-grower, Buderim Mr N.C.L.

My net returns on 12,365 dozen bananas during 1916-17, as per account sales, amounted to £79 6s. 6d. This works out at1¼d. per dozen, or12s. 6d. per 100 dozen. The expenses of production and marketing worked out at 6s. 7d.per 100 dozen, as follows: -

Net profit, 71 pence per 100 dozen, or a little less than¼d. per dozen.

Signed this 6th day of August, 1917.

B. W. Gipps.

Witness - G. Burrows, Capt., j.P. ‘

Statement by Mr. H. Tootill, Fruit-grower, Buderim Mr

My returns, as per account sales, on 3,900 dozen bananas sent to Brisbane since January, 1917, amounted to £311s. 3d. This equals 15s.11d. per 100 dozen, or nearly 2d. per dozen. From this result the following expenses of production and marketing have to be deducted : -

Thus net profit is 9s.1d. per 100 dozen, or about1d. per dozen.

Returns for 100 cases bananas, containing 2,800 dozen, consigned to Melbourne, as per account sales, less freight, was £54 16s. 9d. This is 39s. 2d. per 100 dozen, or 4¾d. per dozen.

Expenses of production and marketing were as follows: -

Net profit, 18s. 3d. per 100 dozen, or nearly 2£d. per dozen. (Sgd.) Herbert Tootill, per W. Tootill.

Witness - G-. Burrows, Capt., J.P.

One marvels at the prices I have quoted when in Collins-street, he sees bananas marked eight for1s. The average production of fruit fruit in Queensland during the past ten years has been 1,232,120 bunches per annum obtained from 6,596 acres, or 187 bunches, equal to 45 centals, per acre. The production in 1916 has fallen off to the extent of 450,000 bunches as compared with 1907.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That is because we are growing a lot of bananas on the Tweed River.

Mr MACKAY:

– I am glad to hear that and I hope the honorable member will support me in my endeavours to have the duty increased. At present, bananas are grown, in Queensland and in New South Wales, and in small quantities in Western Australia. If the duty is increased it is certain that those States will be able to supply the whole of Australia . without difficulty. At the present time it costs 5s.1d. to produce a cental of bananas in Queensland as against1s. in Fiji. The present Tariff is1s. 6d. per cental, and the growers of Queensland are satisfied that, in order to put them on anything like an equal footing with the growers of Fiji, it will be necessary to raise the Tariff to 4s. 1d. The steamers trading from Fiji to the ‘ Australian ports cut the freights down very low, becausebananas are the backloading they require. The freights are so cheap as to practically nullify the duty. These resolutions were passed at a conference of fruit-growers held in Brisbane recently -

That this conference of fruit-growers, after’ going carefully into figures relating to the comparative cost of- producing Fijian and: Queensland bananas is of opinion that to put the banana-growers of Queensland and New South Wales on an equitable footing with those of the Pacific Islands, a further Tariff is necessary.

That this conference of fruit-growers emphatically disagrees with that part of the report of the Inter-State Commission dealing with bananas, and published in 1915, for the reason that the conclusions arrived at are misleading, and in cases untrue.

The Prime Minister has said that he is prepared to blaze the track for the primary producers of Australia. The National Government could easily assist the banana growers of Queensland in this matter by increasing the duty on the imported article. We should hold our own market for our own growers. It should be a simple matter for the Government, through its numerous officers, to place such information before fruit-growers as would give them an opportunity of testing the different markets. At the same time, opportunity should be taken to inquire into the charges made by the various agents, because the growers are convinced that, in a number of cases, they are not getting a square deal. It is time the Government took this question into consideration, and I do not think they should study the interests of a few agents and growers of bananas by black labour in preference to the future progress of this very important industry in Australia.

Some sort of encouragement ought also to be given to the farmers to enable them to establish packing sheds, probably with cold storage attached. An improvement might be effected in the carriage of bananas on the Inter-State steamers. They are stowed near the boilers, and the heat generated ripens them unduly. The Government should make it compulsory to load and unload the fruit with trays. There -are the best of reasons why steps should be- taken to give, the farmers encouragement to embark upon cooperation in marketing .and distribution. The by-products of bananas are also worthy of consideration- We have evidence that figs, flour, and even whisky can be produced from bananas. Recently, I read a newspaper paragraph to the effectthat, at the St. .Louis Exhibition, a sample of whisky made from bananas was shown, and after analysis by the Department of Agriculture, was awarded a gold medal. ‘ All these matters are worthy the attention of the Government, but, in the meantime, an alteration of the Tariff is the most important consideration. Having regard to the fact that the banana industry means so much to the States of Queensland, New South Wales; and Western Australia, ‘the Government might well take the earliest opportunity of giving this very necessary relief.

I desire now to say a few words about pineapples and citrus fruits. Queensland is producing annually pineapples to the value of £S8,828. It is notorious that this fruit is often unprocurable in the southern .States, and the reason is that decent cold storage accommodation is not available on the ships. In. Queensland, last season, a lot of this fruit was simply dumped in heaps and wasted, because it was impossible to market it in anything like decent order. The shippers assert that there is cold storage accommodation, but the growers will not pay for it. On the other hand, the growers say that they would utilize such accommodation if it were available. One has to pay an exorbitant price for a Queensland pineapple in Melbourne or Sydney. Something might be done to assist the growers to make the most of this important trade, and place this favorite fruit within the reach- of the people.

The production of oranges last year was valued at £100,636, and I have a statement here which I would like to have inserted in Hansard, so that people who buy oranges may know that the growers, at all events, are not reaping huge profits.

Mr J H Catts:

– The middleman takes the people down all the time.

Mr MACKAY:

– This is due to faults in the system of distribution’. The growers do not want any gift, but are willing to help themselves if only the Government can give them some instruction in the matter of distribution. I notice that the fruit-growers of Victoria are doing something in the way of cooperation, and .the Queensland people are now waiting an opportunity to follow in the same direction. This is a statement made by Captain Burrows, a well-known fruit-grower of Buderim Mountain -

The expenses incurred in producing- a case of orange’s during 1917 were as follows: -

Timber, 9d. .per case; nails, packing, and branching, Id. per case; picking, 3d. per case; packing, brushing, grading, and cartage to rail head, 4d. per case; manuring (on a basis of 20 lbs. of dried blood per tree yielding 8 cases), 2d. per case; pruning (allowing 2 hours per tree, at 8s. per day of 8 hours’), 2s. per tree, equal to 3d. per case; spraying (1 barrel of lime sulphur to 100 trees), £3 5s.; wages, £2 8s.; benzine, ls.; together with a further spray of red ‘oil, £5 14s.; a total of £11 8s., equal to 2s. 3d. per tree, or 3d. per case; cultivation of orchard during the year (minimum statement of 8 days, at 8s. per day, equal to Id. per case) ; tramway freight to railhead, 4d. per case; total cost of production, bedrock statement, 2s. 6d. per case.

I make no allowance for rates and special tramway area rates, interest on purchase money, cost of farm implements, &.o., &c.

The average returns in Melbourne were 6s. 6d., less transit expenses, 3s. 6d. per case, giving a profit of 3s. per case.

Cost of production, as given above, being deducted, I received a net profit of 6d. per case containing an average of from 200 to 220 oranges per case. I have seen exactly the same grade and type of orange being retailed during this period in Brisbane at 18 fruits to the shilling. ,

I have put the statement in so that I may draw attention to the price asked for fruit in Victoria and New South Wales, and show that the growers are not getting big profits. My object is to induce honorable . members to take a little interest in this important matter, and to assist our fruit-growers. if only the Government will give the farmers a lead - that is all they asking for - so far as cooperative action is concerned, they will feel encouraged to go on. The matter is important both to growers and consumers, and I hope, therefore, that the Minister for the Navy (Mr. Joseph Cook) will take an early opportunity of bringing it before his colleagues, so that something may be done. A slump is threatened in the dairying industry, but the fruit-grow- ing industry will come to the rescue of the Commonwealth, if it receives anything like reasonable encouragement, and become one of the first industries of the Commonwealth.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at 12.10 a.m. (Friday).

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 13 September 1917, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1917/19170913_reps_7_83/>.

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House of Representatives13 September 1917

QUESTION

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HUGHES:Attorney-General · BENDIGO, VICTORIA · NAT

Mr Tudor:

Mr HUGHES:

QUESTION

MEMBERS OF BOARDS

Mr TUDOR:

Mr HUGHES:NAT

QUESTION

REVIEW OF SENTENCE

Mr RILEY:SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HUGHES:NAT

QUESTION

WAR PRECAUTIONS REGULATION

Mr J H CATTS:COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HUGHES:NAT

QUESTION

TELEPHONE MONITORS

Mr BRENNAN:BATMAN, VICTORIA

Mr WEBSTER:Postmaster-General · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

QUESTION

INTERCEPTION OF WIRELESS MESSAGES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

QUESTION

DISEASED MEAT ON TRANSPORTS

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr JOSEPH COOK:NAT

Dr Maloney:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

QUESTION

TELEPHONE CONDUITS IN BUSH TOWNS

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

Mr WEBSTER:NAT

QUESTION

DISMISSAL OFSEAMEN

Mr BRENNAN:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:NAT

QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

Mr GLYNN:Minister for Home and Territories · ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

Mr TUDOR:Yarra

Sir John Forrest:

Mr TUDOR:

Mr Leckie:

Mr TUDOR:

Mr Corser:

Mr TUDOR:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr TUDOR:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr TUDOR:

Mr Austin Chapman:

Mr TUDOR:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr TUDOR:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr TUDOR:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr TUDOR:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr TUDOR:

Mr HUGHES:Prime Minister and Attorney-General · Bendigo · NAT

Mr J H CATTS:Cook

Mr BRUCE SMITH:PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr J H CATTS:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr J H CATTS:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr J H CATTS:

Mr WALLACE:West Sydney

Sir John Forrest:

Mr WALLACE:

Mr Riley:

Mr WALLACE:

Mr Fowler:

House of Representatives
13 September 1917

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · BENDIGO, VICTORIA · NAT

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

Mr RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

Mr BRENNAN:
BATMAN, VICTORIA

Mr WEBSTER:
Postmaster-General · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Minister for the Navy · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
NAT

Mr WEBSTER:
NAT

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
NAT

Mr GLYNN:
Minister for Home and Territories · ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr HUGHES:
Prime Minister and Attorney-General · Bendigo · NAT

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr WALLACE:
West Sydney

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr HEITMANN:
Kalgoorlie

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · BASS, TASMANIA · NAT

Mr STORY:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JENSEN:
NAT

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

Mr WEST:
for Mr. Mahony

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
NAT

Mr J H CATTS:
for Mr. Finlayson

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

Mr BAYLEY:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

Mr HUGHES:
NAT

Mr J H CATTS:
for Mr. Mahony

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
NAT