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House of Representatives
17 December 1912

4^th Parliament · 3^rd Session

QUESTION
- POSTAGE STAMP PRINTERS
QUESTION
- HIGH COMMISSIONER
QUESTION
- ELECTORAL ROLLS
QUESTION
- PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BUSINESS
QUESTION
- ARBITRATION ACT ADMINISTRATION
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH BUILDINGS IN LONDON
QUESTION
- CASUAL EMPLOYES
QUESTION
- CORNSACKS
PAPERS
REFERENDUM (CONSTITUTION ALTERATION) BILL (NO. 2)
LAND TAX ASSESSMENT BILL
- Second Reading
QUESTION
- ESTIMATES
COMMONWEALTH WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION BILL
SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT
ADJOURNMENT
- Auditor-General’s Report - Order of Business

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers.

page 7239

QUESTION

POSTAGE STAMP PRINTERS

Deprivation of Holidays

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I wish to know from the Postmaster-General whether his Department proposes to have the new Commonwealth stamp printed during the Christmas season, and that, consequently, those engaged in the work of printing will lose their Christmas holidays. I ask if there is any need for this, except to give effect to the intention of having the stamp issued on the 1st January next?

Mr FRAZER:
Postmaster-General · KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– That question should have been addressed to the Treasurer. I read the statement in this morning’s newspapers. It is true that I have promised to have the hew stamp issued on the 1st January next, if possible, but it is not proposed to take away from those engaged in the work of printing it the two main holidays of the Christmas season. Personally, I am not very desirous of having the stamp issued on a particular date, and part of the issuewill, in any case, be ready on New Year’sDay. If the Treasurer concurs, I would: say that the men need not work on holidaysto which they are entitled.

page 7239

QUESTION

HIGH COMMISSIONER

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

Has Mr, Murdoch, who went to England in connexion with the erection of the Commonwealth buildings in London, yet arrived at his destination?
If so, has his visit resulted in any alteration in the original design?

What has been the result of the alteration, if “any ?

Has the cost of construction been reduced or the time-limit shortened, or has any. additional space been secured without seriously impairing the accommodation as originally proposed?

Mr THOMAS:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

Yes.
Yes. 3 and 4. The principal result will be to obtain a large increase in the space that will be available, and, consequently, in the rentals to be derived from the building. It is not anticipated that any appreciable difference in the time or cost of constructing the building will be shown.

page 7240

QUESTION

CASUAL EMPLOYES

Christmas Payment

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

asked the Prime. Minister, upon notice -

Where practicable, will he kindly cause the casual employes in the Commonwealth Service to be paid on the 24th instant; and, if possible, include payment for any holidays they are entitled to be paid for up to the end of the year?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– Payment on the 23rd December for the period ending 31st December has already been arranged for, not only to permanent employes, but to all casuals whose services are likely to beretained up to the end of the month.

page 7240

QUESTION

CORNSACKS

Mr McDOUGALL:
WANNON, VICTORIA

asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the standard cornsacks imported into Australia are made in India by cheap coloured labour?
What were standard cornsacks quoted at, per dozen, by the Calcutta manufacturers during September, October, and November of the present year?
What were standard cornsacks quoted at, per dozen, by merchants in Melbourne, Sydney, and Adelaide during September, October, and November of the present year?
Are the high prices ruling in Australia for cornsacks due to increases in wages, as alleged, or to a trade arrangement between the sellers?

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

– The answer to the honorable member’s first question is “Yes.” An endeavour will be made to obtain the information desired.

page 7240

PAPERS

MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers -

Report, by F. V. Theobald, on the second International Congress on entomology held at Oxford, August, 1912.

Defence - Memorandum by the Minister of State for Defence on the Estimates in Chief of the Defence Department for the Financial Year 1912-13.

Ordered to be printed.

Defence Act -

Military College - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1912, No. 231.

Universal Training - Regulations Amended (Provisional) -

Statutory Rules 1912, No. 228.

Statutory Rules 1912, No. 230.

Inter-State Commission Bill 1912 - Summary of English and American Legislation.

Maternity Allowance Act - Provisional RegulationStatutory Rules 1912, No. 225.

page 7241

REFERENDUM (CONSTITUTION ALTERATION) BILL (NO. 2)

Bill read a third time.

page 7241

LAND TAX ASSESSMENT BILL

Second Reading

Provided that the added value shall in no case exceed the amount that should reasonably be involved in bringing the unimproved value of the land to its improved value as at the date of assessment.

It is well known that there are, in Australia, large areas of land that were cleared in the old days at much cost. In arriving at its unimproved value one has only to secure the evidence of those who knew it in its natural state, and are familiar- with its condition at the present time. I fail to understand how the Minister will be able to administer this particular provision. The improvements made on many holdings, especially in my electorate, would cost 50 per cent, more to make to-day than they did originally. This provision will cut both ways, but instead of making the administration of the Act easier I am confident - and I speak as one who .knows a good deal of the land question - that it will lead to still further complications. Another difficult problem remains to be solved in connexion with the question of leases. Clause 4 provides for the repeal of section 27 of the principal Act, and the insertion in its stead of a new clause dealing with “ the owner of a leasehold estate in land.” The Attorney-General will have to make a little plainer the intentions of the Government. The proposed new clause, as it stands, might include any lease. It speaks of “ the owner of a leasehold estate,” but there is nothing to show whether the reference is merely to a Crown lease or to leases of all kinds. As it stands the provision might bring within the scope of the principal Act a number of leases to which at present it does not apply. It will be necessary for the Attorney-General to place in the Bill a clear definition of the term “ the owner of a leasehold estate in land.” Difficulties are also likely to arise in regard to the amendment of that part of the Act which relates to joint-owners. It is a great hardship that partners, working two estates as one, and so securing greater economy in management, should have to deal separately with them. This will be an incentive to men to evade the law. The Bill has been in our hands for only half-an-hour, and yet, within that short space of time, we have been able to discover in it several matters that will need to be remedied. Another provision which requires to be closely examined is that contained in proposed new section 42A which declares that -

Where land is occupied, controlled or used by a person who is not the owner, and there is no lease or agreement for a lease for a definite term in respect of the occupancy, control, or user of the land, the person occupying, controlling, or using the land shall be deemed to be the lessee for life of the land……

Will the provision, as to joint-owners, apply to properties owned by a man and his wife or his children and worked as one? In Australia a married woman is allowed, and rightly so, to hold land in her own right, and very often to secure greater economy, husband and wife work their properties as one. Under this Bill, however, it will be impossible to do so. Joint properties will have to be divided; the stock of the husband and the wife will have to be branded differently, and a great deal of unnecessary expense will be involved. The Attorney-General, instead of assisting the taxpayers of Australia by passing this Bill, will add. to their difficulties, and be guilty of a very serious blunder. Proposed new section 42a will certainly lead to trouble in the country, and anything that will make trouble should be avoided. We were promised a concise amending Bill that would make much clearer the position in regard to the joint ownership of land, and also as regards the improvements on land. That promise has not been fulfilled. It seems to me that we require an improved system of dealing with the lands of Australia for taxation purposes. It would be much better for the Government to bring in :a simple measure to deal with the lands as they are to-day, separating rural from town lands, and imposing a very much smaller tax on land values.

Mr West:

– We have not the power under the Constitution to do that.

Mr LIVINGSTON:

– I hope that it will be found that we have not the power to enact some of these provisions. I am -confident that they will lead to a great deal of trouble, and I am sure that the ^honorable member has no desire that the people of Australia should be unnecessarily harassed. The two clauses to which I have referred, instead of assisting the land-owners, will hamper them, and will also hamper the operations of the Commissioner and the land tax assessors. At this stage of the session we cannot devote to the consideration of this Bill the time that we ought to give to it. I know that the Prime Minister desires to be fair, and I think that he should at least postpone the further consideration of this measure until printed copies of the statement made by him have been distributed amongst honorable members, <and time Was been given us to carefully study the proposed provisions.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

.- I do not pretend to understand the technical portions of this Bill. For one reason I have not had time to look into them, and it would involve some hours of study to grasp what is intended, and what the Bill really provides.

Mr Fisher:

– I admit that.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– There are one or two matters . in connexion with this question that I desire to emphasize. In the first place, we have in this Bill a complete departure from the principle underlying unimproved land value taxation. Roughly speaking, the basis upon which we work in estimating the unimproved value of a property is to imagine it in its unimproved state, and to consider what price it would bring in that state at the time that the assessment was. made. Here, however, we have a complete departure from that principle. Under clause 4 it proposed to establish a new basis of valuation, as ihe result of which the effect of the improvements is not to be taken into consideration, only the bare monetary cost. That is most unfair. It will lead to a con?siderable increment in the taxable value of many holdings, and will work out most unjustly. Take the case of the country in which there are artesian bores. A man might be fortunate enough by sinking once to strike a good supply of artesian water, and the value added to his land by that improvement would be very great. Another man might have to bore four or five times before striking an adequate supply, but while the added value to his property would be only the value of one good bore, he would have been at the expense of putting down four or five bores to secure it. I suppose that, taking things by and large, the added value of the property of land-holders in Australia is about what has been expended in the improvements, but it is clear that in certain cases it may be much less or more.

Mr West:

– We could not make the assessment higher than the sale value.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member should know that the basis on which the assessments are made is not the sale value at all, but the unimproved value, and I say that this Bill proposes a complete departure from the principles of unimproved value taxation. The object is to get at the taxpayer to a greater extent than it has been possible to do under the existing law. I take the case of a man who runs the risk of taking up swamp land, which, unimproved, may be valued at 10s an acre. He may believe that it will be very greatly improved by drainage, although some swamp land is no earthly good when it is drained. Though he mayspend no more than one-third of his estimate of the cost of draining the land, the improvements may add enormously to its value. Under this Bill all that he will be able to deduct in respect of the improvement is the actual cost of it. In such a case the basis of taxation will no longer be the unimproved value. Many men who take such risks often lose thousands of pounds, but the Government take no notice of their case at all.

Mr Charlton:

– Why not take another case, where, by reason of the construction of a railway, land is very greatly improved in value.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That is an entirely different matter. I agree that where the added value is due to the construction of a railway, it is perfectly right and just to levy this tax, but that is not what the Government propose to do by this Bill. I think I know what is at the back of this proposal. A man may take up land, and by simple and inexpensive means improve it considerably. The added value in such cases will be very much more than the actual cost of improvements, but it is intended under this measure to add that added value to the taxable value of the land, and I say that is not fair or just.

I am sorry that the Government have not seen their way to introduce legislation to sever from the individual interest the interests of taxpayers in companies. I think that a company should be treated as a separate entity. During the three years in which the Act has been in operation it has been found impossible to properly assess the interests of people in companies. If these assessments are ever made the aggregate tax which the Government will collect upon them will be comparatively very small. They would have been very well advised if they had proposed to strike out of the original Act the provisions which make the interest in a company accumulate upon the individual interests in land of each shareholder, thereby increasing the incidence of individual taxation. In regard to mortgages I should very much like to have seen the Government propose insome way to ease the position of the mortgagor. In their experience of the actual working of the land tax they must have found that in many cases it works most unfairly and unjustly. I am also sorry that they have not seen their way to alter the provisions of the existing Act with regard to absentees. The Prime Minister must have had ample evidence of the annoyance which this taxation has caused to people whom it is to our interests not to annoy at all. In the circumstances, the Government would have been wise if they had proposed to relieve absentees of this additional taxation, which is the means of bringing in very little additional revenue. Honorable members opposite are beginning to realize that the tax has not had the effect which they anticipated. The actual area per head which is now under cultivation is a good deal less than it was prior to the introduction of the tax. The increase in the area under cultivation is falling year by year. It will probably be found that that increase this year will be much less than it has been for many years.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– What about the big estates which have been cut up?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– When the big estates are cut up they are usually put under wheat. I never thought that the operation; of the tax would have the effect which honorable members opposite predicted. The whole matter requires review.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Glynn) adjourned.

page 7247

QUESTION

ESTIMATES

In Committee: (Consideration resumed from 15th November, vide page 5592).

Defence Department

Division 38. (Central Administration)

£93,990.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

.- There is an item here, “ Inspector of Rifle Ranges,£360.” I do not know what has been the experience of other honorable members, but my own experience of rifle ranges has been of a most unsatisfactory character. In connexion with the formation of rifle clubs a lot of routine has to be gone through which takes up a considerable time. But the chief difficulty arises when it comes to the actual construction of the range itself. Casino, one of the principal centres in my electorate, where there is a battalion of Light Horse, and other branches of. the service, including cadets, has been without a range for more than three and a half years. When I was returned to this House the range which they had been using had been condemned. Since then a new range has been constructed. The selection of the site occupied a great deal of time. But when this trouble had been adjusted a little more than a year was allowed to elapse before the authorities commenced the construction of the range by means of day labour. No sooner had the work been completed, and the range opened than it was condemned. It does seem extraordinary that the new range should have been condemned immediately it was opened. I do not know who is to blame for this.

Mr Cann:

– There are too many experts.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Officers are appointed, and all they seem to do is to condemn what the “ other fellow “ has done. As a result we can get no finality. There should be some honest attempt on the part of the authorities to deal with these rifle ranges with reasonable expedition. There is no necessity for delays extending over years. We need to encourage those who are prepared to give up their leisure to practise rifle- shooting in order that they may be a source of strength to us if ever we should require their services in the defence of Australia. As far as I can see, the Department discourages them. They are not being helped to carry on the work which they are doing. The Minister ought to “ shake up “ officers in charge of this rifle range work. He should bring those responsible to book, because there is clearly negligence in regard to this work. Important matters are hung up month after month. The great source of trouble seems to be that the officers in control do not think the riflemen of much account. They are regarded as not worth bothering about. It is a scandalous state of affairs and discreditable to the Department that tolerates it.

Mr. SPENCE (Darling) Ti 1.43].- My electorate is the largest one in New South Wales, and in every centre there are enthusiastic riflemen. But they have great trouble with the administration in Sydney. As far as I can ascertain there are some officers who ought to be removed, or forced to get “ a bit of a hustle on.” Complaints have been made from every centre

Mr Cann:

– It is impossible to get the officers to move.

Mr SPENCE:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr Cann:

– They are on the grass at Chipping Norton.

Mr RYRIE:

– Yes, and at Cunninghame too. There was not very much grass, but they were on the grass, and at the same time they were fed in troughs in paddocks.

Africa. The incidents connected with that campaign illustrated that it was the men who could ride and shoot who were able to put up such a good showing. Nobody will suggest that the Boers were pastmasters in the art of drilling. But they could ride and shoot, and we know the performances which they put up against the greatest army which could be placed in the field against them. I think that the Minister has a right to ask why it is that large sums can be expended in other directions, whereas the money provided for rifle clubs is not expended? I do not agree with the honorable member for North Sydney that we should begin by supplying members of rifle clubs with uniforms. I hold that we should commence by supplying them with rifles. Throughout my own district there are bands of young men who are enthusiastic in their desire to become expert marksmen, but who were discouraged from doing so. The Defence Department applies a cheese-paring policy to our rifle clubs. 1 hope that the Honorary Minister will impress upon the Minister of Defence the necessity for giving earnest consideration to this matter during the recess. If ever an enemy lands in Australia a guerilla warfare will have to be conducted, and we shall have to depend - not upon the men who look the nicest - but upon the men who can ride and shoot. I hope that the money we are now voting for rifle clubs will be spent, and that those clubs will be provided with more ammunition and more encouragement to enter competitions with a view to becoming proficient marksmen.

Mr MCWILLIAMS:
Franklin

– The question of the treatment of our rifle clubs is becoming an annual one. Up to the present they have not received the consideration which they ought to receive, in view of the great fighting force which their members would supply in time of national emergency. It is the men who can find the target under all sorts of conditions whom we want to encourage, and I am sorry to say that hitherto they have received little consideration from the Defence Department. I agree with the honorable member for Corangamite that it is much more essential that the members of our rifle clubs should be supplied with up-to-date rifles and with ammunition to enable them to become efficient marksmen than that they should be supplied with uniforms. I will guarantee that the members of an ordinaryrifle club will beat any squad from the per- manent forces at rifle shooting in any competition in which they may engage. I am glad to say that the question of defence has always been above party considerations I hope we shall obtain from the Minister representing the Minister of Defence something much more definite than we have hitherto done. There is a belief that the Military Board and certain of our permanent officers are not favorably disposed towards our rifle clubs.

Mr Roberts:

– I do not think there is the slightest justification for that suspicion.

Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.30 p.m.

Mr MCWILLIAMS:

– Every year, for a long while past, the complaint has been made that the rifle clubs do not receive from the Defence Department the consideration that is their due, and many of their members are of the opinion that there is a feeling on the part of some in authority that the clubs are not required. I do not say that such a feeling exists, but I hope that when we come to vote for rifle clubs the Honorary Minister will state definitely that the clubs are to be treated very differently in the future. The complaint of want of consideration does not come from one club or from one electoral division, but from all parts of the Commonwealth. All the members of these clubs are fair, and the majority of them are good rifle shots, and they deserve more consideration. The Department could have done more in the way of providing rifle ranges, but often the reasons for not acceeding to fair requests have been little better than mere, excuses. It is not in the interest of the Department that things should continue as they are. I hope that by a motion for the reduction of the vote by £1 action will be taken by the Committee which will impress upon the Minister the. need for treating the clubs better. I protest against the manner in which these Estimates have been put before us. The Defence Department is the greatest spending Department of the Commonwealth. Its expenditure in these Estimates amounts to ^2,500,000. Yet they are put before us without the slightest explanation of many important changes that are being made, and no doubt the effort will be made to push them through in one sitting without affording information to honorable members and to the country. My view is that Estimates should be discussed early in the session, and that members should have the fullest and most complete explanation of proposed changes of policy. The Honorary Minister is always ready to give fair answers to questions, and he knows that there is nothing personal in my suggestion that the Department should be represented in this House by its Minister. It is not right that the head of such an enormous spending Department should hold a seat in the Senate. The Honorary Minister is always ready to afford what information is in his power, but he cannot be held responsible for the administration of the Department. It should be .one of the first duties of the Government, whatever Government may be in power at the beginning of next Parliament, to re-allot portfolios so that the great spending Departments shall all be represented by Ministers in this Chamber, which alone controls the fate of Ministries. I complain that there is a statement in to-day’s newspaper of a change of policy about which Parliament has not been informed. Almost always Parliament is informed of the intentions of Ministries only by press statements, about which one member or another asks the Minister responsible if they are correct. In to-day’s newspaper it is stated that cadets who have failed to attend drills will be confined in barracks. Compulsory training is essential to our defence system, and we should know what this change means. Is it intended to bring from remote districts, and to imprison in the barracks in the larger centres, boys who have failed to attend the necessary number of drills? The centres in which there are barracks are few.

Mr Archibald:

– The honorable member knows that what he suggests is not intended, but he thinks that if he puts the worst construction on the action of the Minister he must be doing right.

Mr MCWILLIAMS:

– The honorable member for Hindmarsh is so blinded with party prejudice that he fails to recognise fair criticism. If only those boys who live in centres where there are barracks are to be punished, three-fourths of the cadets will go unpunished. Either the Government intend to punish only those boys who reside in districts where there are barracks, or boys are to be brought from long distances to be imprisoned in barracks. We should have had a statement from the Minister on this important matter; the press should not be used as a vehicle for conveying information while Parliament is in session. The Minister should have made a statement in his place in the Senate, and the Honorary Minister should, at the same time, have made the same statement here. I hope that the latter will inform us of the exact intention of the Minister. If the compulsory system is to be universal, means must be provided for compelling boys to attend the specified drills. At present the boys are practically volunteers, because, although they may be fined for nonattendance, no provision is made for recovering the fines. We should be informed whether imprisonment in barracks is to be made a universal punishment, or whether it is to be a punishment inflicted only in the larger centres. Our expenditure on defence amounts to £1 per head for every man, woman, and child, in Australia, and the country should know what the intentions of the Government are in defence matters. The action of the Government in forcing through the Estimates in the last week of the session will not redound to their credit. We are not being treated fairly in connexion with these Estimates. We can only endeavour to obtain information when the Estimates are before us, and now, in the last two or three days of a dying Parliament, we find that our endeavours are in vain.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare

– As the representative of a large country division, -I have much sympathy with the criticism1 that has been levelled at the Administration, particularly in connexion with rifle clubs. In my electorate there are a number of farming centres and towns of varying sizes, where there is a genuine desire to establish such clubs, and where the very best material can be obtained for the purpose. The young men would willingly devote their spare time to rifle practice, not only with a view to exercise, but with a view to making themselves efficient for the defence of the country. One of the great obstacles is that these clubs cannot carry on their work until sites have been provided for rifle ranges; and there would seem to be almost insurmountable difficulties in this direction. The first difficulty is in getting the right of occupancy of Crown lands from the State Departments, but exactly where this trouble arises I am not prepared to say. I am informed that the delay and trouble are so considerable that, as a rule, it is found preferable to deal with private landowners, although the State Governments ought to be as keenly interested in defence as is the Commonwealth. As to private land-owners, the Defence Department very properly requires that the leases shall extend over such a term as will enable the Government to recoup themselves for the necessary expenditure. In the early stages of my experience, a gentleman who was interested in rifle shooting, and was the manager of a property held by a Melbourne syndicate, agreed, I presume, with the consent of his principals, to make a suitable area available for the purposes of a range. The offer was accepted, and considerable expenditure was incurred by the Department. Some little time afterwards, however, another manager was appointed who did not take the same keen interest in rifle shooting as did his predecessor, and he was of opinion that the company would receive greater benefits by the utilization of the land for grazing purposes. He, therefore, ignored the original arrangement; and it looked as though the expenditure would prove to have been thrown away, when the company agreed to extend the lease, reserving to itself some grazing privileges that had hitherto been enjoyed by the club. This case shows, of course, that there must be a definite agreement with private owners; and it is here that another difficulty arises. Land-owners very often intimate that they are willing to make land available, but when they are presented with an agreement, in full legal phraseology, they become afraid and withdraw from their undertaking.

Mr Mcwilliams:

– The honorable member would not wonder at that if he saw some of the agreements.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:

– I think there is something in that suggestion; the phraseology is not only very legal, but some of the conditions do not seem to be quite necessary in the case of land leased for rifle shooting. At any rate, it often happens that, when all the preliminary negotiations have been completed, the signatures are withheld. There is considerable ground for complaint, because of the fact that the Department adheres much too firmly to red-tapeism. If an officer is sent out to inspect a site, and does not approve of it, he will not, under existing conditions, consent to inspect any other sites there may be in the neighbourhood, on the ground that these latter are not included in his instructions. That being so, if a site is adversely reported upon, the whole of the business has to be begun de novo..

If the Department were run on business lines an inspection officer would not limit himself to one particular site, but would turn his attention to any other available areas that there might be in the neighbourhood. In one such case, those interested in the club we’re most anxious to have an inspection made of some other site, but the officer absolutely refused to go outside his instructions. That seems to me to be a weak spot in the administration; and it would be better if a little common sense and elasticity were introduced into the business. Of course, it is likely that the officers are not to blame - that if they went outside their instructions they might be open to censure at the hands of their superiors - but there is no doubt that some latitude should be allowed to men intrusted with such, duties. There are other little troubles and difficulties that arise. For instance, in one case, the site offered had some advantages, but because a track had been made across it by some of the local residents, there was great difficulty in arriving at any finality in the negotiations; and I believe, though I am not quite sure, that that site had to be abandoned. The young men start these clubs with great enthusiasm, but the delays and other troubles have a very damping and depressing influence. Very often by the time the Department is in a position to offer a site the enthusiasm has altogether disappeared, and it would seem as though the Department set out to test the genuineness of the desire of the promotors of the club by delay and worry. The value of rifle clubs in a citizen force cannot be overestimated. It is well known that the more highly-drilled sections of the British Army showed deficiency in shooting in the South African war, and that it was just in shooting that the greater efficiency of the raw Boer soldiers was displayed. That war taught us to some extent a lesson; but, as I say, the delays and difficulties are great dampers on the progress of this branch of our defence system. The Department will be well advised to eliminate a great deal of red-tape, and thus simplify the process of forming rifle clubs.

The Australian Light Horse is a very important branch of our Defence Forces ; but the policy of the Department in the past has been to limit the corps to the big cities and the coastal districts. Even where there is railway communication objections are raised on the par of officers to the encouragement of the formation of corps of light horse. It is in the country districts - on the stations and farms where many of the young men practically live in the saddle- that the best material can be obtained, and not in the cities, where bank clerks and others only devote a small part of their spare time to riding exercise. If this reluctance to permit the formation of corps has anything to do with the somewhat expensive equipment, something might be done in the way of creating a Scout adjunct.

Mr Fuller:

– Do the Government pay for the equipment.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:

– I understand that the expense is one of the objections urged against the establishment of these corps.

Mr Fuller:

– I think that the honorable member would find that the men themselves pay most of the expense.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:

– I am told that the men contribute very liberally, but that the Department has to make certain contributions which are pleaded as art excuse for not extending this arm of the Forces. In back-bush districts, we might allow corps of bushmen to be formed, and these men might become thoroughly efficient for defence purposes without involving the Commonwealth in any large expenditure. The officials of the Department know that several residents of Condobolin went to the South African war, and when they came back formed a light horse corps. For several years they tried in vain to obtain recognition from the Department, and ultimately they enrolled themselves as members of a mounted rifle club. Our regulations should be more elastic, and the Department should be able to look with a more kindly eye upon bodies of men who are willing to give their services to the country under conditions which will involve little or no outlay.

In connexion with out cadet system, the weak point is that the officers who have been placed in charge of the various divisions are not paid sufficient to enable them to devote the whole of their time to the important work of training cadets. They have to devote the greater part of their time to private business, and give only odds and ends to public business. One of the results is that the cadets have to be trained at inconvenient times, and, in view of the partial service rendered, the divisions are in many cases too large. I believe the officers do their best, under the circumstances; but we shall always have trouble until we are able to command the whole of their time.

Then, again, the Department have made some radical changes recently in connexion with uniforms. I have looked into the arguments of the Department in support of the abolition of the Highland dress.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member must not discuss that question. There is a notice of motion on the businesspaper dealing with that question.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– On a point of order, I would like to ask if you rule that an honorable member is out of order in discussing on the Estimates a matter of departmental administration that is the subject of ‘a notice of motion.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I do rule in that way.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I would point out that, in my view, your ruling is not’ supported under standing order 117 or standing order 274. Under the firstmentioned standing order, “no motion or amendment shall anticipate an Order of the Day, or any other motion of which notice has been given.” We are not now discussing any morion or amendment, but are debating Estimates which cover the whole field of Defence administration. Therefore, I submit that your ruling will not stand. Standing order 274 provides that “no honorable member shall digress from the subject-matter of any question under discussion.” The honorable member has not been digressing. It is further provided that no honorable member shall “ anticipate discussion on another question.” The honorable member is not dealing with another subject, but is discussing a matter which comes well within the scope of Defence administration. >If your ruling could be sustained, it would, if followed to its logical conclusion, burke the discussion of every division of the Estimates.

Mr Mcwilliams:

– On the point of order, I submit that if your ruling were sustained, it would be within the power of any honorable member to block discussion on any subject whatever. If some grave scandal arose during recess, an honorable member might, immediately Parliament reassembles, place a motion on the noticepaper for, say, four months ahead, and prevent the matter from being discussed, except when that notice of motion came on for consideration. It has been held by the highest authorities that, in connexion with the granting of Supply, any matter involving the expenditure of money for which’ provision is made on the Estimates, is open for discussion, and no ruling could be tolerated which would prevent the fullest and completest discussion of the items on the Estimates.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I would point out that there is a simple method of testing the matter. If the motion on the businesspaper affirmed that it was undesirable that money should be voted for the purchase of kilts for Highland regiments, your ruling would absolutely shut out honorable members from the possibility of striking the amount off the Estimates. Even though it might be known that the feeling of honorable members was entirely against the purchase of kilts, we should be prevented from taking action. The effect of such a ruling would be to place every penny of the amounts provided for in the Estimates beyond the control of the Committee. Honorable members are entitled to exercise complete control over every item. The standing order which has been referred to does not relate to items on the Estimates - otherwise there could be no discussion in Supply in relation to any item. Moreover, the whole of the Estimates could be covered by one notice of motion on the business-paper, and discussion could be entirely prevented. It was never intended that the standing order should relax our control over the Estimates.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I have only the Standing Orders to guide me.. Standing order 274 is very clear. It provides -

No member shall digress from the subjectmatter of any question under discussion; nor anticipate the discussion of any other subject which appears on the notice-paper.

Notice of motion, No. 5, in the name of the honorable member for Barker, reads as follows -

That, in the opinion of this House, it is undesirable that the distinctive uniform - Kilts - in the Scottish Regiment should be abolished in connexion with the Military Forces of Australia.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Which is the same subject, and not another subject.

The CHAIRMAN:

– There is not the slightest doubt that the honorable member for Barker intended to discuss that motion in connexion with the consideration of the Estimates, but I ruled that he could not do so. Only last week, a similar question arose in this House.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– But it is quite understood that, in that matter, the Speaker was wrong.

The CHAIRMAN:

– There may be casual references to the matter, but there is nothing in the Estimates relating to the particular class of uniform referred to in the motion.

Mr. W. ELLIOT JOHNSON (Lang) (3.15]. - It is with regret that I have to move -

That the Committee dissent from the Chairman’s ruling that it is not permissible, in discussing the Estimates, to refer to a matter which is the subject of a notice of motion on the business-paper and relating to the same subject.

I take this step to protect the rights of honorable members, believing that a very serious situation has arisen. I recognise that, in order to expedite business, as well as for personal considerations, it is sometimes just as well to accept a ruling, even if we disagree with it. But the ruling just given by you, sir, affecting, as it does, the right of honorable members to discuss on the Estimates matters of administration affecting the Department to which they relate, raises a very serious question. Under your ruling, sir, the discussion of the administration and expenditure of the various Departments could be absolutely blocked by notices of motion relating to them being placed on the business-paper. That, I am sure, was never intended, and I feel confident that standing order 117 is not capable of the interpretation which you have placed upon it. Its wording is clear and explicit. The honorable member, in dealing with this question, did not attempt to move a motion, or an amendment, anticipating any motion of which notice had been given, so that standing order 117 could not possibly apply. The honorable member was merely following what has been the invariable practice - of discussing, on the first item in these Estimates, any administrative matter affecting the Department to which they relate. This is the only opportunity that we have to deal with such matters, and I submit that everything relating to the Department of Defence and its administration can be discussed on the Estimates now before us. It is not necessary that an item should be specifically mentioned in the Estimates in order that an honorable member may be allowed to deal with it. If, for instance, the Minister of Defence had, by some administrative act, brought discredit upon his Department, we should be allowed to discuss his action, although there was not on the Estimates any item relating to it. Standing order 274 deals with the question from another stand-point. It provides that -

No member shall digress from the subjectmatter of any question under discussion ; noi anticipate the discussion of any other subject which appears on the notice-paper.

The honorable member was not accused of digressing from the subject-matter under discussion, nor was he guilty of any digression. He was dealing with a question of administration, which is certainly the subject of a notice of motion on the noticepaper; but it is not “another subject” than that which is actually under consideration. It is the same subject, and, therefore, standing order 274 does not apply. In order to protest against this invasion of the right of honorable members tq discuss fully the administration of the Departments before granting Supply, I think I am justified in submitting this motion. I desire to protect the privileges of honorable members which, in this respect, have been honoured from time immemorial.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I wish to point out that the honorable member, in his notice of dissent, has set forth a ruling that I did not give. What I ruled was that an honorable member could not discuss a motion that was on the notice-paper.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– We do not wish to discuss it.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I said that a reference to it would be allowed, but that I would not allow honorable members, under cover of the Estimates, to discuss the motion of which notice had been given by the honorable member for Barker.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I am very glad to hear that.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare

– I did not propose to discuss the motion of which notice has been given by the honorable member for Barker. I desired simply to express my disapproval of the action of the Defence Department in first adopting the principle in question, and then eliminating it. The reasons given by the Department for its action do not seem to me to be sufficient to justify such a radical departure as is proposed. I trust that the honorable member for Barker will be given an opportunity to discuss his motion, and I shall then be able to discuss in detail the principle involved. In conclusion, I have only to say that I think the Minister will be well-advised in looking into the. administration of the rifle club branch of his Department. An attempt should be made to speed up the consideration of appliances for rifle ranges, and to avoid the disheartening delays that have hitherto taken place. Rifle ranges are vital to the very existence of rifle clubs, and by their speedy provision a greater impetus will be given to this side of the defence movement. I also hope that the Department will consider the advisableness of establishing, either companies of the Australian Light Horse, or bush squads in country districts, where the very best material can be obtained. In both these directions, I think that the Department has unexplored possibilities for effective and efficient defence, which, with the exercise of a little common sense, can be developed and made invaluable tor the security of Australia.

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

.- At this late hour of the session, I do not propose to trespass upon the patience of honorable members by entering into anything of the nature of an exhaustive study of the Defence Estimates. It is unfortunate that the Estimates should be so late in coming before us, because, at no time in the history of any section of our race, has it been so urgently necessary as it is today, to earnestly inquire into the basis of our racial security. I have in my hand perhaps one of the most important official documents ever issued by any British Department. I refer to the memorandum published b,y the British Admiralty in connexion with the recent Canadian proposals. It is a memorandum which, in its bare recital of facts, shows that the old traditional idea that has guided our counsels and formed the basis of our local defence considerations, is disappearing, and that, in all human probability, unless the problem be earnestly grappled with by every section of our race, it will disappear for all time. I refer to the basis of British Naval supremacy which has so far been accepted as axiomatic in connexion with all our defence schemes, both naval and military. I do not propose to canvass this memorandum. I shall simply draw the attention of the Committee to one sentence in it. After quoting the extraordinary expansion of German naval strength and the recent phenomenal increase in the readiness for war of the German Navy, the Admiralty, in the second part of that document, says -

At the present time, and in the immediate future, Great Britain still has the power, by making special arrangements and mobilizing st portion of the reserves, to send, without court. ing disaster at home, an effective fleet of battleships and cruisers to unite with the Royal Australian Navy and the British Squadrons in China and the Pacific for the defence of British Columbia, Australia, and New Zealand.

That sentence ought to be most earnestly considered by every Australian patriot.: It is only at the present time and in the immediate future “that Great Britain will have this power. In the past, we have been assured by every British Government and by the Admiralty officials that they would make themselves responsible for the defence of Australia against foreign aggression. But now we have an intimation that owing to the force of naval competition they will not, outside the immediate future, be in a position to guarantee the defence of the oversea Dominions. The position is so serious that, for my part, I regret that these Estimates have been presented so late in the session that they will have to be passed without . adequate consideration being given to the enormous issue with which we are confronted. In my judgment, the naval memorandum to which I have referred shows conclusively that this German Naval Force is being created with one object - to realize the oversea ambitions of Germany, and probably to gain command of the sea.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is certainly challenging the position of the British Empire.

Mr KELLY:

– It is doing a great deal more than that. The statement contained in the preamble of the German Act of 1900 reads -

In order to protect German trade and commerce under existing conditions, only one thing will suffice, namely, Germany must possess a battle fleet of such a strength that even for the most powerful naval adversary a war would involve such risks as to make that Power’s own supremacy doubtful. For this purpose it is not absolutely necessary that the German Fleet should be as strong as that of the greatest Naval Power, for, as a rule, a great Naval Power will not be in a position to concentrate all its forces against us.

Thus the German Government are absolutely counting upon the parochial influences which operate in Australia and the other oversea Dominions preventing the combination for effective action of the naval energies of the British people.

Mr Thomas Brown:

– It must be admitted that the German authorities repudiate any hostile attitude towards Great Britain.

Mr KELLY:

– Let us inquire into this subject. We all know that in these days Governments are swayed by public opinion.

What steps have recently been taken to sway public opinion in Germany ? I have in mind a pamphlet, which was not only issued broadcast throughout that country, but which was actually bought by the German people. That pamphlet contained two maps. It showed a map of the world on the date of its issue, and a map of the world in 1915. In the first map, the British Possessions throughout the world were coloured red, and in the second were shown the countries among which the British Empire had been parcelled up. Australia and New Zealand had apparently been given to Japan, Canada had been absorbed by the United States, and South Africa and Egypt had been taken possession of by Germany. The desire underlying that attempt to form German public opinion was an alliance between Germany and Japan for the destruction of the British Empire. We know that, for reasons which it is not necessary to discuss now, the Anglo- Japanese alliance has been happily renewed’, and Germany has answered its renewal by making still greater efforts in the direction of naval expansion - efforts involving an increase of 35,000 in the personnel of the navy during the past year. These facts speak stronger than do the words of German statesmen. They speak for themselves. And the Australian public must recognise that this country stands to sink or swim with the same Power which gave it birth, and with the same force which alone can maintain it - the sea strength of the British people. Even in the absence of a desire on the part of Germany to occupy Australia - and it is admitted that she desires territorial aggrandisement - without sending a man or a ship nearer to Australia than the English Channel, Germany could bring this country practically to the verge of bankruptcy. Australians are an exporting people, and half our population depend upon the maintenance of existing markets oversea for their livelihood. It will be found that about 98 per cent. of the wool we produce is consumed oversea.

Mr Thomas Brown:

– Germany is a very good customer of ours.

Mr KELLY:

– And, no doubt, she would like to be in a still better position to decide how much of our products we should send her. About 85 or 86 per cent. of our gold and silver production finds its market oversea, and, roughly speaking, about one-half of our dairying products find their market there. Now, if those who are engaged in these industries failed to find a market for their commodities, they would cease to receive payment for them, and the great cities of this continent, which live on the back country, would be on the verge of financial ruin. That would be the result of any hold-up of our oversea trade. That hold-up might be effected by Germany in the North Sea with less effort than would be involved at any other place this side of Suez.

I am afraid that I have been led into dealing more comprehensively with this question than I intended to do. But apart from the naval problem, the admission which has been made by the Admiralty compels us to take count of our land defences. If honorable members will take a common-sense view of our position, they will realize that, should the command of the sea pass from Great Britain, the integrity of our territory could not in any circumstances be guaranteed by the Australian people. Why ? For the simple reason that military distance and geographical distance are two distinct things. Military distance is assessed by the difficulty that is experienced in traversing it. It is as difficult to send military supplies over 100 miles by land as it is to carry on similar operations over 5,000 miles of sea. Take, for instance, a strategic railway to the Northern Territory. Gauged by the long distance charges levied on our railway systems, the minimum cost of sending a ton of material from Sydney to Port Darwin would be about £5, whereas the cost of sending a ton of material by sea from Japan to the Northern Territory would be about 10s. Which country would have the better chance of winning? A well -organized community of 40,000,000 people, with communication facilities which work out at 10s. per ton, or a scattered population of 4,000,000, with communication facilities which work’ out at per ton? It would, therefore, be impossible for Australia to contest with any foreigner the occupation of any portion of our mainland, with the exception of the south-eastern portion of this continent.

As the Admiralty memorandum indicates the possibility of our being cut off from oversea assistance, I want to direct honorable members’ attention to the necessity to take stock of our military position, with a view to deciding whether the material which at present must be imported is adequate for all our possible requirements.

– The facts were known in the inner circles.

Mr FENTON:

– That might be; but? there is no need for us to make such admissions. I join issue with the honorable member for Wentworth when he says that Australia to-day is in no better position, from the defence point of view, than she was two or three years ago. It seems scarcely possible that any honorable member could make such a statement, when we. a mere handful of people, have an annual defence expenditure of £5,500,000. In the establishment of factories, in the creation of our citizen soldiery, and an Australian Navy, we make a most effective contribution towards the defences of the Empire. All this has evoked almost the admiration of the world ; and, therefore, in my opinion, this criticism goes by the board. It is quite true, as the honorable member says, that an army is not built up by marches past; but if the honorable member goes into any of our parks or open spaces on a Saturday afternoon, he will see thousands: of our youths being trained in a fashion which will fit them to be good defenders of the nation in the near future. The Government have done splendidly, and, so far from being deserving of adverse criticism, they should be commended.

I am surprised at two or three lines in a report which has been circulated relating to the Cordite Factory. We are told -

The Cordite Factory is at present engaged in experimental and proof work, but will shortly, it is expected, be in a position to turn out cordite for the use of the Forces.

I do not know the exact date of that report ; but I understood some months ago that cordite of our own manufacture was being used at the ammunition factory for the cartridges distributed to the Defence Forces.

It is a peculiar commentary on the situation to hear the honorable member for Wentworth complaining of what the Government have not done, in face of the fact that, only a little while ago, he and others were criticising the Government for establishing Commonwealth factories. In my opinion, the. Cordite Factory, the Small Arms Factory, the Harness Factory, the Clothing Factory, and the Woollen Factory are going to prove a very important development in our defence scheme.

I am a firm believer in rifle clubs, and I trust that the Honorary Minister will pay serious attention to the comments that have been made by honorable members on both sides. On 30th June, 1911, there were 55,400 members of rifle clubs, whereas, on 30th June, 1912, they had decreased to 50,615, a difference on the wrong side of nearly 5,000. this discloses a very serious position; and I hope that the Government will not only provide the necessary money for ranges and equipment, but will see that that money is spent to the best possible service*

One of the best moves that has ever been made in the British Navy is that to increase the pay of men on the warships. In the past in the Navy, as well as in the mercantile marine, sufficient monetary inducement has not been held out to cause desirable men to take up a life on the sea. In Australia, I notice a disinclination, when we employ men to carry out certain works in the Defence Department, to pay them even the money provided by law. For instance, men temporarily employed in the Stores Branch of the Ordnance Department are receiving less than they ought to under the Public Service Act and regulations ; and, no doubt, similar complaints could be made in regard to other branches. As to the heads of the Military Forces and the Navy, and superior officers generally, an increase in salary has only to be suggested to be granted, whereas men who do some of the most important work lower down the ladder have to make request after request before being listened to, although they, to a large extent, are subject to the Public Service Commissioner, and their rates of remuneration are provided under the Public Service Act. I wish to draw the special attention of the Minister to this complaint.

I hope that every possible encouragement will be given to rifle clubs, in the shape of the provision of ranges, and the supply of ammunition and rifles; and that this time twelve months, instead of mourning a decline in the membership, we shall be able to congratulate ourselves on a substantial increase.

Mr GORDON:
Boothby

.- There are only three points to which I desire to direct the attention of the Minister. There is much that is fascinating in these Estimates, but this is not the time to yield to the temptation to make long speeches, even on subjects in which we have taken a special interest. I do not ask the Minister to pay any particular attention to anything I may say, from my point of view, concerning such an intricate and difficult Department, but I should like him to realize that what

I am about to lay before him is due to representations that have been fairly made to me. Some feeling has been caused amongst officers and men of the Intelligence Corps, who have made a special study of topography work, by the importation of four men of the Royal Engineers of England into South Australia, for the purpose of making surveys and military maps. These men feel that, while no doubt from a military point of view they may have much to learn, as surveyors they could not be taught very much about the work of map-making, and that they might very well have been intrusted with the preparation of a map of their own country. The success of our compulsory system will very largely depend upon our Area Officers, and I consider that, particularly in some of the larger districts, ^150 is not sufficient pay for the men who are engaged in the delicate and trying work of inaugurating the system. Possibly some of the Area Officers in the city and suburbs would be well paid at £I 50, but where they have to travel over long distances, I think they should receive some special consideration. A friend of mine has directed special attention to the fact that under the regulations of the Imperial Army and Navy, and also under the Army Regulations of Germany and France, it is obligatory that the members of the Forces shall learn to swim. I think we might very well follow this example, both in regard to our Naval Cadets and the boys who are connected with our Field Forces. These are the only points to which I desire to direct attention. I trust the Minister will take a note of them, and that full regard will be paid to the interests of both officers and men.

Mr FINLAYSON:
Brisbane

.- No Department in the Public Service is more capable of the subject of criticism than the Defence Department ; and I, cannot conceive of anything more antagonistic to the Australian’s love of freedom than our present compulsory military system, and I offer my strongest objection to some of the acts associated with the administration of the Defence Department. I regard war as the last resort, and cannot but look with horror upon the preparations we are making in connexion with naval and military matters. I am quite aware that our military system is designed purely for defensive purposes, and that is the only good feature about it. I wish to offer a few observations in the way of friendly criticism. I was a member of a deputation which was recently introduced to the Minister of Defence by the honorable member for Maribyrnong. The deputation asked that the Minister should arrange for instructional lectures by medical experts upon physical diseases, and that these lectures should be delivered to the cadets at the statutory parades. Some strong statements were then made as to the necessity of taking advantage of the opportunities offered by these military parades to make our young men acquainted with some of the real dangers that dog the steps of every army, and I wish to place on record my appreciation of the action of the Minister in consenting to arrange for the delivery of these lectures, so that the boys may be warned against the most insidious and serious diseases that threaten the young manhood of this country. I particularly wish to say a few words in reference to a matter upon which I addressed questions to the Minister of Defence on 6th November last. The questions were as follow : -

Whether he considers that sufficient provision is being made in the Australian military system for- efficient treatment and care of the wounded, should we ever, unfortunately, be involved in war?
As experience has shown that in all wars an excessive number of deaths result from diseases consequent on lack of suitable hospital and nursing arrangements, will he inform the House as to what provision is being made to effectively care for the sick among the Australian Forces in time of war?
Has he considered the matter of compulsorily and sufficiently training the young women of the Commonwealth in first aid and hospital nursing to enable them to render good service to their country in this direction in time of war?

And these were the answers : -

Yes.
1. The following provision has been made : -
1. Light Horse Field Ambulance for each Light Horse Brigade.
2. Field Ambulance for each Infantry

Brigade.

Regimental medical personnel for the respective regiments and corps.
Army Medical Corps Reserve.
Army Nursing Service.
Voluntary Aid (scheme of organization under consideration).
Hospitals - military and civil.
1. Compulsory training of young women for nursing is not considered necessary.

I am interested to. notice that an increased amount of £2,724 is put down to make better provision for the staff instructors who will be required for duty in connexion with the Army Medical Corps. I find by the memorandum which has been issued to honorable members that last year there were 900 men on the staff of the Army Medical Corps, and that it is proposed to increase this number to 1,398 during the year. This is a highly satisfactory provision, so far as it goes. But during the last week or two I have been brought face to face with some startling facts and figures with respect to the care of the sick and wounded in time of war, and the fearful ravages made by disease, and I wish to place on record my appreciation of the very pressing necessity for incurring an even larger expenditure in the direction I have indicated. It is well known that behind every army - indeed, with every army - there stalks an unseen foe. The greatest danger to which soldiers are exposed is that which arises, not from the offensive operations of the enemy, but from disease. Whilst it is interesting to hear honorable members expatiate on the arrangements we are making for the destruction of life, it is highly important that we should pay special attention to the saving of life. Sickness seems to be an inevitable attendant on every army that takes the field. In 1889 the celebrated Russian writer, I. S. Bloch, wrote a book entitled Is War now Impossible, and, although I was unable to agree with the deductions of that writer, I was startled by the figures quoted showing the serious ravages of disease in time of war. He gives the following particulars in tabular form -

The small proportion of deaths from disease in the German Army during the Franco-Prussian War is attributed to the fact that the campaign was a short one and the army was in close proximity to its base and its hospitals. The records show that the average loss from sickness is four times greater than the average loss from wounds. I was able also to obtain the statistics in regard to the Boer War, in which we were more immediately concerned. Honorable members will recollect that a Royal Commission was appointed by the Imperial Government to inquire into certain state. ments with regard to the care of the sick and wounded during that campaign. The Commission, in their report, make some startling statements. The statistics from the commencement of the war 6th October, 1899, until 27th July, 1900, show that, exclusive of casualties in action, the deaths recorded were - officers 155, men 5,122, or a total of 5,277. The invalided officers numbered 1,016, whilst the men who were invalided numbered 16,127, or a total of 17,143. The total number of men incapacitated for active service during the period was - officers 1,171, men 21,249, or a total of 22,420. One only needs to look at these figures to realize the disadvantage at which we should be placed in time of war if our medical arrangements were inadequate for the proper care of the sick and wounded. We have to consider, not only the number of men whom we should lose in action, but the number who would be incapacitated by sickness. During the American- Spanish war, thousands of men died who had never reached the firing line. The records of that war afford some of the most painful and pathetic reading that could be imagined. The absolutely cruel and inhuman inefficiency, and the want of preparation shown in connexion with the medical arrangements, were an outrage to our civilization. Here is a further statement in regard to the Boer war -

Sick in hospitals - exclusive of Natal : - December, 2,380; January, 2,834; February, 3,828; March, 6,107; April, 9,215; May, 10,856; June, 10,757 ; July, 9,545.

Those figures afford another illustration of the fearful havoc wrought by sickness in time of war. That we have not made much progress in this respect is shown by the news of the Balkan war that has recently filtered through. The Sydney Sun of the 18th ultimo published a telegram stating that -

Disease is decimating the Turkish ranks. It is estimated that last week 10,000 victims were rendered non-combatants as a result of various ills.

In the Argus of the 19th inst. it was reported that there were 1,000 victims dying daily from cholera, whilst the Melbourne Herald of 22nd ult. contained the following statement -

The Daily Telegraph war correspondent with the Turkish Forces which are defending the Tchataldja lines, paints a horrifying picture of the cholera outbreak at the front. He describes the square at Hademkoi, near Tchataldja, as resembling a fly paper after having been exposed for some time. It is covered with corpses and writhing bodies. Some are sitting or kneeling, while others still alive lie prone. The dead are piled in heaps in some places, and stretcherbearers are constantly bringing fresh victims from the camps and forts. All the tracks leading to the impromptu morgue are dotted with bodies.

Is there not another side to the picture? One nation - I refer to Japan - has given the world an object-lesson in regard to the provision of medical aid for its soldiers. I would commend to honorable members a book entitled The Real Triumph of Japan, by Louis L. Seaman, which is to be found in the Parliamentary Library. The author, who is an American, points out in a very spirited manner that the Japanese, in preparing for war with Russia, made special provision for the treatment of their sick and wounded; and the figures that he supplies in regard to that war show that something can easily be done to remedy the shocking abuses that occurred during the Boer war. Some of the particulars relating to the treatment of the sick and wounded during the Boer war are sufficient to bring a blush of shame to the face of the reader. I shall quote only one extract from a statement given by a witness who appeared before the Commission to which I have referred. Writing” from Capetown, the special Correspondent of the London Times reported -

From morning to night the gloomy processions followed each other across the Market Square at slow march with arms reversed, bearing shapeless figures sewed up in blankets to unknown crowded graves in the cemetery on the southern hill, day after day’ and week after week in evergrowing numbers. How many of these might to-day be strong men, full of life, rejoicing at their near return to home and friends is a terrible speculation, which must be left to those who consider the conditions attending their sickness and death.

Throughout the report of the Commission it is shown that witness after witness attributed the trouble that arose in regard to the treatment of the sick and wounded to the utter inelasticity of the medical arrangements, their failure to allow of prompt attention being given, and the ready acceptance of offers of help for the sick and wounded. Professor Dunlop, in giving evidence, said -

If I were asked what seemed to me to be the defects of the Medical Department of the Army, Y should reply as follows : -

The Queen’s Regulations hamper prompt and energetic action in times of difficulty. However suitable they may be in times of peace and in barracks they do not admit of rapid extension in time of war, and in such a war as we have had in Southern Africa.

It has to be kept in view that the war was thought to be one that would soon be over, and only a very small provision was made for sick and wounded, and when pressure upon the hospital accommodation and equipment in the way of supply of nurses, doctors, &c, became imminent, some of the heads of the Medical Department at the base not being familiar with the advances of modern surgery, and not gifted with the experience and forethought and judgment necessary for men occupying such important positions, it is not be wondered at if there was inaction, delay, and even blundering in the early administration of the hospital systems of the Army in times of war.

The Commission reported -

In this war, at any rate, at its commencement, some members of the Royal Army Medical Corps appear to have had a difficulty in divesting themselves of the old traditions of the service, which are undoubtedly antagonistic to the employment of nurses in military hospitals. For example, we find that when the Langman private hospital arrived in South Africa, its principal medical officer applied to the authorities for the assistance of nurses, but his application was refused, though ultimately nurses were supplied to it when it arrived at Bloemfontein. This prejudice, however, has long since ceased to operate in the care of the sick and wounded in South Africa.

The nurses employed in this war have shown great devotion, and many have lost their lives in the discharge of their duties. Scarcely any complaints have been made during this campaign with regard to the nurses. The soldiers have much appreciated their services, and seem to prefer to be attended by them to being attended to by orderlies. But, bearing in mind the ordinary conditions of a military hospital, we think that it will always be necessary, even in fixed hospitals, and in suitable wards, that .the employment of nurses should be supplemented by that of properly-trained orderlies.

This brings me to the point that I wish to emphasize, namely, that whilst we are making preparation for taking life, we ought to be more active in our preparations for saving the lives of our men who may have to go to the front. It is too late to take such action when war has broken out. It would be criminal on our part to repeat the inaction and delay, and the want of elasticity, shown in connexion with the medical arrangements for the care of the sick and the wounded during the Boer war, and which lost to the Empire so many brave men. The Japanese say, in regard to their wounded on the hospital ships -

We have the most precious cargo here that the world can imagine. We must hurry home with all speed, so that not one of its parts may suffer the least damage on the way. Give us free road. Here come the nation’s greatest treasures, the sick and wounded.

I dread the outbreak of war in Australia more because of the dangers of sickness than because of the dangers from battle. Having regard to their mobility and adaptability, Australian’ soldiers can be well trusted to take care of themselves and to look after the enemy in time of war. But those of us who have noticed at times the inefficient character of the hospital and sanitary accommodation in our military camps cannot but dread the possibility of our having not only to defend our coasts but to prepare for the attendant danger of sickness to our men.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Relatively to our numbers, I do not think there is anything better in the world than our little Army Medical Corps.

Mr FINLAYSON:

– I do not think that the honorable member was present when I referred to the commendable increase in the Army Medical Corps. The point that I wish to make, however, is that that corps in itself is not sufficient. The report of the Commission which inquired into the South African war proved that, unless supported by some efficient system of voluntary aid, every medical arrangement made for the care of the sick and wounded breaks down. Why was Japan able to show such a splendid record in respect of the treatment of its sick and wounded in connexion with its war with Russia? I find that the Japanese in then* war with China, in 1894, lost three from disease, as against one from bullets, with 45 per cent, suffering from beri-beri. In the War with Russia, from February, 1904, to May, 1903, 52,946 were killed or died from wounds, while the deaths from all diseases totalled only 11,922. There we have a complete reversal of the records of every other war concerning which we have any figures. As is pointed out by Mr. Louis Seaman, there were more than four deaths from bullets to one from disease, as against the record of centuries of four from disease to one from bullets, or 8,003 better than the average history. Only 1 2-ioths per cent, of the entire army died of sickness or disease, and only lj per cent, died of gunshot wounds, although 24 per cent, were wounded; 2,000 more men died from wounds than from preventible diseases; and of a total mortality of 64,938 from all causes there were 40,954 more from casualties than from disease. The secret of this success may be readily ascertained. Japan has a number of auxiliary societies. The Japanese Red Cross Society has branches in every city or town, with a total membership of 1,250,000. It is stated that -

Organized strictly as an auxiliary, it is transferred bodily to the army in time of war. . . . It becomes a part of the army’s Medical Department. . . The society had 3,85a nurses, men and women. . . 2,628 of whom were females employed exclusively in hospitals and other home stations where sick and wounded need attention. . . Excellent work was also done by the Nursing Association, which is allied to the Red Cross Society and which the princesses and the wives of the nobles and the diplomatic staffs joined freely.

I wish again to impress on the Minister of Defence the urgent necessity for the immediate establishment of an effective system of aid for the sick and wounded secured by voluntary effort, or preferably by the compulsory training of the young women of Australia to act as nurses in time of war. I read in last Thursday’s issue of the Herald an interesting article, in which a number of authorities spoke of the beneficial effect which military training was having upon our young men. If compulsory nursing, first-aid, and ambulance training were given to the young women of this country, I am sure that they, too, would be immensely benefited. If compulsory military training has led to the better discipline of our boys, and has raised their moral tone, I am confident that the compulsory training of our young women in firstaid and ambulance work would also be immensely beneficial to them. What an advantage it would be to Australia if our young women were trained in this way. When they married, and became the mothers of our families, spreading all over the Continent of Australia, the knowledge they had thus acquired would be of immense advantage in case of ordinary sickness in time of peace, as well as in time of war. Hundreds of lives in Australia might be saved if the women who had passed through first-aid training periods were able to apply the knowledge thus gained to those accidents, diseases, and troubles which arise so frequently and so unexpectedly. The saving of life thus effected would be well worth the expenditure that would be involved, and I believe that the young women of this country are just as anxious to exhibit their patriotism in this direction as our young men are to defend it against foreign aggression. We have not in this country the voluntary military system which obtains in England and other parts of the world. But that system in the Army is breaking down, and we have recognised that by placing upon every citizen the responsibility of defending this country ; and I can conceive of nothing which would appeal to the higher instincts of the women of Australia more than would an opportunity to stand by their brothers who do the fighting, by nursing them through the sickness and trouble which inevitably attend marching operations.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– The honorable member for Brisbane has referred to a very important matter indeed. But may I suggest to him that unless he looks into these cases on their merits, he is very liable to be misled. The honorable member has quoted figures to show the great difference which obtains between the number of deaths that occurred from wounds and sickness in the Japanese war against China, and the number that resulted from similar causes in the RussoJapanese war. He ought to know that that difference arises from a very simple fact, namely, that in the former war operations were conducted in a more leisurely way. In the conflict with Russia the Japanese could not afford to wait. They had to hurl their legions against the foe in the quickest possible time. Their resources would not permit them to wait, or to take extra precautions for the preservation of their lives. That is why there are a greater proportion of deaths from wounds and a less proportion of deaths from sickness in the war with Russia than in the war with China. This factor, I am afraid, will operate more and more in modern wars. Those wars are so costly that they must be finished quickly, otherwise they will bankrupt the nations which engage in them. For that reason we shall not see so much finessing in future wars as there has been, although, of course, there will always be room for strategy and tactics. The same result will probably be found in connexion with the

Mr West:

– This sort of sophistry is not much good to the man who is not receiving an increase.

Mr ROBERTS:

– I am sorry that the honorable member should regard my statement as something in the nature of sophistry. No doubt, the fact that Justices of the High Court receive £3,000 a year is very little consolation to the man who is working with his pick and shovel for only 8s. a day. I do not wish to bring my illustration nearer home, but doubtless there are many persons in Australia who are not being remunerated, at all events in the shape of a cash equivalent, for their labours to the same degree as appertains to political service. I am confident that the increases which the Minister has granted have been well considered, and, in the circumstances, are justifiable. My attention has been called to items in the Estimates suggesting increases in pay, where, in reality, no increase has been made. The fact that in respect of one office £600 or £700 is being expended this year, as compared with £550 last year, does not necessarily mean that an increase of salary has been granted. It merely means that the services in question were not continuous, and that the whole of the salary available for the office was, therefore, not used. There have been increases in the lower grades, and further increases will be paid to many of the noncommissioned officers as soon as these Estimates are passed. I feel confident that from year to year, if anomalies as to pay are made plain, the Minister will take the earliest opportunity of rectifying them.

I desire now to refer to the complaints of delay in the construction of rifle ranges, and the unfounded allegation that the permanent officers as a body are not over-sympathetic with our rifle-club men.

Mr Mcwilliams:

– It is correct.

Mr ROBERTS:

– That impetuous statement does not do the honorable member credit. It is based on mere supposition. The honorable member may suppose <what he pleases; but if his supposition takes the form of a reflection upon persons employed in the Federal Service it is scarcely fair.

Mr Mcwilliams:

– Are the permanent officers sympathetic with the rifle clubs?

Mr ROBERTS:

– Speaking as one who keenly appreciates our Citizen Forces, and who believes that they must be our defenders in the future, the small Permanent Force simply discharging administrative and instructional duties, I do not hesitate to say that in my opinion there is no feeling against the Militia on the part of the permanent officers. I have the very greatest admiration for our riflemen, and for the services which they freely and cheerfully render in perfecting themselves in a branch of defence that will be most useful should we be called upon to protect ourselves. After careful investigation, I do not believe that there exists on the part of our permanent officers any want of sympathy with th’e rifle club movement. Let me say at once that if it came under my notice that a permanent officer, no matter what his rank, displayed a want of sympathy in that direction, I should use to the very utmost whatever influence I possessed to secure his removal from office. The establishment of rifle clubs, and the encouragement of riflemen to perfect themselves as marksmen, is part of the policy of Australia, and it would not do for any permanent officer to set himself in opposition to it. As a citizen, he may vote as he pleases; but if, as a permanent officer, he set himself against the established policy of the country, drastic action would be necessary, and I am sure that it would be taken by the Minister. Much difficulty unfortunately exists in increasing the number of our rifle ranges. In the first place, the great ‘ increase in our Forces has necessitated a great increase in the number of targets and ranges. Rifle ranges are called into use more frequently than was previously the case, and riflemen have undoubtedly had to submit to some little inconvenience. In securing ranges and erecting targets many difficulties are experienced, and these are just as annoying and as disconcerting to the Minister and the Department as they are to honorable members generally. I wish to’ assure the Committee that neither the Minister nor his Department has been guilty of any intentional delay. There is no attempt to wilfully delay the provision of ranges, but countless difficulties are encountered in meeting the demand for them. For instance, a number of men form a club, and that club is approved and established. It then writes to the Department and asks for a range. The next question is where that range shall be secured, and the difficulty is to find a convenient piece of ground for the purpose. After a suitable area has been found, difficulties often occur in acquiring it. In New South Wales, for instance, we have to appeal to the Minister of Lands, who, perhaps, finds himself helpless in the matter. He in turn has to appeal to some such body as the Pastoral Board, which in turn may have to appeal to some such institution as the Rabbit Destruction League, and so forth. These difficulties having been surmounted, we have to obtain the permission of the local council to fire over a particular area. I frankly admit that at times a difference of opinion occurs between the Department and the owners of land thought to be suitable for rifle range purposes. That difficulty has to be surmounted before the range can be established. It is scarcely fair to expect that because a man believing that he has the Government in the hollow of his hand, asks £100 for a block worth only £50, the Department should say, “ Very well, take what you want.” However anxious we may be to establish rifle ranges, we must have regard for the responsibility attaching to the expenditure of public moneys. I am confident that the Minister and his department are anxious to facilitate the work of the rifle clubs by providing rifle ranges and targets with the utmost speed ; and whilst annoying delays have occurred, I am hopeful that there will be less friction in the future. In some instances these delays are absolutely unavoidable. I do not know that there are any other points to which honorable members have referred-

Mr Joseph Cook:

– The honorable member has not yet dealt with the matter of abnormal expenditure, or the discrepancy between the normal and present expenditure.

Mr Fenton:

– In other words, the honorable member refers to the difference between Lord Kitchener’s estimate and the amount that we are asked to vote.

Mr ROBERTS:

– It does not follow that Lord Kitchener’s estimates necessarily define the actual expenditure to be incurred each year. In general, the scheme laid down by the Field Marshal is being followed with such modification or altera tions as circumstances demand, or local requirements make essential. Lord Kitchener’s estimate is not to be regarded as necessarily controlling the Defence Estimates each year. As I understand them, the facts are set out in detail in the Estimates, and every increase is clearly shown. The Minister of Defence has also distributed a memorandum in which he deals with the principal increases that are under consideration. Perhaps a perusal of that document will meet the requirements of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 39 (Special School of Instruction), £11,800; division 40 (Physical Training Staff), £8,332 ; division 41 (Aviation School), £5,600; division 42 (School of Musketry), £3,050; division 43 (Royal Military College), £38,313; division 44 (Chemical Adviser), £2,014; and division 45 (Examination of stores and equipment), £3,982, agreed to.

Division 46 (Cordite Factory), £21,000.-

Mr MCWILLIAMS:
Franklin

.- Will the Minister representing the Minister of Defence give the Committee some explanation of the position occupied by the Cordite Factory to-day?

Mr ROBERTS:
Honorary Minister · Adelaide · ALP

– The Cordite Factory is not yet supplying ammunition for actual use by our Defence Forces, but it will be doing so within the course of a few weeks. Up to the present the work done at the factory has been largely of an experimental character.

.- I wish to point out the necessity which exists for erecting some kind of dock in the vicinity of Hobart. In my own electorate, at Smelting Works Bay there is an ideal site for a dockyard. In the centre of a magnificent harbor there is a landlocked bay, in which, for a very small expenditure, a dock could be constructed to accommodate any ship coming to Australia, and especially our war-ships. I think that this matter was brought forward last year by the honorable member for Denison. Anybody who is familiar with the A B C of naval matters will recognise that there ought to be some kind of dock here in which our war-ships can be repaired. I trust that the Minister will impress upon the Minister of Defence the necessity of giving immediate and earnest consideration to this question.

Mr ROBERTS:
Honorary Minister · Adelaide · ALP

– I can assure the honorable member that I will bring the matter under the direct notice of the Minister.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 55 (Royal Australian Naval Reserve), £62,828; division 56 (Imperial Royal Naval Reserve), £2,500; division 56a (Uniform, Clothing, and Necessaries Account), £25,500; division 57 (Medical Services), £4,500; division 58 (Signal Stations and Examination Services), £2,000 ; division 59 (Maintenance of Ships and Vessels), £250,000; division 60 (Repair and Maintenance of Naval Works,&c), £4,000; division 61 (Miscellaneous Services), £13,500; and division 62 (Postage and Telegrams), £1,000; agreed to.

Department of Home Affairs.

Division 97 (Administrative Staff),

£23,795.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister of Home Affairs · Darwin · ALP

– I wish to make a short statement to the Committee of the causes of the increases in this Department. On reference to page 147 of the Estimates it will be seen that the net increase in the cost of the Department for the current financial year over the actual cost for the year 1911-12 is £11,738. Included in that sum are increments to salaries, both automatic and those provided on the recommendation of the Public Service Commissioner, £1,753, leaving a balance of only , £9,983 of increase. The amount proposed to be expended before the 30th June next on works and buildings, acquisition of land, and other services under the control of the Department, exclusive of the construction of the trans-Australian railway, is £2,188,316. The actual expenditure during the financial year 1911-12 was £921,220, the expenditure now proposed showing an increase of £1,267,096. So that while there is an increase in the estimated expenditure upon works, land, and other services of , £1,267,096, the extra net cost of the Department is only £9,983, exclusive of increments to salaries. The net increased cost, namely, £9,983, is accounted for principally by the provision in these Estimates for permanent positions in the Lands and Survey Branch. This branch is charged with the acquisition and leasing of properties for public purposes, and matters incidental thereto. The work, involving an expenditure of enormous sums of money, and being necessarily of a very important and responsible character, has been hitherto carried on by temporary assistance, and it is considered that these duties should be undertaken by officers with a permanent status. Comparing the actual expenditure for the year 1910-11 with that of 1911-12, there is an increase in the latter year of £180,617. Comparing the actual expenditure Tor the year 1910-11 with the estimated expenditure for 1912-13, there is an increase in the latter of .£1,447,713- So that, while the Department is undertaking the larger responsibility involving the increased expenditure, the extra cost of administration is proportionately small.

Mr FOWLER:
Perth

.- 1 regret that it is my duty to revert to a matter that I have already discussed in the House - the appointment of Mr. Henry Chinn to supervise the construction of the transAustralian railway on the Western Australian side. I do so because, having commented on the singular fact that in a batch of testimonials submitted in Mr. Chinn’ s favour there was not one of a technical character, some four months later the deficiency was supplied, or professed to be supplied, by certain testimonials that were published to the country and certain statements were made in connexion with them. I shall briefly discuss the position thus created. Any one who looks carefully at those testimonials will agree that they have much in common. No doubt all testimonials have family features, but in those to which I refer these features are very much more pronounced than was to be expected in productions by different people, written at different times. These testimonials are all characterized by the same extravagant adjectives, the same ponderous sentences, and the same exaggerated tone of praise. This is somewhat singular, as they are alleged to have been written by level-headed, practical, business men, some of whom possess only the ordinary educational acquirements, and would disclaim ability to write any remarkable literary production. The information that I am about to put before the Committee was not sought by me in any special sense, but, to a large extent, has been supplied. After I criticised Mr. Chinn’s appointment, a considerable number of communications were sent to me which I could not make public until I had verified, to my own satisfaction, the statements that they contained, but having made the necessary inquiries, I propose to give the result to the Committee. My observations will be specially directed to those testimonials upon which particular emphasis has been laid as giving that force to the application of Mr. Chinn which it previously lacked. The first which I wish to read is from’ Messrs. Garnsworthy and Smith, contractors. It is dated “ Collinsstreet west, Melbourne, 14th August, 1898,” and is as follows -

Dear Sir, -

At your request, we have much pleasure in committing to paper our appreciation of the valuable services rendered by you as our engineer in connexion with various contracts carried out by us under the Public Works and Railway Departments and Melbourne Harbor Trust.

The construction of the new entrance to the Gippsland Lakes was a work that necessitated more than the ordinary amount of foresight and skill, and we are confident the successful issue was only brought about by the untiring energy and exceptional ability displayed by you.

So much’ were we impressed with you on the above works that we determined to engage you on all future contracts, and, in every instance-, for a period of about eleven years, your professional knowledge on all classes of works proved invaluable to us.

It would be hard to single out any particular branch of engineering to eulogize you on, for you are equally familiar with harbor and river works, sewerage, and railway construction, and as the sewerage works of Melbourne were some of the most difficult ever carried out in Australia, the successful issue you brought our contracts to demands the highest praise from us.

We trust your career will be a prosperous one, and feel confident, if the opportunities only present themselves, you will do full justice to your office and continue to earn further distinction in your profession.

Faithfully yours,

Garnsworthy & Smith,

Contractors.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Is that one of the testimonials referred to by the Minister?

Mr FOWLER:

– No ; it is a testimonial that was subsequently made public by a supporter of the Minister to make up, I presume, the deficiency upon which I had commented. Previously, no testimonial certifying to Mr. Chinn’s technical qualification had been made public.

Mr King O’Malley:

– I hired him on what I knew about him myself. I did not ask for any testimonials.

Mr FOWLER:

– The testimonial which I have read is a very fine one, beautifully worded, and highly eulogistic. If it correctly states the facts, the person who carried out so successfully the work mentioned in it is entitled to all the praise that can be bestowed upon him. The making of an entrance to the Gippsland Lakes was an undertaking of considerable magniture and difficulty, which occupied many years, and cost the State of Victoria an immense sum of money. If we had secured, for the work of constructing the trans-Australian railway, the gentleman responsible for the success of the Gippsland Lakes Entrance, we should have done very well for ourselves. But I was not altogether satisfied of the correctness of the statements in the testimonial, and, having had some indication of the direction in which to investigate, I made a few inquiries. For instance, I asked the Government of Victoria what was the nature of the work carried out by Messrs. Garnsworthy and Smith in connexion with the making of the Gippsland Lakes Entrance ; whether they had been, as we are given to understand in the testimonial, the contractors for practically the whole of that work; and whether, under them, Mr. Chinn carried it to a successful issue. This is the letter which I received from the Secretary to the Department of Public Works, Victoria, in reply to my inquiries - 29th November, 1912.

Sir,

With reference to your further inquiries in the matter, I beg to inform you that the amount expended to date at the Gippsland Lakes Entrance is£136,000.

The plans and specifications were prepared, and the work supervised by the Public Works Department.

I wish the Committee to take notice of that.

Mr Thomas Brown:

– That can be said of pretty well all Government work.

Mr FOWLER:

-The honorable member had better not speak too quickly, lest he be sorry afterwards -

Messrs. Garnsworthy and Smith’s contract of 1/12/83, for£13,0791s. 2d. being one of the earliest let.

It appears, therefore, that the total responsibility of Messrs. Garnsworthy and Smith in connexion with the making of the Gippsland Lakes Entrance, was for work worth only £13,000 odd out of a total expenditure of £136,000 odd; that is, they were responsible for aboutatenth of the work. Yet, in the testimonial, we are given to understand that they were responsible for practically the whole work, and that Mr. Chinn was the man who brought operations to a successful issue. I saw Mr. Smith, the surviving partner of Messrs. Garnsworthy and Smith, and submitted the testimonial to him. Having read it, he expressed the utmost surprise at it; and when I asked whether Mr. Chinn was responsible for carrying out their little bit of a contract, he assured me that the full extent of Mr. Chinn’s connexion with it was that they hadreferred to him a few times in regard to certain minor features of the work. I leave the Committee to decide the amount of truth there is in the paragraph of the testimonial which gives credit to Mr. Chinn for the supervision of the whole of the work done at the Gippsland Lakes Entrance.

Mr Frazer:

– Will the honorable “member explain why they took Mr. Chinn on at Adelaide in connexion with the trams, subsequent to that?

Mr FOWLER:

– I have already said that honorable members opposite should not be too hasty about making remarks, lest they be sorry afterwards; and I can assure the Minister that that applies with a great deal of force to the question which he has just put to me.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 8 p.m.

Mr FOWLER:

– Having shown the microscopic nature of the association of Mr. Chinn with the construction of the entrance to Gippsland Lakes, I pass on now to certain assertions that were made in connexion with the firm of Garnsworthy and Smith - assertions in which it was attempted to give Mr. Chinn the benefit of further association with the firm. It has been stated that Messrs. Garnsworthy and Smith had, amongst other large contracts, the construction of a railway line from Kelly Basin, on the west coast of Tasmania, to Mount Lyell field. Mr. Smith states to me that his firm did not construct the railway from Kelly Basin to Mount Lyell field. They had a contract in connexion with another line, which runs from Strahan to the Mount Lyell district; but I am informed that Mr. Chinn had nothing whatever to do with that contract. Seeing that Mr. Chinn has been given a great amount of credit for overcoming engineering difficulties in connexion with the line from Kelly Basin to the Mount Lyell field, I prosecuted my inquiries still further, thinking that, perhaps, a mistake had been made in confusing the two lines. I communicated with the contractors for the line from the Kelly Basin to Mount Lyell fields, and this is the answer I received -

Melbourne, 14th November, 1912.

Dear Sir,

In reply to your inquiry, we beg to state that we were the contractors for the North Mount Lyell Railway from Kelly’s Basin to Gormanstown, Linda Valley, and built it from start to finish.

Mr. Chinn was not in our employ on this or any other of our works. He applied to us for engagement, but we were unable to utilize bis services.

Yours faithfully, (Sgd.) Baxter and Saddler.

Following the matter up still further, I found the engineer for that contract, and applied to him for information as to whether Mr. Chinn had carried out this work and was responsible for all connected with it, as the public have been given to understand. This is the reply I received from the engineer in question -

Belmore-road, Randwick, N.S.W., 7th December, 1912.

Dear Sir,

In reply to your wire received to-day, Mr. Chinn was a draughtsman in my Melbourne office, and under my directions prepared most of the contract drawings for the North Mount Lyell and Macquarie Harbor Railway. He was not employed by me in Tasmania, either in the construction of the line or surveys.

Yours faithfully, (Sgd.) Alfred Clayton.

Mr King O’Malley:

– He has some ability.

Mr FOWLER:

- Mr. Chinn, who has been alleged to be responsible for the carrying out of this difficult engineering undertaking, was, it appears, employed in the office of the engineer in the humble capacity of draughtsman. So much for the reiterated statements that Mr. Chinn was responsible for the plans and for the superintendence of the construction of this very difficult railway line. Now I come to another testimonial, on which a great deal of emphasis has been placed. It runs as follows - “Warleigh,” Brighton, Victoria, 23rd April,1903.

Mr. Henry Chinn, civil engineer, has been employed by me during a great number of years as engineer in charge of construction, &c, on almost all the large contracts I have engaged in, and I can, without the slightest hesitation, speak of him in the very highest terms as a professional gentleman.

I have carried out some of the largest contracts in New South Wales, Victoria, and Tasmania, under both the Governments and Harbor Boards of these States, also many of the underground contracts in connexion with the sewerage scheme of Melbourne, and I owe a deal of my success to the untiring energy and marked ability displayed by Mr. Chinn as my engineer in all these works.

To hear of his further success will give not only me great pleasure, but the great body of contractors, with whom he is deservedly popular, and it is due to him to state he is an engineer of exceptional ability, and that no more competent and popular gentleman in his profession is known to me.

Falkingham,

Railway Contractor.

Another very fine testimonial, indeed ! The sequel to it is contained in a letter which I shall now read from Mr. William Falkingham, a son of the contractor who is alleged to have signed the testimonial I have just read.

Mr Wise:

-“ Alleged”?

Mr FOWLER:

– Will honorable members please listen? The letter I received is as follows : -

Nixon-street, Shepparton, 28th November, 191 2.

Sir,

With reference to your inquiries about the testimonials on behalf of Mr. Chinn, and signed J. Falkingham, appearing on page 1427 of the Parliamentary Debates, I beg to state it is not correct that Mr. Chinn was employed by my father as engineer in charge of construction on almost all the contracts my father carried out. Mr. Chinn was employed only on two contracts, one a railway contract in New South Wales for about six, the other a sewerage contract’ in Pickles-street, South Melbourne, for about three months. He was not in charge of either of these contracts, but was engaged in a subordinate capacity without any responsibility. My brother Joseph and myself were on all my father’s contracts as managers and partners, and I deny that Mr. Chinn had anything to do with our or my father’s success. On the contrary, we had a good deal of trouble with Mr. Chinn, and he was finally dismissed by my father from the sewerage contract in South Melbourne, because he could not carry out his work in a satisfactory way. Mr. Chinn gave the wrong lines in a drive, which put my father to big expense. I am positive that my father never wrote this testimonial, and it is most unlikely that he ever put his name to anything so incorrect and misleading. I wish also to point out as proof that this testimonial was not given by my father, that at the date it bears, 23rd April, 1903, my father was not living at address stated upon it, namely, Warleigh, Brighton. He had left there threeyears previously, and at the date given on the testimonial was living at 95 Riversdale-road, Glenferrie. I have no prejudice whatever against Mr. Chinn, but in the interests of truth, and of my father’s good name, I consider it my duty to supply you with the above information.

I am, Sir,

Yours faithfully, (Sgd.) Wm. Falkingham.

I leave the testimonial and the subsequent letter before the Committee for honorable members to draw their own deductions.

Mr Cann:

– Is the father dead?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Yes, he died some years ago.

Mr FOWLER:

– On the official file, which was produced in justification of Mr. Chinn’s appointment, there is a document containing the following statement-

Went to Adelaide and made up tender for 54 miles construction electric tramway successfully, and acted as contractor’s engineer on works.

That is an official statement - part of the official file submitted by the Minister to justify the appointment of Mr. Chinn. I have a letter here from the contractors who carried out that work, and it runs as follows-

Smith and Timms, Contractors,

Adelaide, nth November, 1912.

Dear Sir,

In reply to yours dated 30th ult. re Mr. Chinn’s connexion with the tendering for the Adelaide trams. Mr. Chinn was never at any time engineer for the tramway, nor did he ever do any engineering work in connexion with it. As far as his connexion with the making up of the tender for the construction of the 54 miles, he had nothing whatever to do with it, any more than check amounts as submitted. Mr. Chinn was appointed as manager of the tramway construction, but after a few weeks’ trial he was removed from that position, as, in our opinion, he was not competent to carry out the duties.

Yours faithfully, (Sgd.) Smith & Timms.

In connexion with the appointment of Mr. Chinn, allusion was made by that gentleman in his application to a certain patent he alleged he possessed for the welding of rails, and the use of which he said was going to be of great benefit in carrying out the work of the transcontinental railway. In regard to this, I desire to read the following letter -

Australian Thermit Co. Ltd.,

Engineers and Contractors, 387 Kent-street,

Sydney, 7th December, 1912.

Dear Sir,

In reply to your inquiry regarding our experience with Mr. H. Chinn, we beg to say that when Chinn was acting for a short time in 1909, as engineer for Messrs. Smith and Timms, during the construction of the Adelaide electric tram line, he became acquainted with the “ Goldschmidt Alumino Thermic System “ for welding metals. Evidently Chinn must then have studied the Australian patents granted to Dr. Goldschmidt, and finding that a certain patent did not apply to South Australia, he, in company with another Adelaide gentleman, manufactured by the well-known Thermit formula a welding compound, which he called “ Kalipsite,” and for which he applied for a Commonwealth patent.

Dr. Goldschmidt, the inventor of the “Thermit” Welding System, opposed Chinn’s patent application. The latter then offered to sell his invention for£20,000, reducing his figure shortly after to £1,000, but was told that the inventor of “ Thermit,” as well as the Australian Thermit Co. Ltd., refused to have any dealings whatsoever with Chinn and Co.

Chinn then endeavoured to sell his imitated “ Kalipsite “ to the Adelaide and Sydney Tramway Departments, whereupon Dr. Goldschmidt brought an action against Chinn ‘for infringing his patent rights, and obtained from the Supreme Court of New South Wales an injunction with order of costs against Chinn, restraining Chinn from infringing the Goldschmidt’s “ Thermit “ patent rights.

The taxed costs against Chinn amounted to £980 18s.9d., of which Chinn has so far not paid one penny.

An execution against Chinn in Western Australia proved fruitless, as Chinn could prove that he had nothing more than the clotheshe was wearing.

Yours faithfully,

– The honorable member is a lawyer. He can tell him how to do it.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member knows that no private individual has a right to compel any other man to make an oath. Here are some of the statements made in Mr. Falkingham’s testimonial -

That Mr. Henry Chinn, civil engineer, has been employed by me during a great number of years as engineer-in-charge of construction, &c, on almost all the large contracts I have engaged in, and I can, without the slightest hesitation, speak of him in the very highest terms as a professional gentleman. I have carried out some of the largest contracts in New South Wales, Victoria, and Tasmania, under both the Governments and Harbor Boards of those States, also many of the underground contracts in connexion with the sewerage scheme of Melbourne, and I owe a deal of my success to the untiring energy and marked ability displayed by Mr. Chinn as my engineer in all these works. “Untiring energy and marked ability” seems to have a very marked resemblance to a phrase used in another testimonial by Garnsworthy and Smith. They use the term “ untiring energy and exceptional ability.” Mr. Falkingham’s testimonial proceeds -

To hear of his further success will give not only me great pleasure, but the great body of contractors, with whom he is deservedly popular, and it is due to him to state that he is an engineer of exceptional ability, and that no more competent and popular gentleman in his profession is known to me.

Suppose against that statement we place the allegations of Mr. Falkingham’s son. Mr. Falkingham is dead. So is Mr. Garnsworthy. So is Sir William Zeal.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Sir John Madden is not dead.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– But I do not suppose that Sir John Madden would for a moment give a testimonial regarding the professional ability of Mr. Chinn. Mr. Falkingham’s son, who is the only man who is capable of speaking of the real facts, says that he does not believe that that testimonial was given by his father to Mr. Chinn, because the statements contained in it are not true - because they are very far from the truth. He says that Mr. Chinn was not engaged on all, or nearly all, of these large contracts.

Mr Charlton:

– What is the date of the testimonial?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The 23rd April, i893-

Mr Charlton:

– What was the age of Mr. Falkingham’s son then?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The son is now an elderly man. He says that Mr. Chinn was not engaged on these works, but only upon two of them, and in a minor capacity. . He says that Mr. Chinn was engaged on one constructing work for a period of six months, and that he was also engaged upon a very minor contract in connexion with the South Melbourne sewerage works, from which he was dismissed for incompetence after three months. He writes as follows : -

I beg to state it is not correct that Mr. Chinn - was employed by my father as engineer in charge of construction on almost all the contracts my father carried out. Mr. Chinn was employed only on two contracts, one a railway contract in New South Wales for about six months, the other a sewerage contract in Picklesstreet, South Melbourne, for about three months. He was not in charge of either of these contracts, but was engaged in a subordinate capacity without any responsibility.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Does he say that Mr. Chinn forged his father’s name?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– He says that Mr. Chinn was engaged in a subordinate capacity, without any responsibility. This is the charge made by the only man alive who knows anything about the facts - that this testimonial is forged.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Let him make that charge.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– He does make it. He says -

My brother Joseph and myself were on all my father’s contracts as managers and partners.

I presume, unless he is lying, that he knows what he is talking about. He proceeds -

And I deny that Mr. Chinn had anything to do with our or my father’s success. On the contrary, we had a good deal of trouble with Mr. Chinn, and he was finally dis- . missed by my father from the sewerage contract in South Melbourne, because he could not carry out his work in a satisfactory way. Mr. Chinn gave the wrong lines in a drive, which put my father to big expense. I am positive that my father never wrote this testimonial, and it is most unlikely that he ever put his name to anything so incorrect and misleading.

If this is not a genuine letter, the man who wrote it is not only a liar, but a rogue of the deepest die. But what interest has he in the matter?

Mr Cann:

– It is a very simple thing to give wrong lines.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It may be. But Mr. Chinn was dismissed from the contract for so doing.

I wish also to point out as proof that this testimonial was not given by my father, that at the date it bears, 23rd April, 1903, my father was not living at address stated upon it, namely, Warleigh, Brighton. He had left there three years previously, and at the date given” on the testimonial was living at 95 Riversdale-road Glenferrie.

Mr Higgs:

– When was that letter written ?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It was written this year. If this matter be subjected to an inquiry, Mr. Falkingham, junior, can be forced to swear to these things; and if he swears falsely, he can be prosecuted for perjury. All that we seek is that the truth of these allegations shall be inquired into.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Let Mr. Falkingham, junior, make a statutory declaration.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Here we have quite a number of persons who make statements, and presumably they are not all engaged in a conspiracy. Why should they be? Unconnected with one another, they make statements which they believe to be true which are inconsistent with the pretensions put forward by Mr. Chinn. The testimonial from Messrs. Garnsworthy and Smith is written, as the honorable member for Perth has pointed out, in the same turgid phraseology - a most extraordinary coincidence, if one compares its phrases with those of the other testimonials.

Mr Finlayson:

– Testimonials are often similar in terms.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I have copied a testimonial.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is possible that Mr. Chinn may have written the testimonials himself. Testimonials are sometimes written by a man who gets others to sign them.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– Mr. Chinn was not appointed on these testimonials.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That is another question.

Mr King O’Malley:

– He was appointed on his ability ; that is all.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

-I challenge the honorable member’s ability, no matter what his instinctive knowledge of human nature, to possess a knowledge of all these matters.

Mr King O’Malley:

– Have a deal with me, and see how I will come out of it.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– There is not merely this one case, which alone would demand the fullest inquiry, but there are the other cases, in which the claim has been brought forward that Mr. Chinn did great work, and men who know about the thing swear that he did not, and had no responsibility for the work. A stronger case for inquiry has never been made out, and the matter cannot be left to rest where it is. It is no answer to say that the honorable member should go outside, and assume the responsibility of proving things which are not capable of proof by him. lt is the duty of an honorable member to whom statements of this kind come, to put them before Parliament, in train for inquiry by a Committee of the House, or by. the Minister, in order that the truth of the allegations on one side or the other may be established. This case having been made out, matters cannot remain as they are. With the doubts that have been raised, backed up by these independent letters and information which will appear in Hansard, how is it possible for the matter to be allowed to rest where it is? I do not believe that honorable members on either side will think of that. The case requires investigation. If a Committee or a Commission be appointed, it will have power to compel all these persons to come before it, and to swear to what is written. It they cannot, Mr. Chinn will be relieved of all the aspersions or implications thrown on him by their letters. If they can prove their statements, they will have made a case which he will have to disprove. One or the other must be done.

Mr FOWLER:
Perth

.- As under the standing order I have the right to make another speech, I take up the challenge of honorable members of the Labour party, and give chapter iii. of this case, and as soon as I get the proof copy of the report of my speech, I shall repeat what T have said outside, word for word, at the earliest possible opportunity.

Mr Atkinson:

– There is no need to do that.

Mr FOWLER:

– I have said it, and I shall do it. This man Chinn is a worthless scoundrel and imposter, and members of the Government are aware of it. At the time when he was alleged to be carrying on a highly lucrative business in Melbourne, his motherless children were being left in such a state of neglect that they had to be taken charge of and brought up by relatives. Let me tell the Committee the circumstances under which Mr. Chinn left Victoria in a hurry. A gentleman at present carrying on business in this city was approached by an individual who represented to him that he was co-trustee with a certain- person holding a very high position in this State, in connexion with certain moneys which they wished to lend out to farmers at low rates of interest. The business man was asked if he could put the lenders in communication with farmers needing loans of money. He took the trouble to communicate with a friend, then in business in the northern parts of Victoria, who at present holds a responsible position in the Government of this State. This gentleman on being communicated with arranged to drive the individual who had alleged that he had money to lend, to see some farmers. This individual made a pretence of inspecting some farms, said that the security was good, and that the money would be lent. He then levied the inspection fees, and that was the last that was heard of the matter, so far as he was concerned. The gentleman who worked that swindle was Mr. Henry Chinn, the man who was appointed by this Government to superintend the construction of a portion of the Western Australian railway, who has been championed and defended by this Government right through until now. The business man, finding that Mr. Chinn had disappeared, went to his alleged cotrustee, and asked him about the affair. The alleged co-trustee said that Mr. Chinn had no money to lend in connexion with him,, and probably none at all, and that, as a matter of fact, the business man had been “got at.” That is a good many years ago. I come now to a later episode. About six years since there was a great outcry in Western Australia about goldstealing at the Kalgoorlie mines. It was pretty well known that large quantities of gold were disappearing in a mysterious fashion, and the difficulty was to find, not only who was stealing the gold, but who was getting away with it and disposing of it. An inquiry was set afoot, and although the results of the inquiry were never published, I believe that some very interesting evidence was forthcoming. I am in a position to prove that during this period when there was so much -anxiety regarding gold stealing, Mr. Henry Chinn was trying to dispose of a parcel of gold in Perth, not at the Mint, but to a private buyer, if he could find one, at £2 an ounce - about half its value. One of Mr. Chinn’s first acts, after being appointed to his present position, was to get into communication with a firm which has a certain patent process from which it naturallydesires to get some advantage. He informed the Melbourne manager of the firm of his appointment, and said that in all probability he would be able tothrow some big business in his way, but. that there should be a commission on it. The words he used in connexion with this suggestion of a commission were that the manager would have to talk to him, not in hundreds, but in thousands, of pounds. This is the gentleman whom the Minister of Home Affairs has stood up on the floor of the Chamber to-night to defend, and whose appointment the Government has endeavoured to justify. Ministers are prepared to stick to Mr. Henry Chinn through thick and thin. Are they going to do it now? I challenge them to take up the gauntlet at the earliest opportunity that I have thrown down.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– What was thefirm ?

Mr FOWLER:

– I may as well let the Committee know that the firm whose manager Mr. Chinn approached was the Powellising Company.

Mr King O’malley:

– That is not. true.

Mr FOWLER:

– I am prepared tostate outside, at the earliest possible opportunity, everything that I have said tonight, and I again challenge the Government to take up the gauntlet.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister of Home Affairs · Darwin · ALP

– The charge that the honorable member hasmade against the Powell Process Company

Mr Fowler:

– I made no charge against the company.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– Is absolutely without foundation. I heard the very same story at the time - though I have nothing whatever to do with the Powell process. I do my business direct with the Western Australian Government. I sent for Mr. Gorton, and he “said that it was a wilful and deliberate falsehood. Hesaid that in the office before several of the secretaries. I told him that if that was true - the story I had heard - that Mr. Chinn would go very quickly. Hesaid, “ It is an absolute falsehood,” andif the honorable member for Perth wilh make the statement outside about Mr. Gorton, and Mr. Gorton does not takeaction, I shall “ sack “ Chinn in the morning.

Mr Fowler:

– The Government will be “ sacked “ by the country over this in very quick time, or I much misunderstand the electors of Australia.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– I can assure my honorable friend that he will have his work cut out in securing his own seat. He need not worry about this Government. As far as he has gone, it was the last croak of a dying circus.

Mr DEAKIN:
Ballarat

.- I have no desire to continue these polemics, and still less to introduce any further difference. But I ask the Minister whether the Government does not, under the circumstances, propose to take the necessary steps for a full and fair inquiry into these charges. Honorable members on both sides will agree that, having regard to the allegations, made apparently on excellent authority, the employ^ of the Government who has been mentioned, and against whom the charges have been levelled, has as much interest in the early holding of an inquiry of the fullest and frankest kind as have those who have made the charges. Under the circumstances, I ask the Minister whether he will make a statement now, or whether he will undertake to consult his colleagues on this subject. The matter cannot .be allowed to rest as it stands. Either a very grave and serious injustice is being done to an innocent man, or there is an officer in a Ministerial Department who has no title to hold any office of trust.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- In view of the statements that have been made this evening, I say at once I think it necessary and due to the country that some inquiry should be made into the position of Mr. Chinn. If half of the statements which have been made are true, Mr. Chinn is not a suitable man for his position. In justice to him, and to the Government, there should be an inquiry to ascertain whether they are true. I am not one of those who contend that an honorable member is bound, to make such statements as these outside the House.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The position that he is bound to do so is an entirely wrong one.

Mr CHARLTON:

– There are many statements which, if made outside, would lead to trouble. The representatives of the people are privileged in what they say in Parliament, so that in the public interest the fullest light may be thrown on the character of any individual, or on any matter. The honorable member for Perth has made very grave charges against Mr. Chinn. I say frankly that I never heard a stronger case yet stated against any man in my life. If this man has been guilty of selling gold at £2 an ounce in Perth-

Mr Fowler:

– I said he tried to sell it.

Mr CHARLTON:

– If he tried to sell gold at that price, the matter ought to be sifted to the very bottom. I know that, ten years ago or so, gold stealing was common in Kalgoorlie and the Boulder. I happened to be there at the time, and I know that in some cases the charges were proved, though in other cases the offenders were not found out. If gold is offered at £2 an ounce, there is something wrong, for gold can be sold at its full value at any time. Of course, I do not say that the charges made are true, but no honorable member would make charges of the kind unless he had evidence to support them ; and there ought to be an inquiry. If these charges, or any one of them, can be proved, this officer should not hold his position one moment longer. On the other hand, if the charges are incorrect, then an inquiry will only do justice to Mr. Chinn himself; at any rate, he cannot rest under the stigma that has been placed upon him. I do not agree that the honorable member for Perth should be called upon to make these charges outside.

Mr Sampson:

– That is a most unfair challenge.

Mr CHARLTON:

– It is, and I contend that in our public capacity we are privileged to make statements, and, if they are of any consequence, it is the duty of the Government to make investigation.

Mr Sampson:

– In the interests of the House.

Mr CHARLTON:

– And in the interests of the country. A man who has not clean hands should not be in any responsible position connected with the public affairs of the country; and I, as a supporter of the Government, hope the Prime Minister will take into consideration the statements that have been made. Some inquiry must be instituted, and, if the charges are correct, this gentleman should be sent about his business.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister of Home Affairs · Darwin · ALP

– I have no hesitation about an inquiry into this matter, providing that the honorable member for Perth will come to the inquiry and make those charges.

Mr Fowler:

– Does the honorable member think that I would stay away?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– I am perfectly willing to have an inquiry, but I do not think that Mr. Chinn ought to be sacrificed unless the charges are absolutely true. A man ought- not to be deprived of the opportunity to make his living if he has the ability to make it. Of course, if what the honorable member for Perth says about Mr. Chinn is true, Mr. Chinn cannot hold such a position - that is all.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

.- L generally like to be on the side of the “under dog.” I can carry my mind back to a time when in the Victorian State Parliament I endeavoured to have an inquiry into the scamping of the contract for this Parliament House. The present Leader of the Opposition here was a member of that Parliament ; and the man who would not accept a bribe, but refused to pass the plastering, that is a disgrace to the Queen’s Hall, and the man who refused to pass the stone used to build the Law Courts in this State, were sacked. Sir Bryan O’Loghlen also endeavoured to have an inquiry made, but the power of the contractors in the House was sufficient to prevent it. If any one looks at the stone in the Melbourne Law Courts, from the second story upwards, he will find every single stone spotted like the Dalmatian dogs that follow carriages. Every stone had to be tested by a model stone, but that model stone disappeared, and a reward by the Government, supplemented with a reward of £100 from the contractors, failed to secure its return. Every single stone in the second story of the Law Courts is a disgrace and a dishonour to the contractors for the building. Again, I tried to get justice when Sir Henry Wrixon was AttorneyGeneral in the State Parliament, by means of an inquiry in the case of Silas Harding, who was proved to have committed wilful and corrupt perjury, and yet he was allowed to die in his bed as an innocent man. I am glad that the Minister of Home Affairs is prepared to have an inquiry, because I do not believe that Mr. Chinn is as bad as he is painted. I believe that he is able to do his work, and I have yet to know that the head of his Department has contradicted the fact that he has saved Australia a large sum of money in shortening the track of the transcontinental line.

Mr Fowler:

– That statement is not correct.

Mr King O’malley:

– It is absolutely correct ; and, at any rate, it has nothing to do with the charges that have been made.

Mr Fowler:

– The shortening of the track was made by another man altogether.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– The honorable member for Perth has the courage to say that he is going to repeat his speech outside. Although I do not desire thai, he should do so, I know of nothing more courageous.

Mr Fowler:

– The honorable member challenged me to do so.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– No; I challenged the honorable member for Flinders, who represents a minority that sent him into this House. I was somewhat amused with the legal twist that that honorable member put on the matter when he said that the wording of the letters was somewhat similar. We naturally ask for testimonials of persons whom we do not know ; and, after all, sons do not know all their fathers do. As for the testimonial being taken from an address occupied by the writer three years before, I last week received a letter that had been sent to my address of twenty years ago, and that letter was from a scientific society. Of course, we know that equity barrister style that the honorable member for Flinders always displays, and his tones are so ponderous that we should be really impressed if we did not know him. I hope that, for Mr. Chinn’s sake, an inquiry will be held; but it should be arranged that Mr. Chinn should not be mulcted in law costs, for his salary is not big enough to bear them. It is only right that the Government should bear the cost of such an inquiry regarding one of their officers. I had three afternoon experiences in the High Court, and I should not wish a Newfoundland dog to be tried in that way. In that case there were 150 sworn declarations, and it would have cost £2,000 to try to get justice. Sometimes when we read judgments we wonder where the Judges get their sense. We know that they go to the tail of the horse in order to decorate their heads, and very dirty wigs they have sometimes. A Judge occupies the very highest position, but some of them sit silent when the most terrible perjury is being committed. I hope mat Mr. Chinn will not be put to expense, but that the Government will find the money to defend their official.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I was unavoidably absent from the Chamber, and did not hear the charges made by the honorable member for Perth regarding an employe of the Commonwealth, named Henry Chinn, supervising engineer on the transcontinental railway. The honorable member will correct me if I am wrong; but I understand that one of the documents read in relation to that employe purports to be a forgery. That document, I am told, represents Mr. Chinn as a man of competency in his profession, and speaks highly of him in other respects, and it is said that that document is not true, and that the fact that it is not true is known to Mr. Chinn himself. If that be so, of course a state of affairs is created that makes it due to the Government, the House, and only fair to Mr. Chinn himself, that early and ample opportunity should be afforded him to defend himself against those charges.

Mr J H Catts:

– The charges might have been brought forward earlier.

Mr FISHER:

– I presume the charges are made in a bond fide way ; and I do not say that the position would have been improved if the matter had been brought forward earlier. We do not know that the documents were in the possession of the honorable member earlier; and I take it that if they had been we should have heard the charges earlier.

Mr Fowler:

– What brought me to my feet a second time only recently occurred in another place.

Mr FISHER:

– Even supposing that the information were in the possession of the honorable member earlier,, that would not relieve the Government from taking action at the present time, now that the charges have been made.

Mr Fowler:

– This is the first opportunity that I have had.

Mr FISHER:

– That, of course, exonerates the honorable member from any imputation of withholding information.- Although I have not heard all that the honorable member has said, I feel that no time should be lost in investigating the whole of the facts, and I shall be prepared tomorrow to make a statement on behalf of the Government.

Mr McWILLIAMS:
Franklin

– I should like to direct attention to the item “storage and seasoning of timber,” under which head £4,320 was voted last year, and £1,549 spent. I understood that some two years ago the Minister of Home Affairs announced that it was his intention to erect in some centres in Australia depots where the various wood and timbers of the States could be seasoned and made available for the use of the Government as they were required. We are now undertaking works of great magnitude in connexion with which enormous quantities of timber will be required. By way of illustration, I would point out that the sleepers required on the railway from Port Augusta to Kalgoorlie, and for the projected line from Oodnadatta to Pine Creek, will probably involve an expenditure of over £4,000,000. Surely the Minister, having regard to his business capacity, does not propose that we should make no effort to secure the best timbers available for the purpose. I have, on many occasions during the session, impressed upon the Minister the desirableness of attending to this matter-

Mr Fisher:

– Will the honorable member allow me to interrupt him for a moment ?

Mr McWILLIAMS:

– Certainly.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I have asked the honorable member for Perth privately whether he will be good enough to lay on the table the papers which he has used, and which I presume are original documents, so that they will be in the possession of the House, and can be dealt with in a formal manner. If he will intimate his willingness to do so, a difficulty will be removed.

Mr Fowler:

– I shall certainly do so.

Mr McWILLIAMS:
Franklin

.- In connexion with the construction of the Federal Capital,” vast quantities of timber will also be used, and we can obtain the best value for our money only by taking steps to secure seasoned woods. There are different processes of seasoning. The Minister has mentioned two or three, and we all know that by up-ending timber in stacks beneficial results are naturally secured. Unless steps be taken to obtain supplies of seasoned timber in advance, the Government will one day find it necessary, without notice, to issue orders for very large quantities, which will have to be hurriedly cut and used without being properly seasoned. We have in Tasmania large quantities of blackwood of magnificent quality; but, unfortunately, many blackwood trees are being destroyed because, owing to their remoteness from a market, the rates at present offering would not pay.

Mr West:

– Blackwood fetches a big price in Sydney.

Mr MCWILLIAMS:

– I have seen blackwood burnt. As a matter of fact, for furniture-making purposes, blackwood is as good as the best mahogany. For beauty and durability, it cannot be surpassed. If the Minister took action now, he could secure a supply in the log to be cut and used as required. The celerytopped pine, another beautiful timber, could also be secured in large quantities. I think that the amount voted for the storage and seasoning of timber last year should have been expended. Unfortunately, year after year, we agree to large sums of money which we are told are urgently required, only to find, at the end of the year, that perhaps not 10 per cent, of the total amount has been expended. The Government should look well ahead and make provision for the timber they will require in connexion with railway construction and other works. I have complained on a previous occasion that, although we have in Tasmania timber equal to the very best jarrah, not one order for a sleeper has been placed in that State by the Government. I do not suggest that timber required for railway construction purposes in Western Australia, where large supplies of jarrah are available, should be secured from the east; but, at the same time, I think it is equally foolish to bring from the west timber required in the eastern States when we have in Tasmania ample supplies of, at least, equally good timber. First class mills in Tasmania are awaiting orders, and the industry would be greatly assisted if the Government, instead of waiting until large quantities are required, were to place their orders in time to allow the timber to be thoroughly seasoned. The Minister should establish testing depots in the different States, so that the Government will be able to get good value for their money. The life of seasoned timber is three times that of green timber placed in the ground.

Mr W J JOHNSON:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Is there any timber in Tasmania suitable for wood-pulp purposes?

Mr MCWILLIAMS:

– Yes, the best in the world. I regret that the amount placed on the Estimates for this purpose last year was not expended.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

– We expended ;£*>549-

Mr MCWILLIAMS:

– I am sorry that the Minister did not spend the full amount.

Mr King O’Malley:

– We have spent it since.

Mr Mcwilliams:

– Although this sum of £4,320 was placed on the Estimates last year, no attempt has yet been made to thoroughly test the timbers of Australia. The timbers of Queensland, New South Wales, and Tasmania ought to be well tested. There are various seasoning processes, but the best process for one class of timber might’ prove to be quite as unsuitable for another. The Minister should recognise that it is not good- business to utilize green timber on Government works when, by the exercise of a little foresight, large supplies of well-seasoned timber can be obtained.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare

– I wish to bring under the attention of the Minister the question of the supervision of Commonwealth works. Since the inception of Federation, it has been the practice to pass votes for certain works and to leave their supervision to the State Departments. The Public Works Department of New South Wales is carrying out large State works, and its officers naturally give first consideration to the State undertakings. Commonwealth works have suffered very considerably because of the system that has hitherto been followed, urgent works sometimes being delayed, although provision has been made for them on the Estimates. This question has been discussed on previous occasions, and the only remedy that has been suggested is that we should establish a large Works Department in connexion with the Department of Home Affairs. It has been urged that the Department of Home Affairs should have the supervision of the detailed work hitherto transacted by the State Departments ; and it seems to me that we have now reached a point at which some system of the kind should be adopted. I find that provision is made on these Estimates for a total expenditure of £183,612 in respect of ordinary works and buildings to be carried out by the Department of Home Affairs. Last year, the actual expenditure on such works amounted to £157,741. The prevision made for expenditure on works and buildings in the several States this year is as follows : - New South Wales, ^£46,098; Victoria, £26,842; Queensland, £19,242 ; South Australia, £12,032 ; Western Australia, £6,412 ; and Tasmania, £.3,323. Ifc will thus 06 that the annual expenditure in public works in three, if not four, of the States is large enough to warrant the special supervision for which I ask. The figures I have quoted, however, relate only to the ordinary expenditure of the Department. In the Estimates providing for Additions, New Works and Buildings, provision has been made for an estimated expenditure of £991»647> under the supervision of the Department of Home Affairs, during the present year. So that, altogether, the appropriations for these new works total £2,789,000. Last year the expenditure upon similar works was £2,457,324.

Mr John Thomson:

– Was that for the whole Commonwealth?

Mr THOMAS BROWN:

– Yes. These figures indicate that the operations of the Commonwealth in regard to its public works are of such an extensive character as to warrant the appointment of a larger staff for the purposes of supervision. I would like to know from the Minister what he intends to do by way of increasing the State staffs in order to cope with this work of supervision? From the large volume of work which is being done, it seems to me that whatever objections to duplicating services may have existed at the outset do not exist now. In order to secure efficiency, it is absolutely necessary that the Department should have a supervising staff of its own. I shall be pleased to know whether the Minister has any scheme in reference to this matter.

Mr FULLER:
Illawarra

.- The Prime Minister has promised to institute a full inquiry into the allegations which have been made against Mr. Chinn. I would suggest to the Minister in the most friendly way that, in view of that promise, he should withdraw the challenge which, in the heat of the moment, he threw out to the honorable member for Perth that the latter should make outside of this Chamber the statements which he has made inside of it. It would be only a fair thing for him to do in the circumstances. There are also one or two matters of an important character to which I wish to direct the Minister’s at tention. The first has reference to the plans which have been prepared in connexion with the Federal Capital. I have spoken to the Minister upon this subject on several occasions, and as one who takes a deep interest in it I entertain some anxiety as to the wisdom of building the city in accordance with the plan which is now on exhibition in the Queen’s Hall. I am not going to make any charge against the ability of the six officers of the Department of Home Affairs who have prepared that composite plan. When I was Minister of Home Affairs, I had an opportunity of meeting them, and I am pleased to recognise their ability. But I do not think any one of those officers will claim to have had the slightest experience in the scientific matter of town planning. They are admirable officers, but in town planning there is not one of them who has had the slightest education or experience.

Mr Ryrie:

– Are there any men in the Commonwealth with that knowledge?

Mr FULLER:

– I understand that there are. The Minister has spoken most loudly of his desire to establish in Australia the finest city in the world. We are all anxious that that should be done. But it can only be done by building the Federal Capital on lines which accord with the best experience and knowledge that are available. How is it possible for six officers in his Department to draw up a plan for the Federal City? We have the premiated designs which are on exhibition in the Queen’s Hall, and we have also the composite plan which the Minister intends to adopt.

Mr Thomas Brown:

– From a layman’s stand-point, that is the best design of the lot.

Mr FULLER:

– But we want a plan which is the best from an expert’s standpoint. The men who have been appointed to prepare this conglomerate plan are all laymen. In Germany, America, and other portions of the world, town planning has only become a science during the past few years. I would impress upon the Minister, before starting to build the Federal Capital, the necessity of securing the best expert advice that is available.

Mr Spence:

– There would be no harm in. getting an opinion upon the composite plan.

Mr FULLER:

– That is all I wish. If the Minister is prepared to call in experts,

Mr RYRIE:

– There, is plenty of time to get those plans. The first work which should be proceeded with is that of providing a scheme of city drainage and water supply.

Mr King O’Malley:

– We are engaged on that work now.

Mr Riley:

– In Brisbane, there is 110 sewerage system yet.

Mr RYRIE:

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– Yes, and the Surveyor-General cannot quit all other business to give the whole of’ his time to us. He has a lot of other work to do.

Mr Chanter:

– He is busy on the redistribution of the electoral divisions.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– The new electoral proposals will come before vis tomorrow. He has bad work to do in connexion with them. As to the Capital design, it is now hanging in the Queen’s Hall. The honorable member for Parramatta made some remarks about public works, and the Prime Minister himself put forward a similar suggestion some time ago. However, we are not ready yet to inaugurate a general Works Department, but we shall, I think, be able to do so at the commencement of next session. This will enable us to prevent waste, and obtain economic efficiency.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 98 (Electoral Office), £7,387; division 99 (Public Works Staff), £32,786 ; division 100 (Census and Statistics), £16,537; division 101 (Meteorological Branch), £28,642 ; division 102 (Lands and Surveys), £22,317 ; division 103 (Works and Buildings), £183,612 ; division 104 (Governor-General’s Establishment), £10,773; division 105 (Miscellaneous), £117,820, agreed to.

Progress reported.

page 7305

COMMONWEALTH WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION BILL

Bill returned from the Senate with the message that the Senate did not insist on its amendments disagreed to by the House of Representatives.

page 7305

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion (by Mr. Fisher) agreed toThat the House, at its rising, adjourn until 2.30 p.m. to-morrow.

page 7306

ADJOURNMENT

Auditor-General’s Report - Order of Business

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– And we shall have to wait here until honorable members do Caucus it, that is all.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– Lest there should be any misunderstanding, I point out that the honorable member for Ballarat agreed with me in writing that the first business should be the Land Tax Assessment Bill, and, later, the Estimates.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– All I have to say is that that is subject to the consideration of the redistribution scheme.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at 11. 7 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 17 December 1912, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1912/19121217_reps_4_69/>.

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House of Representatives17 December 1912

QUESTION

POSTAGE STAMP PRINTERS

Mr MASSY-GREENE:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr FRAZER:Postmaster-General · KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

QUESTION

HIGH COMMISSIONER

Mr HIGGS:CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

Mr THOMAS:Minister for External Affairs · BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

ELECTORAL ROLLS

Mr BAMFORD:HERBERT, QUEENSLAND

Mr KING O’MALLEY:Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

QUESTION

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BUSINESS

Mr WATKINS:NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP; FLP from 1931

Mr FISHER:Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

QUESTION

ARBITRATION ACT ADMINISTRATION

Mr FENTON:MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr HUGHES:Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH BUILDINGS IN LONDON

Mr BAMFORD:

Mr THOMAS:ALP

QUESTION

CASUAL EMPLOYES

Mr LAIRD SMITH:DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr FISHER:ALP

QUESTION

CORNSACKS

Mr McDOUGALL:WANNON, VICTORIA

Mr TUDOR:Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

PAPERS

REFERENDUM (CONSTITUTION ALTERATION) BILL (NO. 2)

LAND TAX ASSESSMENT BILL

Second Reading

Mr FISHER:Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

Mr Kelly:

Mr FISHER:

Mr Kelly:

Mr FISHER:

Mr Kelly:

Mr Mcwilliams:

Mr FISHER:

Mr Fuller:

Mr FISHER:

Mr Scullin:

Mr FISHER:

Sir John Quick:

Mr FISHER:

Sir John Quick:

Mr FISHER:

Sir John Quick:

Mr FISHER:

Mr McWilliams:

Mr FISHER:

Mr MASSY-GREENE:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Mathews:

Mr FISHER:

Mr Hughes:

Mr Joseph Cook:

Mr FISHER:

Mr Joseph Cook:

Mr FISHER:

Mr Fuller:

Mr Fisher:

Mr Hughes:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:Parramatta

Mr RYRIE:North Sydney

Mr Hughes:

Mr RYRIE:

Mr Hughes:

Mr RYRIE:

Mr Hughes:

Mr RYRIE:

Mr FAIRBAIRN:Fawkner

Mr MASSY-GREENE:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

Mr Fisher:

House of Representatives
17 December 1912

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr FRAZER:
Postmaster-General · KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

Mr THOMAS:
Minister for External Affairs · BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr BAMFORD:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP; FLP from 1931

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr THOMAS:
ALP

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr McDOUGALL:
WANNON, VICTORIA

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

Mr RYRIE:
North Sydney

Mr FAIRBAIRN:
Fawkner

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr LIVINGSTON:
Barker

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr SPENCE:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr RYRIE:
South Sydney

Mr W J JOHNSON:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr W J JOHNSON:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr W J JOHNSON:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr CANN:
Nepean