House of Representatives
15 November 1910

4^th Parliament · 1^st Session

ADJOURNMENT (FORMAL)
- Delay In Installing Wireless Telegraphic Apparatus
PAPERS
QUESTION
- DEFENCE DEPARTMENT
QUESTION
- POSTMASTER-GENERAL’S DEPARTMENT
QUESTION
- TOWN FIRE BELL, GLADSTONE
QUESTION
- GOVERNMENT HOUSES :’ SYDNEY AND MELBOURNE
QUESTION
- MILLERS’ ASSOCIATION
DEFENCE BILL
- Second Reading

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 3 p.m. and read prayers.

page 6097

ADJOURNMENT (FORMAL)

Delay In Installing Wireless Telegraphic Apparatus

Mr SPEAKER:

– I have received an intimation from the honorable member for Fremantle that he desires to move the adjournment of the House to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, viz., . “ The most unsatisfactory position of the Commonwealth in regard to the installation of wireless telegraphy.”

Five honorable members having risen in their -places,

Question proposed.

Mr HEDGES:
Fremantle

.- Although we are nearing the end of the session, no satisfactory answer has been given to the questions which have been asked regarding the progress made in providing in Australia appliances for the .receipt and despatch of messages by means of wireless telegraphy, and some of the answers given have ‘ been so ridiculous that, it is surprising that Ministers made themselves responsible for them. Honorable members are entitled to more information than is available. Very shortly we shall be revisiting our constituencies, and shall then be asked what is being done in this matter, and the only reply that we shall be able to give will be that nothing has been done, because we have recently been told that contracts which we thought had been signed have not been signed. More than two years ago I called attention in this Chamber to the fact that Lloyd’s had offered to install a wireless telegraph apparatus at Fremantle, or to assist the local Harbor Trust in doing so ; but the Postmaster-General informed me that he could not agree to the arrangement, because the Department intended to take the matter in hand. The people are therefore entitled to know why nothing has been done. Similar installations to that proposed to be erected here have been erected all over the world, and the steamers of very many companies are now equipped with wireless apparatus, as many as six such vessels having been in pur ports at one time. Vessels have been equipped at Home without delaying their departure for Australia, and, indeed, vessels have been built and equipped since we first ‘ voted money for the instalment of apparatus here. We should know, therefore, why the work has not been carried out. It is disgraceful that steam-ship companies with comparatively small capital should be able to install wireless apparatus on their vessels, and that this Government should not have provided for the receipt and despatch of messages at a Commonwealth’ station. Messages can be sent from one steamer to another, and, if the receiving vessel is in port, ‘ can be then transmitted by our land lines, as was done recently, when a passenger wished to book seats for a theatrical performance; but a vessel at sea cannot, com municate with a Commonwealth station. The sum of ;£io,coo was voted in 1906-7 for the installation of a wireless station in Australia, and the amount was revoted in subsequent years. At present, £iS>°°° is available for the purpose, and yet contracts have not, so far, been signed for the carrying out of the work. As a matter of fact, the community Has been humbugged from start to finish. On 12th October last, the Postmaster-General said that a Conference was being held in Fremantle between representatives of the Defence Forces, the Navy, his Department; and the contractors for the erection of wireless telegraphy appliances ; that the valuable advice of Admiral Henderson had been obtained ; that two sites were regarded as suitable ; and that the Department was waiting for the contractors to say which they would accept. The reply gives no reason for asking why the contractors should be asked to make a choice. They should merely have been told that the Commonwealth desired the erection of the appliances at a certain site. The changing of a site would have no practical effect on the value of the installation, because, to -move- ten or fifteen miles inland the centre of a circle having a radius of 500 or 1,000 miles would not appreciably affect the distance to which messages could he sent, or from which they could be received. On 21st October, the PostmasterGeneral slated, in reply to a question asked by- me, that he was aware that vessels had been equipped with wireless appliances during their ordinary stay in England on a voyage from Australia. When I asked who the contractors to the Commonwealth Government were,. I was told that they were “ Australian Wireless Limited, 129 Pitt-street, Sydney, who we’re a local company representing a wellestablished German company.” Before I finish I shall show how “ well established “ that company is, and who the contractors are; and I think the information will not only astonish honorable members, but render them dissatisfied with the position. If a tender is put in for so important a work, inquiries should be made as to who the tenderers are, what they have to offer, and whether what they have to offer is worth accepting at any price. We were told that the tender was accepted because it was the cheapest; but my experience is that the cheapest is not always the best. It- was also stated that oversea vessels installed with the system have visited Australian ports, and that the contractors now have a station at Sydney operating under licence for experimental purposes. I fancy that if honorable members knew what that station is, they would laugh. I am told that there are a few private stations operating in Melbourne, some of them for 100 feet, and others, perhaps, for 100 yards; and, under the circumstances, considering that we require a station operating over a 1,200-mile radius, I do not see what this little experimental station has to do with the case. On the 8th November I asked the following questions, as reported in Hansard, page 5738 :-

Has the site for the proposed wireless telegraph station .it Fremantle been finally decided upon ‘by the Government and accepted by the contractors ?
If the site is fixed, when will the work be put in hand?
What is the amount of the contract for the Fremantle station?
On what date was the tender accepted?
On what date was the contract signed ?
What is the date for the completion of the contract ?
On what date was the deposit of One hundred pounds paid ?

The replies were : -

No.
See answer to No. 1.
The amount of the accepted tender for the Fremantle station is ^4,150.
On 4th April, 1910.
The formal deed of contract has not been signed yet. See answer to No. 1.
Fifty-two weeks from the date of the acceptance of the tender.
1st March, 1910

Mr Mathews:

– It was not this Government who accepted the contract.

Mr HEDGES:

– No, but it was this Government who gave the ^2,000. I desire to know why this contract has not been signed - if it was a contract - because in the supposed tender form there is the following provision: -

The deposit …. will be absolutely forfeited to the Postmaster-General should the tender be withdrawn, or should the person whose tender is accepted fail to have the bond and agreement referred to in the next succeeding clause completed to the satisfaction of the PostmasterGeneral within fourteen days after the receipt- of the notice from the PostmasterGeneral that the bond and agreement are ready for signature.

Why has that not been carried out? It appears to me that the whole thing is a muddle, and that the proposal was not intended to be carried out. For instance, it is stipulated that the contractors shall proceed with the work or forfeit ,£500; but, at the same time, the whole amount on deposit is only £100 in the form of a “ cheque, bank draft, or banker’s certificate.” It apparently is at the option of the contractor whether the document he deposits is of any value, because “ in the form of a cheque “ does not mean anything of value. In all the contracts that I have had to do with, the deposit had to be in the form of a bank’s cheque, a deposit receipt, or something of value. Another stipulation is that the person whose tender is accepted will be required to enter into a bond in a form approved by the PostmasterGeneral, with two sureties, for the due performance of all the conditions; yet we are told eight or nine months after the tender has been accepted that the bond has not been completed. Then, I am told that there are many conditions in the contract absolutely impossible to carry out. One condition is -

Preference will be given to a system in which waves equal in power but differing in length by more than a stated percentage, preferably not exceeding 3 per cent., may be rendered noninterfering at will.

There is no such thing in the world as a system that is non-interfering at will : and the officers of the Department ought to have been aware of the fact. The question is whether this is a tender, a contract, an offer, or a recommendation. It is left to the tenderer to suggest the exact location of the station, and it is said that preference will be given to sites that are easy of access, adjacent to existing telegraph lines, and within easy reach of some settled township. That infers that a station might be built which was not within easy reach of a township.

Mr Webster:

– Would that not be a matter left to the officer in charge?

Mr HEDGES:

– A contract should be clear and specific, and nothing should be left to the contractor. A man who cannot write out a specification should not undertake the work. It is .provided that the contractor shall provide one fully competent officer to take charge of each installation for a period of three months from the date on which the installation is complete and ready for tests; but paragraph 39 provides -

The contractors shall keep the whole of the installations in good order and condition, and shall make good any defects which may arise in any part of the installations, including those defects which may be due to fair wear and tear or the normal operation of the plant for a period of twelve months -from .the date on which they were complete and ready for test.

Can we find .a contractor in the world who would be responsible for twelve months after some one else has had the running of the work? Another condition is that the tenderer is to supply such reserve or spare parts as he may consider to be necessary ; but if ,a man has his business at heart, how many spare parts will he supply if the matter be left to him? Here is another condition to which honorable members should pay attention - .and I know that there is an electrical engineer amongst honorable members opposite -

Although tenderers are desired to submit offers providing complete power plants, including prime movers for each station, it may be possible, when the sites of the stations have been definitely fixed, to arrange for electric supply thereto, in which case the successful tenderer will be desired to quote a price at which he will provide electrically driven .power plants instead of those using separate prime movers.

I have submitted this contract to experts in wireless telegraphy. I know a little about specifications, but it has never been my luck to have such a document as that to sign. If it had been, I should not have finished the job yet. The Minister, or some one speaking for him, made the statement that the Telefunken, the German system accepted by the Commonwealth Government, had been used in fitting up 40 per cent, of the wireless stations in the world. That statement could have been made only to mislead the members of this Parliament, and I challenge the Minister or bis officers to prove it. Ninety per cent, of the wireless telegraphy stations in the world are fitted with other systems. I have the following incomplete list of the lines of steamers on which the Marconi system is in operation : -

Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company; White Star Line; Cunard Line,; Aberdeen Line; Red Star Line; Canadian Pacific Railway, 20 ships ; Allan Line ; Dominion Line ; Atlantic Transport Line; Booth Line, 17 fitting; Anchor Line; Royal Mail Steam Packet Company ; Wilson Line ; Bowring Line ; Batavia Line ; Thomson Line ; Donaldson Line ; Blue Funnel Line ; Orient Line ; Union Castle Line, 23 fitting; Norddeutscher Lloyd, 17 ships; Hamburg-American, 18 ships; Hollandische Lloyd ; Austrail Lloyd Steamship Company ; HollandAmerican Line; National Steam Navigation Company ; Hellenic Transatlantic Steam Navigation Company; Netherland Company Line ; Compagnie Generale Transatlantique ; Cypren Fabre Company ; Rotterdam Lloyd ; American Line ; Hodart and Parkers ; Navigatione Generale Italian a, 14 ships; Austro-Americana, 7 ships, Sicula Americana Line; La Veloce, 8 ships; Lloyd Italiano, 8 ships; Societa di Navi gazione Italia, 7 ships; Lloyd Sabando, 6 ships Alfred Holt and Company; Bibby Line; British, naval stations; Belgian Government, 10 ships; Canadian Government, 7 ships; Dominion Government; Chilian Government; Italian Government; Sicilian Railways; -United States, 79 boatsfitting now (about 7th October) ; Uruguay ; Argentine; Anglo-American Oil Company; Telegraph Construction and Maintenance Company ; indiarubber Works Telegraph Company.

The Marconi operators are not allowed to connect with any other system, ‘except in. case of distress.

Mr Fowler:

– Have not the GermanSteamship Company’s vessels been fitted with the German system?

Mr HEDGES:

– No. They are using, the Marconi system. They cannot use the other. Lloyd’s people, who asked for permission to establish their station at. Fremantle, have stations of their own all over Great Britain, and, in fact, all over theworld. All the post-offices in Great Britain that are equipped are fitted with, the Marconi system, as are all the vesselsand light-houses at Home. There are about, thirty stations in Canada. In view of that fact, it is a standing disgrace to usthat we have not one station here. How can we compete with or get ahead of Canada if we are so behind her in such matters ?” We have been informed that 40 per cent, of the vessels of the world are installed with- the Telefunken system, but, in a calculation made on eight voyages across theAtlantic to Canada, the average number of communications upon each voyage was tenper day, and these were all Marconi. It has taken us in Australia about five years to do nothing, but, knowing that ships often went to England and came back fitted with wireless apparatus, I inquired how long it took to make the installation on a vessel. I was told that it took two days. WhenI said, “ That is rather quick, is it not?” my informant said, “ Well, say three days.” The system usually installed on vessels operates over a radius of 400 miles, but when the climatic conditions are favorable the radius is extended even up to 1,000 miles. We were told the other day that a grant of ^2,000 had been allowed to the Sydney company - God knows what for. They have not signed the contract, and I suppose they have been promised the ^2,000 if they will sign it. We were told that one of the reasons was that they had to make some special earth connexions. I took the trouble, at great expense, to find out what the necessary earth connexions were, and found that they amounted to nothing. They are so trivial that those concerned could not put a value on them. On a boat all the “earth connexion” necessary is made by connecting a wire with one of the girders, and in this case there is no more earth connexion necessary than is involved in burying a sheet of iron, copper, or other metal, or attaching a wire to an underground pipe. The regulations of the Postmaster-General of Great Britain provide that, before a wireless station can be installed by any private person in the United Kingdom, or on board a ship registered in the United Kingdom, a licence must be obtained. The regulation here is similar. Let me tell the House who the people comprising the “ Australian Wireless Limited “ are. They are supposed to be the people who have secured the contract. The information in my possession is as follows : - 25th October, 1910, Underwood-street. - This is a limited liability company registered on 15th December, 1909, with a nominal capital of £5,000 divided into £1 shares.

I should like honorable members to note the date, as it was pretty soon after the time when we passed money on the Estimates, or agreed to let contracts -

Objects. - To purchase and acquire rights in connexion with wireless telegraphy and telephony, and to establish and maintain stations for the purpose thereof, &c. Shareholders to the Memorandum of Association : - H. R. Denison, 1 ; W. McLeod, 1 ; F. W. Staerker, 1 ; R. W. King, 1 ; F. W. B. Humphrey, 1 ; William Wright, 1; A. W. Perriam, 1.

This was a preliminary canter. It is stated that the object for which the company was formed was to establish and maintain wireless telegraphy stations in Australia, yet we have passed an Act providing that the Postmaster-General shall have the exclusive privilege of erecting, maintaining, and using stations arid appliances for the purpose of transmitting messages by wireless telegraphy within ‘ Australia, and receiving messages so transmitted. That being so, these people formed a syndicate to do something which the PostmasterGeneral has. the exclusive right to do.

Mr Mahon:

– Then they had nothing to sell?

Mr HEDGES:

– No. The statement continues -

Under an agreement dated 3rd February, 1910, and made between F. W. Staerker and Martin Becker, trading as “ Staerker and Fischer,” Sydney, of the first part, H. R. Denison, A. S. F. Wheeler, and William McLeod, of the second part, and the company, whereas the firstnamed parties have entered into negotiations with Die Gesellschaft fur Drahtlose Telegraphic G.M.C.H., Berlin, (known as the Telefunken Company of Berlin), for the purchase from them of certain rights and privileges in connexion with the Telefunken patents to which that company were entitled within the Commonwealth of Australia -

How can they be entitled to such rights, in view of the fact that they are held only by the Postmaster-General? - and other British Pacific Possessions, and whereas parties of the second part have already incurred considerable expense and provided the means for initiating and carrying out the purchase of the proposed options on terms that they should be the owners and entitled to the benefits of such option -

As the time allowed me under the Standing Orders has expired, I should like leave to continue my remarks for a quarter of an hour.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Is it the pleasure of the House that the honorable member have leave to continue his remarks?

Honorable Members. - Hear, hear !

Mr HEDGES:

– The statement continues; - it is provided that the company shall purchase all rights and interests mentioned for a sum of £4,500, which shall be considered as satisfied by the issue to parties of the second part of 4,500 fully paid shares.

Registered shareholders in the concern as at 16th May, 1910, were as follows : -

By resolution passed 2nd May, 1910, the capital of the company was increased to ^12,000 by the creation of 7,000 additional shares of £1 each.

Those particularly interested in the undertaking are Mr. H. R. Denison, who has been for some time prominently identified with the British Australasian Tobacco Company Proprietary Limited, as managing director and a large shareholder, and Mr. William McLeod, who has been for many years the manager of the Bul letin Newspaper Company, of which he is a principal shareholder. All this information with which I have supplied the House ought to have been obtainable by a Government Department, yet, whilst twofifths of the rest of the world has installed another system, a tender by newspaper and tobacco people to install a German system here has been accepted. Surely fuller information should have been available to the Department? We have the further statement -

The company undertakes the fitting up of wireless telegraph stations, and has obtained Government contracts for. the establishment of two centres, one at Pennant Hills, near Sydney, and another at Fremantle, Western Australia. This work will involve an outlay of ^12,000 or ^15,000.

Yet we were told that the company must receive additional payment because the site originally chosen had not been selected, and the station was to be erected at Pennant Hills. My information is that one station is to be established at Pennant Hills, near Sydney, and another at Fre- mantle. It is stated that this work will cost £12,000. How can that statement be correct, in view of .the fact that the contract price in each case is only £4,150? -

An apparatus has also been provided for the Union Steam-ship Company’s liner Ulimaroa.

That is their record. They can point to only one company that has had a vessel : fitted with this system.

Mr Mathews:

– Can the honorable member show that these people are not fit to carry on the work?

Mr HEDGES:

– I defy the Government to install in Australia such a system as this. It would be a standing disgrace to the Commonwealth if the Government installed here a system which is not approved or used by the British Government, and by which no British man-of-war would dare to communicate with our stations in time of trouble, or, indeed, at any time.

Mr Batchelor:

– The honorable member is wrong. All the experts are against him.

Mr HEDGES:

– I challenge the Government to install the Telefunken system in Australia. It is a disgrace to the Commonwealth that the Ministry that was in office when this tender was received was not protected and prevented from accepting it. It is a disgrace, too, that a proposal should be made to hand over to these people £^2,000 to induce them to go on with the work, in view of the fact that they have not signed the contract. I trust that the Government of the day will cancel the contract, and let the syndicate take what proceedings they, please. Let them prove that they are entitled to compensation. In any event, they could not be entitled to much, in view of the fact that they desire £2,000 to help them to carry out the work. Had they completed the work in a satisfactory manner, the Ministry might have said to them, “ If you have lost money over the contract we shall be prepared to help you, subject to the approval of Parliament.”

Mr Fairbairn:

– But the contract has not been signed.

Mr HEDGES:

– No. By some kind of back-door influence they have been able to secure a promise of ,£2,000 to help them to carry on a contract that has never been signed. When a small amount is required for a postal improvement, or to provide for a country telephone service, provision has to be made for the work on the Estimates, yet these people, who have really nothing to offer, have been promised ,£2,000 if they will carry out a contract which they have not signed. Under the conditions the contract could have been cancelled within fourteen days of its acceptance, owing to the neglect of the tenderers to proceed with the work. If a small up-country contractor desired to delay for six or eight months’ the carrying out of a .contract into which he had entered, what treatment would he receive at the hands of the Department ? I contend that the action taken in this connexion is most unfair, and that it would not have been sanctioned but for the fact that certain Bulletin and tobacco people are at the back of the movement. The people of Australia will be interested to learn how this syndicate worked their scheme, and how, in the first place, they secured any consideration whatever for their tender, in view of the fact that at the time they had no Australian rights in connexion with the system. The syndicate was formed to purchase the rights, and my information is that it is designed to exploit the Commonwealth. It has been formed really to exploit’ a power which is vested only in the Postmaster-General. Under the Commonwealth Act, the Postmaster-General has the sole right to establish wireless telegraphy in Australia, and yet these people are to install a system which will not enable us to communicate with British vessels. The German Government are about to establish the Telefunken system in Samoa, and a number of the German war-ships have also installed the same system. On the other hand, the Marconi system has been adopted by the steam-ship companies to which I have referred, many of which may be called upon at any time to supply transports for the British Government. In the circumstances, it must be recognised that they would adopt only such a system as would work in harmony with that adopted by the British Admiralty. It is unfair for us to ask the British Admiralty to co-operate with us if we are going to install the Telefunken system. If the authorities here consider that system the best, why was the Marconi system installed on the Parramatta and the Yarra? Apparently anything that is done abroad can be done well, but anything left to local authorities is muddled. Yet honorable members opposite profess to be able to manage all the affairs of Australia ! Today 90 per cent, of the business of the world is done by the Marconi system. An American system tried to get a footing, but did not succeed. Some time ago some information leaked out, and the authorities knew that the operator on one particular steamer must be responsible for the leakage. Inquiries were made as to who he was, and he was instantly removed from his position. We hope that trouble with other nations will never happen again, but should it arise, we should not like to have our wireless communications carried on by a foreign system in charge of foreigners. The Marconi system is the universal system. I ask the House to treat this matter seriously. I have not brought it forward as a party move; I regard it as of great importance to the interests of Australia. The present condition of affairs is scandalous, and, I trust, will soon be altered.

Mr THOMAS:
PostmasterGeneral · Barrier · ALP

– I am very pleased that the honorable member has moved the adjournment to bring this matter forward. As the result of the expressed wish of Parliament, my predecessor, on 14th September, 1909, called for tenders for the installation of two wireless telegraph stations. The specifications were drawn up by the officers of the Department, and draft copies submitted to the British Admiralty and to the Defence Department here. The alterations suggested by the Admiralty were two in number ; one was that to clause 25 words should be added making it clear that the conditions applied to both sending and receiving, and the other that in clause 26 preference should be given to a system which would emit a definite musical note. It has been stated in the press that this last provision was inserted by the officers of my Department in order to give the . Telefunken system a better chance, but it is the Admiralty that is responsible for it. I think that the House will be of opinion that the late Postmaster-General was justified in agreeing to specifications which had passed the review of the Admiralty and of the Defence Department. Among the conditions was one to the effect that the station at Sydney should be located between the South Head of the entrance to Port Jackson and Botany Bay, and another that the station at Fremantle should not be more than s miles from the Fremantle postoffice. Those conditions were submitted to both Admiral Poore and the Defence Department here, and special attention was drawn to them. The honorable member for Parramatta was Minister of Defence at the time, and a letter signed by the Secretary to the Defence Department was received by my Department, stating that the Department was satisfied with the specifications, and that they would meet its requirements, while the Admiral of the station, to whom a copy of the draft agreement was sent, through the Governor-General, replied -

With regard to the Sydney site, there would appear to be several good positions on either the North or the South Head. As regards height, North Head would be the better, but South Head would probably be more convenient, as the necessary power could easily be obtained from the existing tramway mains in the vicinity.

He added -

For the’ purpose of economy it was assumed that at both Fremantle and Sydney the power would be obtained from existing, power stations and mains.

Tit all to carry it out. I gather that nothing has been done.

Mr Fowler:

– Something has been done. The company have got £2,000 out of the Government, and we cannot find out what for.

Sir JOHN FORREST:

The Telefunken system must certainly be recognised as one of the leading systems, if not the leading system, of the world. The relative merits of the various systems are, however, beyond our province, but we can safely say that in the race for pre-eminence both the Tele- price tendered in respect of another locality.

Mr. THOMAS laid upon the table the following papers : -

Post and Telegraph Act - Regulations Amended (Provisional) -

General - Sunday Arrangements - Postal -

Statutory Rules 1910, No. 97.

Money Orders, Office Hours - Statutory Rules 1910, No. 102.

page 6112

QUESTION

DEFENCE DEPARTMENT

Instructional Staff - Rifle Range, Narrogin - Accommodation for Destroyers in Hobson’s Bay - Manoeuvre Area, Liverpool.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, upon notice -

Is it true that members of the Instructional Staff who joined under the Victorian Regulations have been denied warrant rank, notwithstanding the fact that they have completed ten years’ service ?
Is not such denial a. breach of faith?
Were Western Australian instructors, who had been appointed warrant officers on joining the staff before Federation, in coming over allowed to retain that rank ?
If so, why have Victorians been denied such warrant rank?
What is intended to be done to keep faith with these men?

Mr FRAZER:
Minister (without portfolio) · KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are - 1, 2, 4, and 5- The claims of these instructors have been thoroughly investigated, and it has been found that they are not entitled to promotion to warrant rank. The Crown Solicitor, to whom the question was referred, is also of opinion that they have no claim to the promotion.

Yes, for the reason that they were allowed to retain their rank like all other warrant officers who were serving in States prior to the taking over of the Military Forces by the Commonwealth.

Mr ATKINSON:
for Sir John Forrest

asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, upon notice -

Whether a rifle range is to be provided for the riflemen at Narrogin, Western Australia ?
Whether it is a fact that forty riflemen at that place are seriously hampered by reason of no range being provided?
If no range is to be provided, how is it proposed to encourage rifle practice at that important centre?

Mr FRAZER:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are - 1, 2, and 3. The Narrogin Rifle Club has at present the use of a range which is only about miles from the township. The club, however,, desires a range to be constructed on a new site, but this is not recommended by the Commandant, and no provision has been made for the expenditure that would be necessitated in the acquisition of a sufficient area of land to insure safety together with the cost of constructing the new range.

Whenever it is possible land for rifle club ranges is leased or permissive occupancy is obtained, as the acquisition of land in every similar case throughout the Commonwealth would involve an enormous expenditure of public money.

Mr WEST:
for Mr. Howe

asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, upon notice -

Has Captain Creswell reported that there is no place in Victoria where destroyers can lie to undergo outfit- no sheltered place, only open anchorage in Hobson’s Bay?
1. Is the Naval Dep6t , at Williamstown made untenable owing to the Railways Commissioners owning the small space available, utilizing it for railway purposes?
Is it correct that the only available spot must be dredged to the depth of 20 feet before it can be utilized ?
Has Mr. ‘ Murray, Premier of Victoria, granted the use of State piers at Williamstown for overhaul and refitting, also docking accommodation ?
If so, why have not the St’ate authorities of New South Wales been asked for the use of wharfage, docking, and gear accommodation at Cockatoo Dock?
What is the experience of the Commonwealth employes who will undertake the refitting of the destroyers?
Is not Cockatoo Dock the best fitted and most experienced establishment for the performance of such refitting?
Will the Minister see, in view of the facts of the case, that Sydney be given equal facilities to deal with repairs, refitting, and general overhaul of Commonwealth war vessels?

Mr FRAZER:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

No.
No ; the arrangement made with the State Government obviates any difficulty.
No.
Yes.
Because the Commonwealth has its own shops at .Williamstown, and only needed the berthage accommodation referred to above.
They have experience as seamen and marine engineers.
This is a question of opinion which the Minister does not feel called upon to answer.
The whole question as to where repairs, re fitting, &c, should be carried out permanently is a matter referred by the Government to Admiral Sir Reginald Henderson, K.C.B., for report and advice.

Mr. JOHN THOMSON (for ‘ Mr.

Fuller) asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

In regard to the negotiations between the Federal Government and the New South Wales Government concerning the manoeuvre area at Liverpool -

Has it been definitely arranged that the New South Wales Government shall resume and lease to the Federal Government the land ‘required ?

When is it likely the resumption will take place ?

Have the boundaries of the land required to be resumed been definitely fixed?

If so, will the Minister lay on the table of the House a map, accompanied by definite descriptions, showing the area proposed to be resumed ?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

It has practically been arranged that the New South Wales Government shall dedicate certain Crown lands, also resume and lease to the Commonwealth certain private land.
Negotiations as to rental are still proceeding with the State Government.
Yes.
It is not considered desirable to do so until the actual resumptions by the State have taken place.

page 6113

QUESTION

POSTMASTER-GENERAL’S DEPARTMENT

Promotion of “ Country,” “ Ship,” and Sorting Room Officers - Telephone Spindles - Increments

Mr FENTON:

asked the PostmsterGeneral, upon notice -

What are the conditions governing an examination for promotion in the “country” room of the General Post Office?
What are the conditions governing an examination for promotion in the “ ship “ room of the General Post Office?
What are the conditions governing an examination for promotion in the room for sorting city letters ?
Will the Minister see that men employed in special work in each of the rooms named have facilities afforded for special examinations in rooms mentioned in order to give an equal opportunity to all officers to pass tests?

Mr THOMAS:
ALP

– In reply to the honorable member’s questions, the Commonwealth Public Service Commissioner has furnished the following information : - 1, 2, and 3. Officers in these branches are required to pass the prescribed sorting test at the rate of forty-five letters per minute, with a maximum of 2 per cent, of errors.

To qualify for promotion as Senior Sorter it is necessary that sorters should pass an examination proving their efficiency in general sorting. It is not desirable to sectionalize sorting examinations. Officers should be competent to perform the duties applicable to the sorting work of the Mail Branch generally, and this would not be possible under a system of specialized tests.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the old type of insulator was known as the “ parallel “ threaded insulator?
Is it a fact that the tender of Noyes Bros, was accepted for 630,000 insulators’ with a “tapered” thread to be delivered on 22nd August, 1910?
Is it a fact that when this order was placed, spindles of the “ parallel “ threaded type were being supplied by a Brunswick firm, and that when the new insulators came to hand it was found that the “parallel” spindles and the tapered insulators would not fit?
Is it a fact that although the Department obtained 2,000 tapered spindles from the Brunswick contractor at increased cost as the die had to be altered, the balance of the spindles were of the “parallel” type?
Is it a fact that, with the exception of 2,000, the whole of the “ parallel “ spindles must have the thread pared with paring machines before they can be used?
What is the difference in value between the spindle with the thread intact and with a large portion of the thread pared away. What is the difference in its estimated life?
Have not the linemen to file or pare away the thread of the spindle whenever a new insulator is used?
Were not the 630,000 new insulators distributed among the States in the following manner : - New South Wales, 470,000 ; Victoria, 100,000; South Australia, 15,000; Western Australia, 35,000; Tasmania, 5,000?
Does not the difficulty experienced in Victoria apply to the other States as well?

Mr THOMAS:

– The Deputy PostmasterGeneral, Melbourne, has furnished the following information in regard to questions 1 to 8, viz. : -

Yes. This insulator is known as Victorian Sealed Pattern No. 25.

The Chief Electrical Engineer, however, reports that the thread of the insulator, Victorian Sealed Pattern No. 25, is not parallel,’ but tapers.

The contract No. 89 for 634,000 telephone insulators was let to Noyes Bros, for all States on the 15th December, 1909. The dates for delivery to the different States are set forth in schedule No. 236. For Victoria, delivery was to be as follows :- 20,000 earliest date from notification of acceptance of tender (15th December, 1909). 40,000 in four months. 40,000 in five months.
The contractor for the supply of spindles of the “ parallel “ threaded type, Mr. Williams, has had the contract for spindles, Commonwealth Sealed Pattern No. 359, for the last four or five years. A portion of the annual supply was made prior to the insulators with tapered thread being received. The tapered thread insulators did not fit the “ parallel “ spindles. They were called to Commonwealth Sealed Pattern No. 17, Specification No. 321.
Two thousand spindles, tapered thread, were obtained from the contractor to fit the new insulator in order that urgent work could be proceeded with. They were supplied without additional cost to the Department. If the die was altered, or new die made, no reference regarding same was made to the Melbourne office by the contractor. The balance of the spindles were of the “parallel” type.
It is not a fact that the whole of the “ parallel “ spindles, with the exception of 2,000, had to be pared.
The respective values cannot be stated; it may be said that when pared all the threads do not engage with the threads of the tapered insulator, but the tapered insulator takes a fairly good hold. The life would net be affected.
The linemen have- to pare the “ parallel “ spindle to get it into the tapered insulator.
The insulators were distributed to the various States as follows : - New South Wales, 478,000; Victoria, 100.000; South Australia, 16,000; Western Australia, 35,000; Tasmania, 5,000. Total, 634,000.
The experience in other States has been substantially similar to that in Victoria.

Mr FENTON:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Has the Postmaster-General investigated the complaints of the fourth and higher class officers in his Department regarding the system that was adopted in granting increments for the current financial year?
Has the matter been considered by the Cabinet, and with what result?
Will he obtain the opinion of the AttorneyGeneral with respect to the legality of the policy

Df the Public Service Commissioner, as disclosed in returns furnished to this House, of withholding increments from the third and fourth class officers in alternate years ?

Mr THOMAS:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow. : -

Yes; and, so far as I can ascertain, no departure has been made as to the system followed this year in granting increments as compared with previous years.
The question of the salaries to be paid Commonwealth officers is regulated by law, and placed in the hands of the Public Service Commissioner.
It is not considered that a legal opinion is necessary. The law does not provide for annual increments to officers in the higher classes, and the Public Service Commissioner is acting within the powers conferred upon him in not granting advances in salaries where he is satisfied that the merits of the case or the value of the work will not justify promotion.

Mr MCDOUGALL:
for Mr. Anstey

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

In conjunction with bis statement that merit, efficiency, and the value of the work performed determine the promotion of officers in the 4th and higher classes of the Public Service, what is the explanation of the Public Service Commissioner regarding the remarkable evenness which characterizes the percentages of increments granted to officers in the 3rd and 4th classes of the Postmaster-General’s Department in Victoria, viz. : - 4th Class - 1909, increments granted, 80 per cent. ; 1910, increments granted, 40 per cent. 3rd Class - 1909, increments granted, 20 per cent. ; 1910, increments granted, 40 per cent. ?
What action does the Government intend to take to insure that the claims for increments for the current financial year shall be investigated under a fair and reasonable system, and will the Government provide funds accordingly?
Is it a fact that the Heads of Departments were instructed that only a certain number of recommendations were to be submitted for subdivisional promotion in the classes named. If w, by whom were such instructions issued?

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow :-

No action has been taken to establish a fixed percentage. In granting increments no question of proportion was considered, the case of every officer being dealt with on its merits.
It is considered the existing system is both fair and reasonable, and the proper one in the public interest. There is no intention of departing from the present procedure in regard to the assessment of the value of officers’ positions.
No such instruction was issued.

page 6115

QUESTION

TOWN FIRE BELL, GLADSTONE

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Postmaster-. General, upon notice -

Will the Minister kindly state the reasons for refusing permission for the erection of a town fire-bell on the piece of land between the Post Office and the Queensland National Bank, Gladstone, Central Queensland ?

Mr THOMAS:
ALP

-The Deputy PostmasterGeneral, Brisbane, reported that the erection of a town fire-bell structure in the position referred to would be a menace from fire, and that the few feet of spare land in question should, in his opinion, be kept clear as a break in case of fire, that side being the only one on which the office is in danger.

page 6115

QUESTION

GOVERNMENT HOUSES :’ SYDNEY AND MELBOURNE

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

What are the details of the “ non-recurring works “ - Government Houses, Sydney and Melbourne, 1906-7, £1,110 ditto, 1907-8, ^961; ditto, 1908-9, £2,771?
What are the non-recurring works, 1910-11 - Government House, Sydney, £1,357 > Government House, Melbourne, ^2,000?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– I lay the information on the table of the House in the form of the following return: -

page 6116

QUESTION

MILLERS’ ASSOCIATION

Alleged Restraint of Trade

Mr MCDOUGALL:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the Millers’ Association is restraining trade by employing coercive trust methods to regulate prices and destroy competition ?
Has his attention been drawn to the “official “ quotations of the Millers’ Association as published in the daily papers?
Will he ascertain what firms are represented by the Millers’ Association and investigate their trading and financial relations with each other?
Will he inquire into the trading practices of the said association in regard to the following matters : - (a) its treatment of millers not associated with the ring; (b) its alleged method of coercing bakers and others trading with such millers; (c) its system of wholesale and retail selling; (d) its prices of flour sold for local use and for export; (e) its arrangement with wheat buyers for buying rights at railway stations in certain wheat areas?
Is it true that the operations of the Millers’ Association extend beyond . Victoria ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– No information is to hand in relation to these matters, but inquiries are being made.

page 6116

DEFENCE BILL

Second Reading

Mr HUGHES:
Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General · West Sydney · ALP

– I move - .

That this Bill be now read a second time.

I feel it a very great honour and pleasure to have an opportunity to place a Bill of this kind before the House. The principles embodied have been extensively canvassed during the last two years, and have, one after the other, secured acceptance in the minds of an ever-increasing number of the electors of the Commonwealth, and of members of this House. I may be permitted to remind honorable members that, when the right “honorable member for Swan introduced a Defence Bill in 1903, I endeavoured to secure the incorporation of an amendment which, in essentials, embodied a provision which is now in the Amended Defence Act of 1909, and outlined the vital principles of the proposals in the measure -I now have the honour to lay before the Chamber. I merely point this out in* order to show how completely public opinion, both in the House and out of it, has changed during a comparatively brief period We may, therefore, assume that we have the amplest authority for this measure, and that it is, in the best sense of the term, a non-party one. I am pleased to note how, as time has gone on, those difficulties which divided honorable members in this House have one by one disappeared. We have now arrived at a rapprochement, so that, although I cannot say that every member of the House, or every elector in the country, favours this measure, it may be said, however, that no other has such an overwhelming support. In a speech made by me in D903, I referred to the defects of conscription as existing in continental . countries on the one hand, and to the dangers of a standing army on the other, in the following terms - Hansard, 1903, page 3095 :-

There “conscription” necessarily involves compulsory military service of a character that is destructive alike to the welfare of the nation and of the individual. It means that for a period of from three to five years their young men - the flower of their nation - are exposed to a most rigorous and senseless system of routine, which crushes out individual initiative, and subjects them to galling indignities and insults. In very many cases it results in the breaking of their spirits, and, in others, even goads them to suicide in their desire to escape from its thraldom. From every stand-point the effect of that system is a most damnable one. It takes an appreciable number of the wealth producers away from their ordinary avocations, and throws upon the remainder the burden of supporting mem. It also creates a military caste, an evil above all things to be avoided. In Australia recently there has been an unfortunate tendency - perhaps owing to the Boer war - to exalt the military ideal. The trappings of war, the gilt lace, and other embellishments which the Minister for Defence affects to despise, but for which in reality he entertains the greatest respect, the clanking sabre and the tinkling spurs, offer great attractions to the rising generation, who are imbued with the idea that war consists of walking down Bourke-street in a very smart uniform. They learn only when it is too late that there are other duties connected with military operations which are not of such an alluring character.

Seeing that we were at that time embodying in our legislation the principle of compulsory service, I asked that the House should agree to a system of compulsory training. It was proposed by the Govern ment that in an emergency every man between the ages of eighteen and sixty might be called to the colours, and I asked that some training should be provided, so that those summoned to fight for their country, should be something more than an enthusiastic mob. At that time, however, the idea found little or no favour. .1 think that there were, besides myself, only two who supported it. As years have gone on, circumstances have compelled the attention of the community to the matter, and effected a most notable change in public opinion. It is now realized that a citizen soldiery is the most effective means of guarding one’s country, and at the same time upholding constitutional and democratic government, which can never be firmly established when overawed or in danger pf being overawed by the power of a standing army.

I come now to the 1909 amendment of the existing Defence Act, introduced by the exMinister of Defence, the honorable member for Parramatta. He, long an opponent of this principle, became last year an enthusiastic advocate of it, and introduced a measure providing for compulsory training - compulsory service having long been the law of the country. Honorable members now on this side of the House, who were members of the Parliament last year, had the honour to point out that compulsory training, as introduced by the honorable member for Parramatta, was accompanied by . certain grave and almost fatal defects. As I showed at the time, there is nothing about compulsion in itself desirable, and that compulsory training, unless effective, was bad. It is worse than voluntary training if it carries us no farther.

The present law provides for the compulsory training of junior cadets between the ages of twelve and fourteen, and senior cadets from fourteen to eighteen, lt then takes a young man .entering his nineteenth year, and for two years subjects him to sixteen days’ training, which need not be continuous. There is no effective provision for continuous camp training, without which it is almost hopeless to expect to turn a man into a soldier. That defect was pointed out at the time, as was a defect, perhaps, even greater - that after you had made a man a soldier, if two years’ training could do it, you turned him adrift. An impossible and almost ludicrous condition of things was thus created, under which, after having spent your money on cadet training for him between the ages of twelve and eighteen, and during his nineteenth and twentieth years in making him fit to be a soldier, you turned him out just when he might be able to defend his country, with no organization to which he could attach himself. He became ah unattached, floating unit. No organization, no method of utilizing his services, was provided. He simply came up. when called upon, for one muster parade a year. That is the existing law.

It is true that the law has never been put into operation. The Act has not been proclaimed, and to-day remains in suspense in regard to that matter. Last year the Ministry availed themselves of the services of FieldMarshal Lord Kitchener, who was asked to advise the Ministry as to what needed to be done to defend Australia. He did this in his customary efficient and thoroughgoing fashion, and his report sets forth what is necessary in order to enable this country to be adequately defended. It is upon his recommendations that the Government have, to a large extent, framed this measure. The present forces consist of about 25,000 more or less trained men, scattered over the whole of this great continent. They have to defend the fixed fortresses, to form nuclei here and there for garrison and other duties, and to be available, should occasion arise, to be taken hither and thither to meet invasion. Such a force is numerically and in every other way unsuited to cope with a task of that magnitude, and has been uniformly admitted by every Minister of Defence for many years past to be most unsatisfactory, not from lack of - courage or efficiency to the extent to which it went, but from lack of numbers and equipment. Lord Kitchener gave the imprimatur of a soldier to the opinions of the civilians in this matter, when he said in Lis report, in paragraph 9 of his introductory remarks -

The conclusion I have come to is, shortly, that the present forces are inadequate in numbers, training, organization, and munitions of war, to defend Australia from the dangers that are due to the present conditions that prevail 5n the country, as well as to its isolated position.

There we get a clear condemnation of the present system from the man who has had almost as wide an experience of actual war as any English soldier now living. He sets forth what he conceives to be the essential features of a satisfactory force. He declares that, first of all, there must be sufficient training; secondly, that this training must extend over a sufficient period of time ; thirdly, that a means must be devised whereby non-commissioned and commissioned officers can be trained; and, lastly, that there must be a means whereby that instruction can be applied to the Citizen Forces. To that end he recommends that Australia shall be divided into 215 areas. To each of these areas an officer is attached. There are to be instructional schools in which men are to be trained to be non-commissioned officers. There is to be a military college where men are to be trained from their youth upwards to become officers. Lord Kitchener points out, as is obvious to any civilian of us all, that an officer cannot be made in a day. He says it is of no use to have an officer unless he joins for a period of not less than twelve years. He must be taken as a youth and trained, and then he can be utilized. It is proposed to officer our Citizen Force by Australians trained in the Australian Military College. It has been decided to establish the college in a particular locality, and provision is to be made there for the most effective and up-to-date tuition of our Australian youths for the serious business of defending their native country. Lord Kitchener reported that, in estimating the strength of the land forces necessary to meet our requirements, the three principal factors that should be considered were -

The great ocean distances which lie between Australia and the territory of any possible enemies.
The armed strength and power of transportation oversea of any conceivable hostile nation.
The vast extent, and railway communication, of the Australian Continent, which covers an area of 2,948,366 square miles, and possesses a coastline of r2,2io miles; as contrasted with the smallness of its population, 4,275,000 souls, of whom 1,295,000 are males of a fighting age.

It is necessary to defend our vast continent with the material at our hands, and Lord Kitchener states that not less than 80,000 fighting men are required for the purpose. Under the existing system we have 25,000, and they are inadequately armed, trained, and organized. The ex- Minister of Defence, speaking of the possibilities of mobilization, said that the existing system would inevitably break down, and the same statement was made by his predecessor in office, the present Minister of Defence, and also by Sir Thomas Ewing when he held that office. There can be no question as to the inadequacy of the present system, and we have now merely to consider what is to be put in its place. We have to remember that in quoting the opinions of Lord Kitchener we are quoting those of a practical man asked to give information about a matter that he understands as well as does any man living. He tells us that we require 80,000 fighting men, and, taking the Defence Act as his basis in constructing a scheme, he makes certain recommendations which, to a very large extent, have been embodied in this measure. I can the more readily ask the House to indorse those recommendations, because, speaking for myself, at all events, they are in accordance with views which, as a humble civilian, I have endeavoured times out of number to induce the House to adopt. None of them go far beyond the proposals that were made by the Fisher Ministry, which preceded the late Government. Dealing with the law, as amended by the Act of 1909, which provides that all male inhabitants shall be liable to be trained, from twelve years to fourteen years of age in the junior cadets, from’ fourteen to eighteen years of age in the senior cadets, and from eighteen to twenty years of age in the Citizen Forces, Lord Kitchener reported -

While the cadet training is valuable as a preparation, it cannot, in my opinion, replace recruit training,’ which is a necessary preliminary to the production of an efficient and trained citizen soldiery. For this reason, I class the 18-19-year men as recruits, over and above the peace establishment of 80,000 men, but liable to be put in the ranks in war.

In other words, the eighteen-nineteen-year men are not to be classed as soldiers. Lord Kitchener would have his army of 80,000 composed of men of the age of nineteen years and upwards.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– When there is fighting to be done, they are to be classed as soldiers:

Mr HUGHES:

– Yes, but not on a peace footing. On this point, let me quote from a speech which I delivered in this House on 13th October last, as reported in Hansard, vol. LIL, page 4467 . The honorable member for Boothby then interjected -

The honorable member would not count such cadets in estimating the war establishment of the country ?

I replied -

I would regard them as what they are, mere school boys. By no twisting of phrases, can they be made anything else. The experience of those connected with schools is that up to the age of fourteen a boy learns little and retains less, and it would be of no service to the lads were this training continued until they reach the age of eighteen years. But lads between the ages of fourteen and eighteen years are to form Senior Cadet Corps, which will have four whole-day, twelve half-day, and twentyfour night drills in the rear. I ask those who know what drilling means whether young men so trained will receive the equivalent of what is known as recruit drill? Certainly, they will not.

Later on, ‘ I said -

After all, with whom does he propose to fight our battles? With boys of between fourteen and eighteen years, with young men who have not received their training, or with young men who have just received eight days’ training? If it is to be with school boys, I venture to say the danger cannot be very real or imminent. If it is to be with men who have just completed this amount of training, then it is to be with volunteers, and, by the honorable gentleman’s own hypothesis, volunteers are useless, because his contention is that the volunteer system has broken down.

It was the opinion of our party at that time that the proposal put forward by the then Minister of Defence stopped short just at the point- at which we should be beginning- to make soldiers of our men. Between the ages of eighteen and nineteen years a youth would be given recruit drill, and from nineteen to twenty years of age he would begin to realize that he was a soldier, as it were, in contradistinction to the ordinary enthusiastic citizen. But when we had brought him with infinite difficulty to that point, we said to him, under the existing law, ‘« That will do, old fellow. When the whistle blows or the banner waves, you will attend a muster parade if you do not feel well enough to join the militia.” From what we know of our fellow-citizens, however, we may be sure that they would attend the muster parades, and leave the volunteer system to itself. The quotations I have made show that the conclusion which Lord Kitchener formed in this regard was perfectly plain, even to a civilian- that when you get your soldier - and you can only get him after recruit training - you should keep him, and fight your battles with, men between the ages of nineteen and twentysix years. In the course of the speech to which I have just referred, I made the further statement, as reported on page 4469, that -

After putting his men through various stages of training from the age of fourteen to the age of twenty years, and making them the material out of which soldiers can be made - for that is all that will have been done - they will not be available to fight if required to do so, because organization would be necessary, and no such organization is provided for in the Government scheme. The period of training should extend to the age of twenty-six years. The length of the period of training for those who are eighteen or nineteen years of age should be not less than sixteen days for two successive years.

This party is completely in accord . with the principles for which this measure provides. We advocated them when in Opposition, and crossing the Rubicon has not altered our opinion. That -is a matter for congratulation, and although not unique in the history of Governments, it is still not so common but that one may make a note of it.

We come now to the provisions of the Bill, and I invite honorable members to obtain copies of the measure showing in black type the alterations made in the principal Act. We propose, first of all, that eight of the sixteen days’ training per annum shall be spent continuously in camp, and that that training shall be undertaken from the ages of eighteen years to twenty-five years, instead of from eighteen to twenty years, as provided in the measure passed last session. In other words, we shall have seven years of continuous training instead of two, and those between the ages of twenty-five and twenty-six years must attend a muster parade. Under this system we shall secure a body of men who have been trained in some fashion from the ages of twelve years to twenty-six years, and who have been seriously trained as soldiers from the ages of eighteen years to twenty-six years. At the age of nineteen years they will have passed out of the recruit stage, and we shall thus have a body of 80,000 fighting men fitted both by training and by age to defend the country. I come now to the proposal to divide the Commonwealth into areas, and to the duties of area officers. These are very important. The area officers must have a thorough knowledge of all that goes to make up the art of military science. Lord Kitchener lays considerable stress on the necessity for obtaining for this work the best possible men. I do not hesitate to say that just as an educational system, no matter how admirable it may be, must depend for its success upon the capacity of its teachers, so we shall be unable to secure an effective system of defence unless we have as officers men who command the respect of those under them by virtue of the possession of the intellectual, moral, and physical qualities necessary to make a successful soldier. Lord Kitchener details as follows the work which the area officers will have to perform -

The inspection of the junior cadets training in the schools.

The organization and training of the senior cadets.

The enrolment, equipment, and training of the adult from eighteen to nineteen years of age.

The equipment, organization, and training of the trained soldier from nineteen to twenty-five years of age.

The supervision ‘ of the registration of all male inhabitants under clause 142 of the Act.

The maintenance of lists of males twenty-five to twenty-six years of age who have just completed their training.

Communication to other areas of all changes of residence of men under training, with particulars of their military proficiency.

Information regarding the numbers, residence, and classification of the reserve men in the areas, and the organization and maintenance of rifle clubs.

A thorough acquaintance with the inhabitants of his area.

In paragraph 42 of his report, he states that-

The proposed organization contemplates the formation of 215 areas, which are required to produce a fighting force of 80,000 men. The officers in charge of each of these areas may be of the rank of captain or lieutenant. In addition, twenty-two majors will be required, one to supervise every ten areas. The six district staffs require twenty.five officers, mostly of field rank; head-quarters will absorb twelve; the Military College eight; and the Permanent Forces (on the present scale) forty-eight.

There is all due provision with regard to officers to be promoted above the rank of major, but what guarantee have we that those who now occupy the highest positions are fit for those positions, and are not keeping out fitter men ? In Committee, I propose to move an amendment - and I hope the Government will accept it, seeing that honorable members opposite supported a similar proposal in the last Parliament - guaranteeing that existing officers shall, within a reasonable time, prove their fitness in practical work - not in mere theoretical examination - for their present commands.

One of the troubles we have in considering defence problems in a House such as this is the difficulty in obtaining proper information from the Department. I do not think that Ministers realize, occasionally, the nature of the replies they give to honorable members who are seeking information. The other day, for instance, I asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence what provision was made in the Imperial Forces, and in our Forces, to insure officers being medically fit to undertake the arduous duties of active service? I was given a reply with regard to the Imperial Service, which I have no hesitation in characterizing as, if not a falsehood, at any rate, a very impudent evasion of the truth. I do not, of course, charge the Minister with being cognisant of the fact; because, I suppose, he must take the reply that is given to him on a technical subject and hand it on to the Chamber. The reply given to me was that in the Imperial Service officers are examined for their medical fitness before active service commences. Now that statement, unless widely amplified, is absolutely false; for in addition to that examination, every officer, once every year, is tested in that regard ; and that practice has gone on ever since the Boer war, when the unpreparedness, in physical respects, of certain officers led to difficulties in the conduct of the campaign. The system in vogue - which is one, perhaps, an ordinary member of Parliament might not be expected to unravel - is one of a confidential report from the regimental commander to the War Office once every year on a number of subjects, including physical fitness.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Is the honorable member going to connect his remarks with the question before the Chair?

Mr KELLY:

– I am certainly connecting my remarks, with the question of the defence of Australia in submitting that it is a matter of supreme importance that all officers should be fitted for the work they undertake.

– I profess absolutely no opinion. It would not be fair for me, in a Chamber of this character, to pass any reflections on our officers, either individually or collectively. I have always endeavoured to avoid that proposition, but I think we should insist on the medical, as “ well as the military, fitness of every officer i on the active list of the Commonwealth Forces. I sincerely hope that in the future provision will be made in that regard.

I see no power taken in this measure to insure that commanding officers of regiments shall report confidentially to head-quarters about the military and physical ‘fitness of officers under their command. That, 1 presume, would more properly be provided for by regulation, but I do not think that any such regulation is now in force in Australia.

Mr Roberts:

– We need to be very careful about confidential reports.

Mr KELLY:

– In the Imperial service, if the confidential report contains anything to the detriment of an officer, it must be. shown to him, and he is able to state his case in reply. With that condition, such reports would be invaluable to those who have to administer this growing Department in Australia.

Mr Ozanne:

– Why should not that condition apply to the men also?

Mr KELLY:

– It is not so important in the case of the men.

Mr Mathews:

– They are generally younger, too.

Mr KELLY:

– I want honorable members clearly to understand that the question of physical fitness is only one of the subjects dealt with in the yearly confidential report.- An officer’s fitness in particular directions, whether he is a good regimental officer, whether it is thought he would be better in some other position, and other such matters, are also reported upon. After all, it would involve more labour than would be justified to apply that system to the rank and file of our Forces. It is in vogue in Great Britain, in order to guarantee the efficiency of the officers.

Mr Archibald:

– And who reports on the colonels? _ Mr. KELLY. - The colonel’s commanding officer reports in turn upon him. The whole system is clearly laid out in the King’s Regulations, although the form of the report is not given. I hope that in the future the Government will insure action being taken in this regard, so that head-quarters may satisfy themselves of the efficiency of all the officers in the Austra.lian Forces.

– The difficulty connected with horse-breeding in the MacDonnell Ranges country would be that of keeping the horses under sufficient supervision, because it would take a considerable number of acres to carry one horse. For training horses on the alleged Arabian system of allowing them to . run wild in the desert, certain sections of the MacDonnell Ranges country would, however, be eminently suitable. In good seasons, horses would live there, but God help them in bad seasons. Still, it is good, limestone country, where horses of a rather effective type could be reared. In Germany, they have a system of numbering similar to that followed in the breeding of race-horses. They know that such-and-such a breed of horse may well be put with suchandsuch a mare, and the directors of the breeding establishment understand thoroughly what is required in order to produce horses for artillery, transport, cavalry, and other purposes. They know definitely what they are likely to obtain by crossing certain types of horses, and the result is that Germany now has a number of horses sufficient to meet the indefinite expansion that would be required by a great European war. I should like to see Australia, both for purposes of defence and for purposes of commerce, directing her attention to this question of breeding horses suitable for the military purposes of the Commonwealth.

– If there were anything, I do not think my honorable friend would hit it.

I have just this moment had placed in my hands, as showing the slipshod way in which these matters are dealt with, another epoch-making amendment of the Defence Act, as proposed by the Attorney-General. By the way, why has the Attorney- General introduced this Bill ? Why not the Minister who is understudying the Minister of Defence in this Chamber, and who is, or should be, conversant, by virtue of his office, with what has been recently happening in the Defence Department? Why is it that the Attorney-General wishes to exhibit himself to the Australian people as a sort of jack-of-all-trades, willing to take from one of the hardest- worked members of his Administration what little credit may attach to the introduction of such a measure? It is most unfair.

This peculiar epoch-making amendment which has just been circulated has something to do with the establishment of a Theological College, but I have not yet had time to peruse it.

When I look through the Bill to ascertain what matters have been dealt with in it, I find that the language of the principal Act in one or two cases has been changed. There has been put into the more perfect English of the Ministry a provision dealing with persons who shall be exempt from military service. The language of the principal Act was unsatisfactory, or possibly not on the basis that would appeal to the most earnest students of English grammar ! It has been revised by the Leader of the Government. A new series of clauses, making up perhaps the bulk of the measure, puts into different words the provisions of the Act. There are many omissions from the Bill, with some of which I have dealt, but, so far as the amendments are concerned, my honorable friends have merely exercised their ability to improve the verbiage and the grammar of that very effete measure which we are now tearing into the smallest of pieces ! No provision is made for a sufficient supply of area officers during the period which must elapse bef ore we can train our own. Power should have been taken to obtain from wherever desirable officers competent to act as area officers while our own officers are being trained, and thus to initiate the sound home training, the need for which was so strongly emphasized by Lord Kitchener. Unless a sufficient number of area officers is provided at once, the Teal initiation of the Defence scheme must be deferred for years ; it cannot start right away, though the popular impression is that it will do so.

Mr Hughes:

– The honorable member is quite inaccurate.

– In France a large number of men have been detailed from regimental and staff work to study the possibility of aerial navigation for army intelligence in the field.

I doubt whether the Government now have power to send special officers abroad to study these developments, but it should be empowered by law to appoint officers to proceed abroad to acquire information of this kind. I would send an officer or two to see the manoeuvres in France, Germany, America, and, lastly, in Great Britain ; because that country has lagged behind in aeronautics. I would give such officers a roving commission, instructing them to inform us, who are in the backwater of the river of scientific progress, of what is new, and to tell us what has passed from the experimental to the practical stage. The money spent on their salaries and travelling expenses would, perhaps, be among the most useful expenditure we could make on defence.

When Sir Thomas Ewing was Minister of Defence, I made a suggestion that was not favorably received by him, though I think its adoption would economize the expenditure on the Permanent Forces, which are composed chiefly of the artillerymen who garrison our forts. My inquiries some years ago led me to believe that we could easily obtain the cooperation of the States in this matter, my suggestion being that it should be made a sine qua non to the appointment of the police that a man had served three years in the Permanent Artillery. There are - again I am compelled to speak from memory - about 3,000 police in Australia. Only a small part of that number would be required for garrison work-, and the bulk could be enlisted as reservists. I have been informed by experts that in three years an officer can sufficiently train an artilleryman, who there after would always be capable of first-class work with very short periods of training. At present we have not even first reliefs for our gun defences, and the adoption of my proposal would make ample provision for the waste of war. Without some provision of that kind I doubt if it is worth while to increase the personnel very materially, because the money which would be required for the upkeep of the extra men is needed for other services. We shall have starved the other services to provide relief for the harbor defences, which may, after all, never be attacked, because any serious attack is as likely to be by land. But the system ought to be used in order to -create available and competent reserves for garrison artillery work, because we shall require the reserves if the forts are ever attacked, and by this means we shall acquire them practically without expense.

When I spoke of economizing in the garrison defence vote I did not mean cutting down the personnel of the existing force, but the giving of better service for the same money. The personnel we already have is too small ; and I should be the last to suggest utilizing such a proposal in order to keep fewer permanent men. We must have, at least, our first relief permanently in occupation of these places.

– Quite the other way.

Mr MATHEWS:

– If I am wrong, I am pleased. Last year the honorable member for Maranoa, who has had military experience in the British Army, secured the inclusion in the amending Defence Act of a provision allowing all grades of the rank and file of the military service to secure clerkships in all branches of the Defence Department, with the exception of the Central Administration. That provision - sub-section 3 of section 63 - is as follows : -

All appointments in the Department of Defence (other than such appointments to the Central Staff as ought, in the opinion of the Governor-General, to be under the Commonwealth Public Service Act 1902) shall be appointments in the Naval or Military Defence Forces, and members of the Permanent, Naval, or Military Forces who have served not less than five years therein shall, in cases of equality of qualifications, have preference over other applicants for those appointments.

This Bill proposes to alter that by omitting the words “central staff,” and inserting the following words: - “Clerical staff of the Central Administration, Pay, and Ordnance Brandies.” That will mean that no military man no matter how able, will be allowed to secure a position in those branches of the Defence Department. Some of the smartest military clerks have come from the ranks, and the British Army authorities encourage the system. Many men who enlist in the rank and file in Great Britain have had College or University educations, and are fitted to hold any of these positions. We can have the same thing in Australia, and yet, after giving the system a trial for less than twelve months, we propose to stipulate that these appointments can be obtained only by those in the Civil Service. Every position possible in the Defence Department should be held by men who are under a discipline Act. I would not care so much about the pay branch, although there are many positions even in that which military men are fit to hold ; but, in all the other branches, positions that ought to be held by military men are being handed over to men in the Civil Service. However, I suppose it is useless for me to suggest an amendment ; but the Minister ought seriously to consider the question. I have known gunners in the British Artillery who showed aptitude for office work to obtain the brevet rank of sergeant, and be placed in the office, where they did credit to themselves and to the army. We have able men who have been in the Military Force for ten, fifteen, or twenty years ; and yet they are to be utterly blocked from appointments in this direction. I trust that we shall get a thoroughly efficient rifle for arming our Defence Force. The weapon at present in use is obsolete and useless in comparison with the rifle used by continental nations. In answer to questions during the session, I have been told that the Defence Department are waiting for the British authorities to fix upon a good serviceable rifle, with automatic action. Our weapon is ineffective, because we cannot use as high explosive power in it as in the case of the continental rifle; and the trajectory is too high. I suppose the’ matter is receiving consideration; but I hope the Department will not delay too long. Great Britain has never yet been prepared for a war. She has often blundered through to victory; but I do not think we ought to leave ourselves in that position ; and if the British authorities take too long to make up their minds in getting a perfect rifle, we ought not to be too proud to adopt one of the continental rifles on our own account. I lament the extension of the period for training to as high an age as twenty-five years; because it will have a baneful effect upon the wage-earning section of the community.

Mr OZANNE:
Corio

.- I have listened with a great deal of interest to the various speeches delivered by honorable members, but it strikes me as a tragic paradox that, whilst the nations of the world are desiring peace, we in sunny Australia should be practically following in the footsteps of those nations by building up a heavy military expenditure. The nations of Europe, in 1906, spent no less a sum than £266,202,845 on their armies and navies. They took men away from their work whose earnings, taking the weekly average at £1 per week, would have represented for the same year a sum of £232,829,800, giving a total of over £500,000,000 expended in preparations for war, or against aggression. It seems strange to me that, instead of endeavouring to follow the example of nations which ave trying to reduce their armaments, we should be practically forced to accept the inevitable and to prepare to defend our country. I do not support the principle of compulsory military training from choice. I have already done my share of compulsory training; and so it is not with any idea of escaping inconvenience that I express my great regret that I have to support the principle. We have, in Australia, a great country, with an area of 2,948,366 square miles. We have a coastline of 12,110 miles, and yet, in that enormous tract of country, we have a population of only 4,275,000 souls, of whom 1,295,000 are males of a fighting age.

Mr Sampson:

– We need to spend a little money in getting more people here.

Mr OZANNE:

– I think we could spend some of this money to advantage in obtaining more population.

Mr Sampson:

– That is a very wholesome remark, coming, as it does, from the Government side of the House.

Mr OZANNE:

– We believe in immigration of the right sort when we have looked, after our own people. I am not so much afraid of the white races, but I recognise that we have placed on our statutebook measures that must create in the minds of coloured races not many miles distant from Australia a feeling of bitter resentment. We have adopted the policy of a White Australia, and have prohibited the introduction of Asiatics. In olden days, when Great Britain was refused an opportunity to trade with any Asiatic country, it forced trade with it at the point of the bayonet, and there will come a time when these races, awakened as they undoubtedly will be to their potentialities, will do the same. Japan has already defeated one white race, and she is now in Manchuria, and also in China, awakening the Chinese. It was all very well for the Consul for China to say that the Chinese are a peaceloving people, and that they are simply going in for a policy of education ; but we have to remember that the Consul-General for Japan stated the other day that, whilst tens of thousands of our young men attended football matches, the people of his country were engaged in training. That was a very menacing statement, and it is for these reasons that I think that :the time has arrived when we should adopt :the system of compulsory military training: In war time, might is the only right that is recognised. Our volunteer system [has been in operation for a great number of years, and I have no hesitation in sayang that it has absolutely failed. Recruiting in Great Britain has fallen away to such an extent that Mr. Hal’dane has been ^compelled to introduce his territorial system. In dealing with the question, Lord Roberts stated that, in order to be effective, training in the Territorial Army must, first «of all, be adequate ; secondly, that it must be compulsory for all able-bodied youths of military age; and, thirdly, that it must take place before, and not after, the outbreak of war. That is the position in Australia to-day. The training must be effec- tive and it cannot be effective under a -volunteer system ; secondly, it must be compulsory, as it will be under this Bill; arid, finally, it must take place before, and not after, the outbreak of war. Under our existing system, we have a force of 25,000 ;men to protect this enormous continent ; and those men, in an emergency, would be called upon, not only to man the forts of the six capitals, but to man any other fortified position, and also be prepared to repel an invasion. It would be absolutely impossible for such a small body of men to carry out that task. Lord Kitchener, in dealing with this state of affairs, reported-

The conclusion I have come to is, shortly, - that the present forces are inadequate in numbers, training, organization, and munitions of war, to defend Australia from the dangers that are due to the present conditions that prevail in the country, as well as to its isolated position.

Australia, in the past, has undoubtedly relied solely on the protection afforded by the British Navy, but we know that in time of war 75 per cent, of the British Fleet would be called upon to- defend the shores of the Mother Country, and I presume that the remaining 25 per cent, could not be spared to assist in our protection. It -is very interesting in this connexion to turn to countries where the compulsory system has been tried on a scale , such as that proposed to be adopted under this Bill “The countries to which I would refer are “Switzerland and Norway. .Switzerland at -the time of the French revolution was divided into a number of cantons. The /French were not satisfied with the system of -government existing there ; and, as the people were not united, they created much havoc and devastation. After the revolution, the Swiss came to the common-sense conclusion that for the better protection of their- country they should introduce the system of compulsory military training, and we to-night are asked to adopt the principle advocated by them. We do not believe in making any class distinction, and we therefore provide that every able-bodied nian, whether he be the son of a king or the son of a cook, shall serve. The objection has been raised by the opponents of this Bill that we are introducing for the first time compulsory provisions ; but I find that section 59 of the Defence Act passed as far back as 1903, provides that -

All male inhabitants of Australia (excepting those who are exempt from service in the Defence Force) who have resided therein for six months and are British subjects and are between the ages of eighteen and sixty years shall, in time of ‘ war, be liable to serve in the Militia Forces.

Under that provision, which has been in operation since 1903, every citizen of Australia in time of emergency would be called upon to serve, and I cannot see that any special disadvantage will be imposed on the citizens of Australia by the measure with which we are now dealing. “In Switzerland, where a large percentage of the population undergoes compulsory military training, one would naturally conclude that, having regard to the long periods of service for which provision is made, there would be no anxiety to make any further provision in this regard. We find, however, that in 1906 Switzerland had 3,732 rifle clubs, with a membership of 222,951. All these clubs are carried on under the volunteer system. In addition, there are what are known as miniature rifle clubs, with a membership of 6,795. Let us contrast the position of Switzerland and England. Switzerland, with a population of some 3,000,000, has 222,951 members of adult rifle clubs and 6,795 members of miniature rifle- clubs; whereas England, with her population of 42,000,000, has only 80,000 members of such clubs. The contrast is so striking that further comment is unnecessary. A Commission which travelled through Switzerland was particularly struck by the puny physique of the children and the fine physique of the men - a fact which goes to prove that the training which the citizens of that country receive- not only fits them to defend their country, but develops them both mentally and physically. Field

Marshal Lord Kitchener, in his report, states that the army of Australia, which has a population of over 4,000,000, should total 80,000 men. On the’ other hand, Switzerland, with a population of only 3,000,000, has 281,000 men serving. Military training there does not start as early as it will in our case, but commences at the age of twenty years. The system consists of three divisions - the Auszug, consisting of men from twenty to thirty-two years of age ; the Landwehr, comprising men of from thirty-two to forty-four years of age, and the Landsturm, consisting of men from seventeen to fifty years of age. There the conditions of service in the militia are more severe than are the conditions which we intend to impose. The Auszug comprises 143,000 men ; the Landwehr, 93,000 : and the Landsturm, 45,000; or a total of 281,000. The Landsturm has not been thoroughly organized, and at the present time there are 260,000 men belonging to the unarmed section. Honorable members will gather from these figures that the vast proportion of the population of Switzerland is being trained to defend the country. One would naturally conclude that, such a vast section of the population being subjected to compulsory service, trade would be thoroughly disorganized ; but, according to A Territorial Army in Being, such is not the case. The author, Lieut. -Colonel C. Delme Radcliffe, writes -

A most careful calculation made by an employer of labour on the basis of the Census returns and the number of males engaged in different pursuits in this country, shows that during the main period of training (the period of three or four months) employers would be deprived of not more than 2.58 per cent, of the nation’s available labour.

I regret that provision has not been made in this Bill for a referendum to be taken, should it be necessary in the near future to increase the number of days of training. Such a step has been found necessary in Switzerland and also in Norway, although the days of training are from 200 to 300 per cent, greater than is proposed under this Bill. The great bulk of the population of Norway consists of agriculturists. There is no nobility, and no capitalistic class there, but the great number of the people are freeholders. If the compulsory system would interfere adversely with industrial conditions, it would be in a country like that, but the experience is that it does not, the writer of the book from which I have quoted giving his testimony that -

No real or serious interference with profession, occupation, or trade exists as the result of the service.

– I regret that a measure such as this should be introduced at a period of the session when the influence of the Government, and, indeed, of members outside the Government, is likely to be exercised in the direction of curtailing debate, and of inducing the House with as little discussion as possible to vote either for or against it. Before the Bill is read a second time, however, I should like to refer to one or two1 features of a question which have more to do than has any other with the condition of Australia at the present time. The subject of defence is so interwoven with every other question which has been or is likely to be brought before the House for some considerable time, that it is almost impossible to touch upon any matter without impinging in some degree upon it. Nearly every Bill that has been dealt with during the present session has had some bearing, either direct or indirect, upon the question of defence, and in one or two cases the legislation submitted has been considered almost entirely 5 from the defence point of view. In its early history Australia relied entirely for its defence upon the Old Country. There was no attempt on the part of our pioneers, small in number and extremely scattered as they were, to take up the question of defence for themselves. They relied solely upon those small bands of trained men who were sent from the Old Country for the express purpose of defending the country. Ultimately the patriotic sentiment of the people became aroused, and the volunteer system was instituted with a limited number of permanent men, mostly for the forts. That system obtained for a considerable period, but it was soon recognised that the work was falling into the hands of a comparatively small percentage of the population, and that it was not being carried out with anything like that effectiveness that was essential if anything like a good defence was to be made in time of emergency. In comparatively recent times the volunteer system was superseded by that of the militia. It is only since Federation that the militia system has been adopted all over Australia, and grave difficulties were encountered by Ministers who took up the question. The right honorable member for Swan was Minister of Defence when the militia system was universally adopted, and he found it extremely difficult to induce members of purely volunteer regiments toagree to what they considered a drastic change in their methods of administration. Some of them pushed their objections to such an extent that even to-day we have in the Commonwealth a number of volunteer regiments which refuse to accept from the State any pecuniary payment for the services rendered by them. All these systems were recognised by those who gave to them more than a cursory examination as being utterly and completely inadequate for our needs. We then had expressed in various parts of the Commonwealth a desire that there should be instituted some system of universal training whereby every able-bodied man would be made to recognise’ his obligation to defend the country of which he was a citizen. It would be difficult to determine where the idea origi.nated, but one of the results of its origination was to cause quite a large number of patriotic Australians - members of the Australian Natives Association - to consider at their annual Conferences this question of universal training. The attitude adopted by that organization has had a great deal to dowith the education of the people with regard to the obligation of the individual citizen to which I have just referred, and in bringing this question to its present stage. The Acting Prime Minister also took a leading part in that movement, and, as a member of the Australian Natives Association, I feel that we owe him a debt of gratitude, not only for the industry and the ability with which he advocated this system of military defence, but also for the still more potent fact that he was able to bring behind him a very large number of men who otherwise would have been the most out-and-out opponents of this system. There is no doubt that the Australian Labour party would have been the most virulent opponents of universal training but for the work done by the present Attorney-General. We have to realize the enormous area over which we shall have to operate should our integrity as a nation be ever threatened. To refer to a familiar illustration, to which reference has been made more than once even during this debate, I would remind honorable members that the Imperial Government found it necessary to send over 250,000 men to South Africa, which in the matter of area and difficulties of transport cannot be compared with Australia. We have had under our old system some 25,000 men who may have been regarded as being more or less trained in the use. of arms. This country, with all its possibilities, and notwithstanding the eager eyes which are now, and have been for a considerable time, turned in our direction, has been relying for its defence almost entirely upon that small body of men. We knew perfectly well, however, that there was another barrier which an enemy would have to. overcome before those 25,000 men would be called upon to act. I refer to the Imperial Navy and the Imperial prestige; but I venture to say that any true Australian, when he gives the matter thought, must feel utterly ashamed of the little he has done to fit himself to carry out his national obligation in this respect. The modern tendency is for individuals to recognise this obligation, and to believe that the best way to secure peace is to be prepared for war. I know that that is an old truism. It is challenged -to-day, but I venture to. say that it cannot be successfully challenged, and is not disputed, by those who have given any attention to the subject. Every one realizes that a man who has a strong house and is strong enough to keep it is in less danger of aggression than a man who has no means of protecting his house. The country possessed of the most up-to-date arms and a devoted and patriotic people trained in their use is less liable to be interfered with than is a- country which relies upon the sufferance of its neighbours, or- on the fact that it is too insignificant to be attacked. I venture to say that countries like Switzerland, which are frequently referred to as examples of this kind, are able to occupy their territory more because of the jealousy of the peoples surrounding them than because of any inherent power which they possess to defend themselves. We should realize that a country like ours is in grave danger from attack if we are unable adequately to defend it from within. I do not contend that by the adoption of universal training we shall warn off all possible invaders, but we shall find in it the foundation of an adequate system of defence. The honorable member for Capricornia gave us one of the most remarkable explanations of the Dreadnought agitation that I have yet heard. He said that it was designed and entered into by the leading newspapers of Australia in order to dish the Labour party. I venture to say that, great as the power of these leading newspapers undoubtedly is - and it is being added to every day by the publication of Labour journals - its influence has not yet been extended to Continental nations, and, at the time referred to, it was scarcely responsible for the feverish activity displayed in the German dockyards. I regret very much that in existing circumstances I cannot speak at length upon this question as I should like to do. I wish, however, to direct the attention of honorable members to paragraph 9 of the introductory remarks in that most admirable report which the late Government were fortunate, and, I think, far-seeing, enough to procure from FieldMarshal Lord Kitchener. He wrote -

The conclusion I have come to is shortly that the present forces are inadequate- in numbers, training, organization, and munitions of war to defend Australia from the dangers which are due to the present conditions that prevail in the country as well as to its isolated position.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee :

Clauses i to 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 (Promotions).

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

.- I move - - “

That the following words be added -. - “21. c. (1.) Officers of the rank of major and upwards on the active list of the Commonwealth Military Forces at the time this Act becomes law shall within two years of the passing of this Act demonstrate to the InspectorGeneral, or to some officer appointed by him for the purpose, their practical fitness for their commands. (2.) Officers, as above, failing to comply with the provisions of this section shall be ineligible to hold any rank on the active list of the Commonwealth Forces higher than that of .captain.”

My amendment is a modified form of one which I proposed in connexion with the

Defence Bill in the last Parliament, and to which honorable members opposite weregood enough to accord their entire support. The amendment which I then proposed was to this effect : Officers rising above the rank, of captain had to pass an examination showing that they had accustomed themselves to the use of arms other than the arms with which they were immediately concerned. In other words, they had to prove their knowledge of other arms of the service. Officers rising above the rank of major had to become, in very truth, field’ officers, and to show themselves competent to command in the field a force of all’ arms. I urged upon the House - and honorable members opposite supported me - that if the provisions of the Bill stood as: they were, and we were to impose these conditions on new officers, we should alsoendeavour to put our house in order in regard to existing officers, and require them, to prove their practical fitness for existing; commands. I moved -

That the preceding sections shall not disqualify any existing officer of the Commonwealth Military Forces for the rank he holds, on the day on which the Act comes into operation, provided he receives, as prescribed, a certificate of his fitness for the said rank from the Director of the Military College within two years, of the establishment of the said College.

Honorable members opposite were unanimous in supporting that proposal. It was,, however, held by the then House to be toosweeping ; and after some debate, in which every member of the Labour party whospoke warmly supported my amendment, we had a division, in which, every one of my honorable friends was ranged on my side.

My present proposal is not so sweeping as that was. I propose to follow the principle of the Act, as proposed to be amended by the present Government, making these stringent proposals as .regards efficiency apply to officers of the rank of major and upwards. The question of proof of fitness in regard to these officers is not one of theoretical examination, as* will, perhaps, be urged by those who, while pretending to favour the theory of this amendment, will say that it will operate unjustly against officers of old standingIt may not be practicable for the InspectorGeneral to test the fitness of every officer in our forces, and consequently I have inserted a proviso which will enable him toappoint a deputy by whom the work will1 be performed. I do not think it is neces-sary for me to say anything more on this’ question. My amendment is not nearly so sweeping as is the preceding clause. It merely asks that officers who in time of war will have, not only high responsibilities upon their shoulders, but the lives of those -who follow them in their hands, shall have attained a certain standard of efficiency. The Bill seeks to demand from future officers of the forces, which will be created some time after the passing of this Bill, a fair standard of military efficiency - a standard which will be decided, not merely by practical tests, but by theoretical examinations. My amendment does not -propose to expose existing officers, from the rank of major upwards, to the humiliation of having to subject themselves to theoretical examinations, but I do ask, in simple justice to their men and to the Commonwealth, that- officers enjoying field rank shall possess, at any rate, a roughandready certificate of fitness, and that they shall not be asked to accept positions on active service which they are not fitted to occupy. I trust that the Attorney-General will accept the amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 5 and 6 agreed to.

Clause 7 (Persons exempt from service).

Amendment (by Mr. Hughes) agreed to-

That the following new paragraph be inserted -

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

– We are dealing with the Citizen Forces. The honorable member is not in order.

Mr KELLY:

– I am certainly in order in making any amendment to the Bill that I may think fit. The mere substitution of the word “ Commonwealth “ for “ citizen “ would cover riflemen.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member has not moved in that direction.

Mr KELLY:

– Then I now move-

That the following words be added to the clause: - “and to members of rifle clubs.” Mr. Batchelor. - This is a new scheme. Mr. KELLY. - This amendment is moved in order to find out what reasons there are for supposing that, in time of war, the members of rifle clubs would not be subject to similar treatment to that which was meted out to the franc-tireurs in France when it suffered a German invasion. I do not want our riflemen to be hanged to the nearest tree, or to be shot at the nearest fence, simply because they are found fighting for their country without a uniform.

Mr KELLY:

– I am merely asking, I repeat, for a Government uniform; and it is up to the honorable gentleman to give it, or show that his after-dinner rhetoric cannot be trusted.

Question - That the words proposed to be added be added (Mr. Kelly’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

Majority to ii

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr HUGHES:
Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General · West Sydney · ALP

– I desire to announce that, owing to an oversight, the source of my information having temporarily dried up, i was not informed that the clothing for the rifle clubs has been provided.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– Could there be a more conclusive argument for reporting progress?

Mr Hughes:

– The understanding; arrived at with the Leader of the Opposition was that the Bill should be takenthrough Committee to-night, and that the honorable member for Parramatta should have the opportunity to speak on the third reading to-morrow.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– There are several matters on which T wish to speak in Committee, and, therefore. I suppose I must persevere. I move -

That the following words be added to the clause : - “ and to junior cadets uniforms shall be supplied as prescribed.”

That is the proposal which the late Government tried to have inserted in the Bill of last year in the Senate, but it was defeated owing to the solid vote of the Opposition, reinforced by a couple of members from our own side. At first we did not propose to clothe the junior cadets. When the last Bill was under consideration varying estimates of the cost were furnished. Some officers stated that it would be £^50,000; others, .£75,000. I see that the estimate has gone up to £200,000 since the present Government took control, and in another year or two it probably will reach .£500, 000. We could very well give the junior cadets a simple uniform which would not cost much, as we propose to recognise them as part and .parcel of ‘ the Defence Force, and train them in miniature forms of soldiery. New Zealand clothes her junior cadets at a cost of about 10s. or 11s. per head, the uniform consisting of a simple tunic, belt, and a cap with a distinctive badge or band. Something of that sort could be adopted here. I do not propose to clothe the junior cadets in the present expensive way, which I understand runs to about 30s. per head, at any rate, in my own State. The senior cadets are already to be supplied with uniforms under the Bill, and an amendment on the lines I have indicated would not involve a very great cost. The advantage to the boys would be very great. I believe to-day they think a great deal more of ‘ their uniform than the adults do, and certainly more than boys of larger ages do. If we are to recognise them as part ana parcel of the Defence Forces we shall do well to minister to the feeling of pride that wells up in their young hearts. In any event, we should be putting ourselves in the good graces of their mothers if we ,gave them a simple uniform as prescribed. However, joking aside, it would not involve a large expenditure, and after the first outlay the annual cost, I suppose, would be only from £7,000 to £8,000. For all the good it would do in ministering to the military spirit of these youngsters, I think it would be desirable. I urge, therefore, that we should follow as far as possible the simple uniform that has “been adopted in New Zealand. There the cadets are all uniformed alike, and the system is in every way beneficial and advantageous.

Mr HUGHES:
Acting Prime Minister and Attorney-General · West Sydney · ALP

.- - The present position is that -.senior cadets wear uniforms as prescribed, and that uniforms are supplied to all mem.bers of the Military Forces. That provision includes, although we did not know it before, members of rifle clubs. I see no reason why we should grant uniforms to junior cadets. They are not soldiers, but school boys. The honorable member for Parramatta, who but a little time ago was a violent opponent of the system of compulsory service, and who, when I proposed “its introduction in 1903, said that it was absurd, has become such a devotee to the 1 -‘business that he desires that little children of from twelve to fourteen shall be dressed in what he describes as uniforms. I submit that a child of from twelve to fourteen may derive the greatest possible benefit from physical training, and I do not think that there is one honorable member who, no matter what his opinions on militarism are, does not think that physical training will do children great good. But what real purpose is to be served by dressing our boys in uniforms ? They are not, and cannot be, soldiers. We have the authority of a soldier for the statement that it is not until a man. has passed through, his years of recruit drill that he is worthy to become a soldier. Why, then, call a boy of twelve or fourteen years of age a soldier <or’ dress him in uniform? There is no necessity for it. The drill which we are going to give children, will straighten them up, expand their lungs, and build them up physically. But uniforms are not essential to that work. We have already incurred certain .liabilities, and are daily incurring other liabilities of a truly portentous character. If we desire to find some* outlet for our money we can discover more legitimate ways in connexion with militarism and in making the fighting machine more effective than that proposed by the honorable member. Nothing that he could suggest in the way of improving the physical health of the children of this country would pass without attention and consideration from this Government ; but in putting a child in uniform we should only be trying to make him think that in some mysterious way he had become a soldier. One of the happiest proposals of my colleague the Minister of Defence is that the junior cadets shall be supplied with neither guns nor uniforms. I have no sympathy with militarism, and would not have a uniform if it were not absolutely essential that soldiers, whilst training, and particularly when on service, should wear some distinctive dress. I do not believe in building up the idea of militarism by clothing little children in uniforms, and I hope that the Committee will not agree to the amendment.

Mr ROBERTS:
Adelaide

.- We have it on record that the chief reason which the honorable member for Parramatta has in view in moving this amendment is that he may stand well in the good graces of the women folk of Australia and those who happen to have boys of from twelve to fourteen years of age. I presume that his desire at present to please the women folk is the outcome of some meetings that he has addressed during the evening, at which possibly it has been intimated to him how pleasing it would be to their mothers’ hearts if their little darlings were clothed in uniforms, supplied with peaked caps, and given a bit of wood called a rifle. That may be an admirable idea from the point of view of the honorable member, who is at present utterly irresponsible, but I do not think that the Committee will accept the amendment, which would involve a very considerable expenditure. We have been given no idea of the cost of this proposal of the honorable member, which is designed to please, possibly, the little boys, and certainly would please the women folk. I should object strongly to putting boys into the half-and-half black-and-white uniform ‘which the honorable member suggests. They are to have caps and tunics and a little belt. I presume that the belt would be used on them on certain occasions, but, so far as their pantaloons are concerned, they may wear, black, green, white, or. red ones. Whilst there might be some degree of uniformity so far as their top dress was concerned, the rest of their clothing would .be of variegated hue. I am unable to believe that the honorable member has seriously moved this amendment. He has no idea of the cost, but believes that a statement has been made that some such uniform, as he suggests, after attending a tea. meeting, would cost from 10s. to ns. a head. How many of these children are we to clothe in uniform, - and on what authority is this estimate of cost arrived at ? By accepting the amendment, we may incur an expenditure of many scores of thousands of pounds.’ It must not be forgotten that boys will be members of the junior cadet corps only whilst they are between the ages of twelve and fourteen years. Such a uniform as the honorable member suggests would not meet with their approval. They would not be proud of it. One boy might attend drill, in summer time, wearing a tunic and a white pair of pants, whilst another poor lad might appear with. a tunic and a black pair of pants with a grey patch on that part on which he sits. In such circumstances we can realize the disgust, not merely of the boys, but of the people who looked at them. The honorable member has not thought out his proposition with any degree of seriousness, and, in the circumstances, it ought not to have been made. In any case, I do not think we could justify the putting of a full uniform on schoolboys of between twelve and fourteen years of age. Let them go in for physical exercise to expand their chests and develop their bodies, and let them look to the period of senior cadetship for a uniform. I hope the amendment will not be accepted.

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

– I should not have again addressed myself to the Committee were it not for the attack which the honorable member for Adelaide has just made upon the honorable member for Parramatta. It was not remarkable for its accuracy or the delicacy with which the subject was handled.-

There is a serious purpose behind the amendment proposed by the honorable member for Parramatta. It marks a line of demarcation between his views and that of the present Minister of Defence as to the treatment of junior cadets. Rightly or wrongly, the present Minister believes that the junior cadets should not be regarded as a part of the Defence -Force. The honorable member for Parramatta takes another view, and believes that the junior cadets should be given some idea of discipline as well as of physical training, and some notion of what will be their duty to the country later on. He holds that the stage between twelve and fourteen years of age is the most receptive period of a boy’s life, and that . if he is then induced to take a pride in some uniform he is likely to make a better soldier afterwards. A uniform is’, symbolic of membership of a particular institution, and if a man is proud of an institution to which he belongs he will take a pride in the uniform which indicates that he is a member of it. The students of German universities wear uniforms which, in the opinion of many people, make them look like stuffed images, but they are proud of them for what they represent. If the Minister will not accept the amendment we need say no more.

I wish to point out that by mention of the fact in this clause that military uniforms for the Citizen Forces are to be provided free of charge, we limit the scope of expenditure in this Wa Y, and next year, if this measure passes, the Department will find that it is illegal to spend money for providing uniforms for members of rifle clubs. I understand now, in spite of the unanimous opposition of their supporters a few minutes ago, that it is the policy of the Government to supply uniforms to members of rifle clubs, but under this clause as it stands we limit expenditure upon uniforms to the Citizen Forces. Members of rifle clubs are not, as such, members of the Citizen Forces, and cannot, if this Bill is passed in its present form, be provided with uniforms. I think that provision should be altered if we are to do justice to the riflemen of Australia.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- The amendment seems to me to be out of order. It certainly is in conflict with’ another part - of the existing Act which, the honorable member does not propose to amend. But if the amendment be in order the honorable member for Parramatta will require to alter another part of the Bill. I point out that sub-section 3 pf section 12 of the Act which the honorable gentleman himself introduced and carried in this House last session forbids the wearing of uniforms by junior cadets. I suggest that in the circumstances the honorable gentleman should withdraw his amendment.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I was aware of the provision to which the honorable member for Coolgardie has drawn attention, and intended to deal with the matter in another, way. I have only a word to say in reply to the ridicule sought to be thrown upon the amendment by the honorable member for Adelaide. The honorable member has little to do when he attempts to throw ridicule upon a proposal of this kind. I always bow to his superior military knowledge, as he knows. An humble private like myself must always be ready to take orders from the General at Head-Quarters. It is a pity also that the honorable member could not abstain from gibing. What I may have opposed in. a former session has nothing to do with the question. To-night he treated me most discourteously.

Progress reported.

House adjourned at 11.37 P m-

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 15 November 1910, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1910/19101115_reps_4_59/>.

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House of Representatives15 November 1910

ADJOURNMENT (FORMAL)

Delay In Installing Wireless Telegraphic Apparatus

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr HEDGES:Fremantle

Mr Mathews:

Mr HEDGES:

Mr Webster:

Mr HEDGES:

Mr Fowler:

Mr HEDGES:

Mr Mahon:

Mr HEDGES:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr HEDGES:

Mr Mathews:

Mr HEDGES:

Mr Batchelor:

Mr HEDGES:

Mr Fairbairn:

Mr HEDGES:

Mr THOMAS:PostmasterGeneral · Barrier · ALP

Mr Fowler:

Sir John Quick:

Mr Fowler:

Sir John Quick:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Austin Chapman:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Austin Chapman:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Higgs:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Joseph Cook:

Mr Batchelor:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Hedges:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Austin Chapman:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr ROBERTS:Adelaide

Mr Fenton:

Mr ROBERTS:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr ROBERTS:

Mr Hedges:

Mr ROBERTS:

Mr Finlayson:

Mr ROBERTS:

Mr Mathews:

Mr THOMAS:

Sir JOHN FORREST:Swan

Mr Fowler:

Sir JOHN FORREST:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr Mathews:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Austin Chapman:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr THOMAS:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Poynton:

Mr THOMAS:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr THOMAS:

Sir John Quick:

Mr THOMAS:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Sampson:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Hedges:

Mr THOMAS:

House of Representatives
15 November 1910

Mr HEDGES:
Fremantle

Mr THOMAS:
PostmasterGeneral · Barrier · ALP

Mr ROBERTS:
Adelaide

Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan

Mr FOWLER:
Perth

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FRAZER:
Minister (without portfolio) · KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Mr ATKINSON:
for Sir John Forrest

Mr WEST:
for Mr. Howe

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr THOMAS:
ALP

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917